EADS Eurofighter in the MRCA competition Thread

[KEETARP]

Of all 6 contenders, India will be flying atleast 3 aircrafts .
MIG29k - is brother of mig35 already inducted (only one diff no aesa but AESA is to be put on next 29 planes)
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Translated portion-
Radar "Zhuk-AE", intended for placement on a light fighter class, has a reduced number of MRP (to 680), weight about 220 -- 240 kg , Antenna diameter 575 mm . It is expected that the range of detection of air targets will be 130 km May be accompanied by up to 30 air targets and to ensure the simultaneous bombardment of 8 of them. At present, the radar "Zhuk-AE" is in the stage of flight tests, this year is planned to produce two full-size model "Zhuk-AE" for installation on the MiG-35. Thus, Russia's first military airplane with AFAR to reach operational status before 2010. In case of failure to tender the radar "Zhuk-AE", may be installed on the deck MiG-29K/KUB second option (30 planes) for the Indian Navy

Naval MMRCA- any one rafale/f18 or naval typhoon/f35 could be purchased

Airforce- will decide by july which of 6 is coming.(Typhoon fav among media/forums while IAF loves f18)

Seems like india will be only country flying best jets in the world
MIG29 k/ PAK-FA/ SU30mki upgraded to su35 std - Russia
Eurofighter- Europe
Rafale/ F18/ F35- for navy from US/FRANCE

 

[sancho]

Any idea what will be typical mission configuration of eurofighter in
A2A and A2G mission.
My guess is for a2a it will be 3ASRAAM+3METEOR
currently it has ASRAAM+AMRAAM+IRIS-T going with it for germany.
I have no idea of A2G weapons config , anyone help out.

These are planed weapon configs for the EF, if all weapons would be integrated.

Air superiority, with 2 x WVR, 6 x BVR and 3 x fuel tanks:



Air interdiction, with 2 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 2 x fuel tanks, 4 x LGBs and a centerline targeting pod:




These two roles are possible now, with Paveway 2 GBU 10 and 16 (1000 Kg / 500 Kg) LGB, similar to MKIs PGM capability with KAB 1500 and KAB 500 for heavier strikes.
Paveway 4 (250 Kg) are in integration now and should be ready for MMRCA, Paveway 3 (GBU 24, 1000Kg) and JDAM are planed, but not cleared so far.


Multi, or swing role, with 4 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 1 x fuel tank, 2 x stand off missiles and 2 x LGBs:




Not possible, because stand off missile capability aren't integrated yet and it's not decided when it will be. Also the only targeting pod which is integrated now, is it the litening pod that will be carried on the centerline station. But as u can see in the pic, to get a useful range in this role with stand off missiles, EF has to carry a fuel tank, so additional bombs will be dumb bombs only, or must be guided in another way.

SEAD, with 2 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 2 x fuel tanks, 1 x centerline targeting pod, 2 x LGBs and 2 x anti-radiation missiles:



Possible only with LGBs yet, because anti-radiation missiles aren't integrated yet and it's not clear if, or when they will be.


CAS, with 2 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 1 x fuel tank and 18 x anti-tank missiles on multi pylons:




Not possible yet, because Brimstone anti-tank missiles aren't integrated, but it is likely that UK will fund the integration and these could be ready for MMRCA too.


Maritime attack, with 2 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 3 x fuel tanks and 4 x anti-ship missiles:



Not possible yet, because anti-ship missiles aren't integrated yet and it's not clear if, or when they will be.

Source: Eurofighter Typhoon - Swing Role

Now compare this to the capabilities that the Rafale already has, or will have for MMRCA at the same, or even less costs:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-91.html

post 1364

 

[sancho]

MIG29k - is brother of mig35 already inducted (only one diff no aesa but AESA is to be put on next 29 planes)

Also TVC and possibly a bigger nose to integrate the bigger radar. Those specs from the article are from earlier versions, with less t/r modules and diameter, but Russia proposed an improved and larger version for MMRCA, with longer range. It is not clear if they can integrate it in the actual nose, or if there will be changes. Possibly one reason why there is still no single seat Mig 35 available yet.

