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'Each Soldier Carries About 40 kg In Battle': Why The Army Cannot Downsize

I am just wondering what happened to F-INSAS after all these years :what:
Well question is whether we want well equipped and supported number of troops or keep recruiting ill equipped platoons, companies or batallions.
@Joe Shearer Question, how wide spread is the use of the Tavor in the Indian military? I heard a rumor a while back that India was seriously considering it as a new standard rifle, across the board.
India is the largest user of Tavor outside Israel which has ts own version zittara. In the end it all depends on our own efforts which are still in development phase. Personally i would like tavor to be our standard rifle. May its already on its way to be one, who knows.
 
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No, what is being asked of the IA is to trim redundant SUPPORT staff ie orderlies, cooks, porters etc.
If i were to count the number of helpers/batmen bhaiya in every unit then there are hardly 9-10 of them in each unit. Cooks: 2-3 soldiers in the jawan's mess and the same number in officer's mess.
The Indian Army currently has about 30000 soldiers serving as batmen. I am in favour of abolishing this sytem but against reducing the number of soldiers.

I am quoting Gen GD.Bakshi...

A) Technology as a Substitute for Manpower:

This was first articulated in the pre-Kargil context, when defence was facing a serious resource crunch. The need was for the armed forces to seek a rise in the defence budget from a mere 1.2 percent of GDP to at least 2.5 to 3 per cent. Instead the top brass of that era came up with fanciful theories of downsizing the army (to please their political masters); and to generate more funds for modernisation. The downsizing mantra was borrowed from the Americans, who themselves came to grief in Iraq and Afghanistan for lack of adequate boots on ground (they have since increased the size of the US army and marine corps). The downsizing led to near disaster in the Kargil War when orders to disband the Mule and Pioneer companies had to be hastily rescinded.14 These were urgently needed resources and the move to demobilise them proved to be very unrealistic and unsound. Despite this glaring shock, intellectual dishonesty led some sections of the brass to persist stubbornly with their pet hobbyhorse of downsizing. The brutal fact was that India’s threats came from LICs in mountains and jungles. These are heavily manpower intensive requirements. After the Kargil war, some 30 additional battalions of the RR had to be raised post haste (so much for downsizing). The internal security (IS) threat envelope has only been pushed exponentially since then. To the proxy war in J&K and the insurgencies in the Northeast, has been added the threat of jihadi terror in the whole of India and now the very serious threat of LWE (Left Wing Extremism) in the tribal areas of central and peninsular India. At the time of Operation Blue Star, and later, the diversion of our strategic reserves to Sri Lanka; the need had been felt for a six division sized force for internal security tasks. Thanks to the proxy war in J&K, we were forced to raise a final total of some six divisions worth of the Rashtriya Rifles.
B) Technology as Add-on to Manpower: (something that I favour :) )The second school of thought stems from the realisation that India today is in the midst of a major demographic youth bulge. By 2026, our population will overtake that of China and 68 per cent of this will be in the working age group. India will have the youngest population in the world and the average age of an Indian will be just 29. India will have the highest RMP (Recruitable Male Population) in the world. India, in fact, will be hard pressed to generate some 800 million jobs for our youth.14 Downsizing in such a context can be an unmitigated recipe for disaster. We will add to the ranks of the unemployed and provoke serious internal conflicts. Any force restructuring strategies therefore must exploit our key strength which is youthful manpower and a massive work force. By just increasing our share of GDP for defence from 2.5 to 3 per cent (which is the global norm for major powers), we could exploit our manpower assets and make them so much more lethal with technology as an add-on. There is no scope for an either-or equation. We simply need both manpower (which is our key resource) and technology. To get motivated manpower, we need to popularise the military ethic in this country. China’s regular armed forces number 1.4 million, compared to our 1.2 million. The Chinese People’s Armed Police (PAP) tasked for IS tasks also number 1.4 million. These are not police forces but demobilized PLA units. India has some 60 battalions of RR and some 45 battalions of the Assam Rifles as the only genuine paramilitary forces for IS tasks. Keeping in view the exponentially rising threat of LWE (which clearly is beyond the operational capability of CRPF and even the BSF), realistically, India must raise six more infantry divisions for this task. These could be blooded in CI operations against the Naxals, and later provide the manpower for two additional strike corps for the Himalayan theatre. Such a force accretion alone can give us a decisive advantage over Pakistan (and a deterrence capability against China). If Pakistan tries to keep pace, it could torpedo its economy. It would also help us to transit from dissuasion to a robust deterrence on the Chinese front.

source

@Abingdonboy
Just realised that we both are always on the opposite side of a debate. :lol:
 
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A BPT (Battle physical test) conducted in every 2 month on Unit level,jawans and officers have to run 5 km under 30 mins with full load,young jawans do it in 20 mins,and after 45 years there is hardly any carrier left for a Jawan/JCO in the field,thus most of them retires.
 
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@Joe Shearer Question, how wide spread is the use of the Tavor in the Indian military? I heard a rumor a while back that India was seriously considering it as a new standard rifle, across the board.

Don't ever - EVER - overlook the procurement puzzle, and don't overlook the vested interests, those who need to make money out of this. It isn't about technology or about fighting effectiveness any more; hasn't been for some time, but now it's beginning to get overlaid with an ideological justification for fiddling the figures. They did it, so we need to do it to right the balance, kind of thing.
 
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Don't ever - EVER - overlook the procurement puzzle, and don't overlook the vested interests, those who need to make money out of this. It isn't about technology or about fighting effectiveness any more; hasn't been for some time, but now it's beginning to get overlaid with an ideological justification for fiddling the figures. They did it, so we need to do it to right the balance, kind of thing.
Sooooo, that's a no?
 
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@Taygibay

Defence sales chap: Sir, what we have for you today is a new lighter and longer lasting radio battery. Excellent for lightening the load on infantry allowing them to focus on the task at hand rather than just being pack mules.

High ranking procurement chap: Well, that sounds great. I think we will go ahead with the procurement.

DSC: Excellent.

HRPC: Wait a second there ol chap. What are we going to do with the old batteries?

DSC: Well we can do a trade. Give us your old ones and we will give you the new ones.

HRPC: Absolutely not. That would be an outrageous waste of taxpayer money. I've got an idea, we will only issue the new ones for ops....happy days.

Months before HERRICK infinity tour after Terry takes back Helmand and moves on Kabul

Company Quartermaster Serjeant: Right you scrotes, what we've got 'ere is the new Bowman battery. It's lighter and longer lasting. So, you'll be able to carry MORE of them while you're out there,

Poor old Froggy: You've got to be ****** kiddin me. Why in the **** did I join the infantry.

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Improving technology can be a great thing sometimes. But if you're in the infantry if something is lighter it usually means you're going to end up carrying more of the new stuff or more of something else.
 
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The Indian army has the worst mindset of all the branches. Harley innovative and futurists in its outlook. It has much to gain and learn. The seniors at least before were stuck with a British Raj persona...expecting to be waited hand and foot by other staff, including officers! Never forget what one US military personnel said after training with the army. Things here are done vastly different. She was pointing to the way peers are treated and subjects dot menial BS. Sometimes, I wonder if some sort of 1940's mentality still exists in the service?
 
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Excellent fake summary there @Frogman mate! We should have a thread for these as I have
just seen a few on the F-35 this week but not Joke thread, more like a Mil Sarcasm 101 one!

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. Fake might be an exaggeration in and of itself, it probably happens like that quite often.

P.P.S. As long as I'm making an off-topic answer, I'm very glad that you're back @JoeShearer! :tup:
 
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