Economic power shifting from U.S. to China, Soros says

[Jade]

I respect your opinion, but I disagree on the point that the quality of wealth generated by the CCP is somehow lower than should be expected.

China had a market economy since the 1978 reforms, and most of China's GDP growth comes from the Private sector.

CD, what do you mean by "Private sector" in China?

As regarding quality of wealth creation, China is set to loose around 2% of its total GDP only to pollution this year, discounting other factors such as loss in productivity, cost to health sector etc...

Also, IMO, there is a difference between market economy and free market economy

 

[CardSharp]

^^^^

I'm sick and tired of this myth that China or Chinese culture doesn't allow for innovation of entruperialship. It's a western stereotype based on haughty ignorance of Chinese history. If the Chinese aren't innovative, who the fvck invented these

List of Chinese inventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
take your time, it's a long list.

and these people tend to forget that China invented paper currency, had a complex network of trade that stretched to Rome and back, Chinese business men opened the first restaurants, chartered trading vessels all over the know world, brought Chinese goods to Africa, India, the middle east, europe. Intra-regional trade was facilitated by safe, standardize federal roads in almost every dynasty and canals stretching over a thousand km connected the yellow river with yangtze. This allowed trade to flow to such an extent that entire provinces were able to specialize in only certain cash crops and import whatever food deficit it had from a stable food market.

When communism let off the pressure on markets, the chinese people responded instantly and entrepreneur quickly changed China's economy to a market economy and this all happened from the country side first, it was country people that lead China's reform not the people in the cities. Now if Entrepreneurship wasn't in the Chinese blood, you'd think that the city folks would first have to be taught "how to be entrepreneurs"then thing would get rolling. Well Wrong.

Forgive me but if I had to bet on whose private sector will be stronger in 20-30 years. My bet wouldn't be on India.

 

[CardSharp]

CD, what do you mean by "Private sector" in China?

As regarding quality of wealth creation, China is set to loose around 2% of its total GDP only to pollution this year, discounting other factors such as loss in productivity, cost to health sector etc...

Give me a break. Have you swam the ganges lately? At least China's government is taking the matter serious and have the capability of action.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

CD, what do you mean by "Private sector" in China?

As regarding quality of wealth creation, China is set to loose around 2% of its total GDP only to pollution this year, discounting other factors such as loss in productivity, cost to health sector etc...

Also, IMO, there is a difference between market economy and free market economy

OK I'll clarify and say that China's economy is called a "Socialist market economy" by the government, but outsiders (like the Economist for example) tend to see it as "State capitalism".

Also pollution is unavoidable in the industrial phase.

Look at Victorian Britain and see the level of pollution there. It didn't stop them from becoming one of the most successful empires in history. Everyone experiences heavy amounts of pollution during industrialization.

Hong Kong has a high level of pollution... yet we have the second longest life-expectancy on Earth... second only to Japan (who also industrialized).

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

As long as the US controlls the flow of Resources specially Oil Corridors and has the Most innovative and advanced Military and still invests Billions in Education ,Scientific and Technological Development and R&D , it doesn't matters whos going to takeover US or Whose going to be the Number one Economy. The Chinese still have a long long way to go. Frankly China isnt a Global Player , Its sphere of Influence is limited to certain parts of Asia only.

i wont say that Chinese dont have the potential to become a Global Player, they certinly do have all the necessary traits to be one.

 

[CardSharp]

As long as the US controlls the flow of Resources specially Oil Corridors and has the Most innovative and advanced Military and still invests Billions in Education ,Scientific and Technological Development and R&D , it doesn't matters whos going to takeover US or Whose going to be the Number one Economy. The Chinese still have a long long way to go. Frankly China isnt a Global Player , Its sphere of Influence is limited to certain parts of Asia only.

Ok... What of it? Who's said anything of the sort here?

You're making a straw man argument.

 

[Jade]

^^^^

I'm sick and tired of this myth that China or Chinese culture doesn't allow for innovation of entruperialship. It's a western stereotype based on haughty ignorance of Chinese history. If the Chinese aren't innovative, who the fvck invented these

List of Chinese inventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
take your time, it's a long list.

and these people tend to forget that China invented paper currency, had a complex network of trade that stretched to Rome and back, Chinese business men opened the first restaurants, chartered trading vessels all over the know world, brought Chinese goods to Africa, India, the middle east, europe. Intra-regional trade was facilitated by safe, standardize federal roads in almost every dynasty and canals stretching over a thousand km connected the yellow river with yangtze. This allowed trade to flow to such an extent that entire provinces were able to specialize in only certain cash crops and import whatever food deficit it had from a stable food market.

When communism let off the pressure on markets, the chinese people responded instantly and entrepreneur quickly changed China's economy to a market economy and this all happened from the country side first, it was country people that lead China's reform not the people in the cities. Now if Entrepreneurship wasn't in the Chinese blood, you'd think that the city folks would first have to be taught "how to be entrepreneurs"then thing would get rolling. Well Wrong.