 

[xuxu1457]

well it seems indians dont bother for anything in south asia but definitely French are enjoing the TOAST they have place a 1 billion + order for upgrading Mirage....this is a good news for French factories

Upgrading one Mirage will cost 35 million$~~

 

[KEETARP]

Upgrading one Mirage will cost 35 million$~~

I explained earlier also it includes weapons package and Advanced targeting pods.
Mica-ir bvr costs more than 2million.
ASRAAM costs more than 1.5 million.
Of 35-38 million atleast 10-12 million are for weapons and pods

 

[KEETARP]

These are planed weapon configs for the EF, if all weapons would be integrated.

Air superiority, with 2 x WVR, 6 x BVR and 3 x fuel tanks:



Air interdiction, with 2 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 2 x fuel tanks, 4 x LGBs and a centerline targeting pod:




These two roles are possible now, with Paveway 2 GBU 10 and 16 (1000 Kg / 500 Kg) LGB, similar to MKIs PGM capability with KAB 1500 and KAB 500 for heavier strikes.
Paveway 4 (250 Kg) are in integration now and should be ready for MMRCA, Paveway 3 (GBU 24, 1000Kg) and JDAM are planed, but not cleared so far.


Multi, or swing role, with 4 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 1 x fuel tank, 2 x stand off missiles and 2 x LGBs:




Not possible, because stand off missile capability aren't integrated yet and it's not decided when it will be. Also the only targeting pod which is integrated now, is it the litening pod that will be carried on the centerline station. But as u can see in the pic, to get a useful range in this role with stand off missiles, EF has to carry a fuel tank, so additional bombs will be dumb bombs only, or must be guided in another way.

SEAD, with 2 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 2 x fuel tanks, 1 x centerline targeting pod, 2 x LGBs and 2 x anti-radiation missiles:



Possible only with LGBs yet, because anti-radiation missiles aren't integrated yet and it's not clear if, or when they will be.


CAS, with 2 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 1 x fuel tank and 18 x anti-tank missiles on multi pylons:




Not possible yet, because Brimstone anti-tank missiles aren't integrated, but it is likely that UK will fund the integration and these could be ready for MMRCA too.


Maritime attack, with 2 x WVR, 4 x BVR, 3 x fuel tanks and 4 x anti-ship missiles:



Not possible yet, because anti-ship missiles aren't integrated yet and it's not clear if, or when they will be.

Source: Eurofighter Typhoon - Swing Role

Now compare this to the capabilities that the Rafale already has, or will have for MMRCA at the same, or even less costs:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-91.html

post 1364

Very well compiled post - Both this and Rafale one .
THnx
And i suspect that if Rafale carries so much armaments both in numbers and verstality, its price with weapons will definately rise to 200+

 

[sancho]

I explained earlier also it includes weapons package and Advanced targeting pods.
Mica-ir bvr costs more than 2million.
ASRAAM costs more than 1.5 million.
Of 35-38 million atleast 10-12 million are for weapons and pods

Plus overhauling the complete airframe (possibly also more payload and weapon stations), new glass cockpit, new radar, EWS, data links and you forgot the most important weapons that must be on offer too, AASM and Scalp!
Both will increase IAF strike capability a lot, till hopefully even more capable MMRCAs will arrive.

Personally I still think it is too expensive and a mix of French and Israeli upgrade might have been better. Possibly radar (EL 2032 for more commonality with LCA MK1 and Sea Harrier), EWS and Python V from Israel and only the rest of France.
Btw, do they really get new targeting pods, or will they keep using the litening pod?

Very well compiled post - Both this and Rafale one .
THnx
And i suspect that if Rafale carries so much armaments both in numbers and verstality, its price with weapons will definately rise to 200+

Thanks!

200 million? No, the Saudi offer was 96 Rafale F2 as a system price (including weapons, spares, training and support) for $8 billions, which means $83 million each in todays transfer rates. F3 could be a bit more expensive, but on the other hand we also buy higher numbers.
Also as I pointed out in the last page of the Rafale compilation, it offers the most chance of customisation for IAF! Kaveri-Snecma engine, Topsight HMS, Indian weapons that perfectly supplement the French weapon pack are some good points to make it more cost-effective. Not to forget that the Mirage 2000 upgrade already will make the same weapons available in IAF that the Rafale would use anyway (Mica, AASM, Paveway, Exocet, Scalp), so the level of commonality depends on IAF only.

 

[KEETARP]

200 million? No, the Saudi offer was 96 Rafale F2 as a system price (including weapons, spares, training and support) for $8 billions, which means $83 million each in todays transfer rates. F3 could be a bit more expensive, but on the other hand we also buy higher numbers.
Also as I pointed out in the last page of the Rafale compilation, it offers the most chance of customisation for IAF! Kaveri-Snecma engine, Topsight HMS, Indian weapons that perfectly supplement the French weapon pack are some good points to make it more cost-effective. Not to forget that the Mirage 2000 upgrade already will make the same weapons available in IAF that the Rafale would use anyway (Mica, AASM, Paveway, Exocet, Scalp), so the level of commonality depends on IAF only.

Well i based my prices on BRAZIL's offer- 10.2 billions for 36 fighters of which 4.2 for spares , support , logistics , for next three decades.
It still gets 6 billion for 36 fighters + weapons that comes close to 180 - as my estimation was.

Meteor at a base price of 4 million per piece - without taxes is very expensive.
And the RDY-2 is an excellent radar , if you look at its rendering is Top class,
SAR mode,terrain avoidance,ground mapping represent a quantum leap

 

[saurabh]

Well i based my prices on BRAZIL's offer- 10.2 billions for 36 fighters of which 4.2 for spares , support , logistics , for next three decades.
It still gets 6 billion for 36 fighters + weapons that comes close to 180 - as my estimation was.

Meteor at a base price of 4 million per piece - without taxes is very expensive.
And the RDY-2 is an excellent radar , if you look at its rendering is Top class,
SAR mode,terrain avoidance,ground mapping represent a quantum leap

The initial 36 fighter deal was worth ~4 billion. The new, over 10 bill deal is for 120 fighters.

 

[KEETARP]

The initial 36 fighter deal was worth ~4 billion. The new, over 10 bill deal is for 120 fighters.

Brazil AF Chief: Fighter Pick By End Of March idrw.org
This is the latest news
Source for your figures plz, bcoz its news to me.
Believe me , no one can deliver 120 planes in 10 billion with full TOT+AESA.

 

[sancho]

Well i based my prices on BRAZIL's offer- 10.2 billions for 36 fighters of which 4.2 for spares , support , logistics , for next three decades.
It still gets 6 billion for 36 fighters + weapons that comes close to 180 - as my estimation was.

Meteor at a base price of 4 million per piece - without taxes is very expensive.
And the RDY-2 is an excellent radar , if you look at its rendering is Top class,
SAR mode,terrain avoidance,ground mapping represent a quantum leap

Got your point now, but still don't forget the numbers!

Rafale in Brazil is on offer for only 36 fighters, at a stystem price of possibly $10,2 billions. Saudi offer as I said, was 96 fighters for a system price of $8 billion and our competition is for at least 2 squarons more!
Higher numbers will reduce costs, be it the unit cost of the fighter itself, or the unit cost for weapons and imo IAF has the advantage to customise the Rafale more (Kaveri-Snecma engine, weapons), which can reduce cost even more than in Brazil.

Didn't say the RDY radar is bad, but IAF already more Israeli techs and systems, so getting them for M2K could have been a chance to reduce the upgrade cost, as well as the total logistic cost of the fleet.
Just thinking about the present logistic and maintenance makes me
Mig 21, Mig 27, Mig 29, Su 30, M2K, Jags, means 6 different fighters, with 6 different radar and engines, so getting more commonality between LCA MK1 and Mirage 2000 would have been a good idea to reduce the costs a bit.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

Upgrading one Mirage will cost 35 million$~~

i was also laughing like you before i put my head into this and than i thought indians are clever

The upgrades include:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/Sl44HkDnZyI/AAAAAAAAHlM/KpwqoeGAPYk/s1600-h/2-733912.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/Sl44H2gVqzI/AAAAAAAAHlU/fq-ke7P3aZA/s1600-h/3-735766.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/Sl44IqZ_zJI/AAAAAAAAHlc/aS1gvyCmajY/s1600-h/1-738380.jpg

- New avionics, including an advanced navigation system, mission computers, Mil 1553 B data with Digibus, a pulse doppler radar that can find objects out to 70 nautical miles

- Two displays and an advanced head-down display in a glass cockpit

- Electronic warfare systems, including new radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, an integrated missile warning receiver with continuous time-to-impact information, and new jammers and countermeasure systems

- Increased fuel capacity

- Four Derby beyond-visual-range missiles

- Two short-to-medium-range Python V missiles

- Long-range smart munitions

- Full mission simulators

The upgraded aircraft will have a warranty of 24 months or 360 operational hours.