Forgive me but if I had to bet on whose private sector will be stronger in 20-30 years. My bet wouldn't be on India.

You are misunderstanding me. I did not say that Chinese are not innovators or entrepreneurs. The world owes a lot to Chinese inventions. However, IMO, Chinese economy being a planned economy has different characteristics to a capitalist economy. Innovation needs a right environment, and only a capitalist one only can facilitate that

As regarding you bet, I would say the opposite

 

[CardSharp]

You are misunderstanding me. I did not say that Chinese are not innovators or entrepreneurs. The world owes a lot to Chinese inventions. However, IMO, Chinese economy being a planned economy has different characteristics to a capitalist economy. Innovation needs a right environment, and only a capitalist one only can facilitate that

As regarding you bet, I would say the opposite

Planned economy? not since 1980's.

 

[Jade]

OK I'll clarify and say that China's economy is called a "Socialist market economy" by the government, but outsiders (like the Economist for example) tend to see it as "State capitalism".

Also pollution is unavoidable in the industrial phase.

Look at Victorian Britain and see the level of pollution there. It didn't stop them from becoming one of the most successful empires in history. Everyone experiences heavy amounts of pollution during industrialization.

Hong Kong has a high level of pollution... yet we have the second longest life-expectancy on Earth... second only to Japan (who also industrialized).

The problem with "State capitalism" is it will never have capacity to micro manage, and that is where the productivity come from

 

[Jade]

Planned economy? not since 1980's.

By planned economy, I mean everything at the disposal of the government

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The problem with "State capitalism" is it will never have capacity to micro manage, and that is where the productivity come from

You do have a point, and others have said similar things.

However I personally believe, from what I have seen and read etc. that China's economic model is a good one. The economic indicators are looking very positive... not all of them, but most of them.

Anyway, I guess we'll just have to wait and find out.

 

[sensenreason]

^^^^

I'm sick and tired of this myth that China or Chinese culture doesn't allow for innovation of entruperialship. It's a western stereotype based on haughty ignorance of Chinese history. If the Chinese aren't innovative, who the fvck invented these

List of Chinese inventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
take your time, it's a long list.

and these people tend to forget that China invented paper currency, had a complex network of trade that stretched to Rome and back, Chinese business men opened the first restaurants, chartered trading vessels all over the know world, brought Chinese goods to Africa, India, the middle east, europe. Intra-regional trade was facilitated by safe, standardize federal roads in almost every dynasty and canals stretching over a thousand km connected the yellow river with yangtze. This allowed trade to flow to such an extent that entire provinces were able to specialize in only certain cash crops and import whatever food deficit it had from a stable food market.

When communism let off the pressure on markets, the chinese people responded instantly and entrepreneur quickly changed China's economy to a market economy and this all happened from the country side first, it was country people that lead China's reform not the people in the cities. Now if Entrepreneurship wasn't in the Chinese blood, you'd think that the city folks would first have to be taught "how to be entrepreneurs"then thing would get rolling. Well Wrong.

Forgive me but if I had to bet on whose private sector will be stronger in 20-30 years. My bet wouldn't be on India.

I agree with the statement that Chinese are good entrepreneurs.Unless, that was so they couldnt have created a 5 Trillion dollar economy.Its however also true that capital productivity in China is much lower than the US and even India has higher productivity of capital.

This statistic suggests an interesting fact that investors are getting lesser and lesser returns to every dollar they invest. It reflects overinvestment in the economy especially infrastructure.Its a good problem to have..atleast you dont lack the roads and power needed but how will China find new buyers for its goods is a moot point.Back to the entrepreneur question, what is actually alleged is that most of exports to US is actually done by US companies employing Chinese labor in their factories.

I also think, India faces tougher issues to resolve. That is finding internal market size by standardising the market and also developing manufacturing base and infrastructure.

 

[阿叉 摩羅差]

 

[AViet]

I'm sick and tired of this myth that China or Chinese culture doesn't allow for innovation of entruperialship. It's a western stereotype based on haughty ignorance of Chinese history. If the Chinese aren't innovative, who the fvck invented these

The Chinese in the East, like the Jew in the West, by birth, is among the most astute businessmen since ancient history, the whole world know and recognize that, you Chinese need not to be angry at a few controversial opinions.

 

[Dragon Emperor]

A rising Chinese economy is good but recently i heard there are as many as 20 million unemployed graduates in China. In order to provide jobs for those who can't get in China, Chinese govt should consider sending them to work overseas(at the same time try to get tech from other nations from them).

Also, China can help rise its soft power image by helping to build infrastructure and providing jobs to locals in Africa and Mideast to ensure China has support from pro-China nations.