 

[sancho]

i was also laughing like you before i put my head into this and than i thought indians are clever

The upgrades include:

2-733912.jpg (image)

3-735766.jpg (image)

1-738380.jpg (image)

- New avionics, including an advanced navigation system, mission computers, Mil 1553 B data with Digibus, a pulse doppler radar that can find objects out to 70 nautical miles

- Two displays and an advanced head-down display in a glass cockpit

- Electronic warfare systems, including new radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, an integrated missile warning receiver with continuous time-to-impact information, and new jammers and countermeasure systems

- Increased fuel capacity

- Four Derby beyond-visual-range missiles

- Two short-to-medium-range Python V missiles

- Long-range smart munitions

- Full mission simulators

The upgraded aircraft will have a warranty of 24 months or 360 operational hours.

This confirms more weapon stations on the fuselage right? Also only Israeli AAMs, no Mica? If that is true, the Jags will get Python V for sure too.

 

[saurabh]

Brazil AF Chief: Fighter Pick By End Of March idrw.org
This is the latest news
Source for your figures plz, bcoz its news to me.
Believe me , no one can deliver 120 planes in 10 billion with full TOT+AESA.

Well now I am confused, may be your source is correct..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/33453-rafael-wins-brazil-mmrca-competition.html

http://www.swedishwire.com/business/895-saabs-brazilian-combat-jet-deal-is-slipping

http://www.siasat.com/english/news/sarkozy-brazil-fighter-jet-bid-looming

Brazil's air force has not given a price tag for the 36 jets, which it hopes to have delivered by 2014. But the private Agencia Estado news service said it could be between $2.2 billion and $2.5 billion.

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times





Berlin: European aerospace consortium Eurofighter GmbH will submit its bid price this month for hard-selling 126 of its advanced fourth generation fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF), a top consortium official said Wednesday.

Eurofighter completed the field evaluation trials of its medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) Typhoon in April.

"We are submitting our bid to the Indian government for the IAF order later this month. The flight trials of the supersonic strike fighter have been successfully completed in two phases, which began in February," Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini told IANS here.

The consortium is one of the six contenders for the prestigious IAF order, estimated to be about $10 billion.

The IAF plans to acquire 18 of these in ready-to-fly condition, with the remaining 118 being manufactured by the Indian defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under technology transfer and licensed production, to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 fleet and enhance its strike capability.

The US-based Lockheed Martin F-16s and Boeing's F/A-18IN Super Hornet, French D'Assault's Rafale, Swiss SAAB's Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are the other five bidders for the MMRCA order.

"We had demonstrated Typhoon's outstanding operational capabilities during the flight trials when experienced IAF test pilots flew two of them under specific Indian conditions starting in Bangalore Feb 22," Casolini said at the 100th Berlin international air show on the outskirts of the German capital.

The IAF has formed two teams of two test pilots each for flight trials. In the first phase, the technical evaluation was completed in early 2009 after the six vendors responded to its request for proposals (RFP) in 2008.

The fortnight trials included flying the twin-engine Typhoons at Jaisalmer in Rajasthan and Leh in the northern border state of Jammu & Kashmir to demonstrate its desert and high altitude capabilities in early March.

In the run-up to the trials, the shortlisted IAF test pilots and engineers had undergone extensive training in Germany.

"The final phase of flight trials were conducted in Europe to test the fighter's cutting edge weapons systems and advanced sensors. The exercises included dropping precision guided munitions and launching air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles," Casolini added.

Eurofighter used two Typhoons of the German Air Force's squadron 73, which is based at Laage in northern Germany.

The consortium flew in three twin engine canard-delta wing Typhoons to the Bangalore international air show (Aero India) in Feb 2009 to showcase its awesome strike capabilities.

As the new generation real multi-role/swing-role combat aircraft, 220 Typhoons are already in service with the air forces of six nations - Germany, Italy, Spain, Britain, Austria and Saudi Arabia.

The Eurofighter consortium consists of four partner firms Alenia Aeronautica/Finmeccanica in Italy, BAE Systems in Britain, EADS CASA in Spain and EADS Deutschland in Germany.