Hyperion
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In you most wisest of suggestions, what would be an "optimal" solution for India? Please, do enlighten us....... 
Each MiG-35 to cost only $30 mil for the Russians. Is the IAF listening?
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he-man
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In you most wisest of suggestions, what would be an "optimal" solution for India? Please, do enlighten us.......
India has various options...............worst case scenario is MIG-35
On the otherhand pakistan's future is jf-17!!feel the diff??
By the way can u tell me approx no of jf-17 made?
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SOURCE: INDRUS
More than a year after the French Rafale won the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) dogfight, a contract is nowhere in sight forget the delivery date. Not only is it the usual drawn-out drama that comes with Indias defence acquisitions, it is also clear the French have overpromised on the technology transfer provisions and now want to welch out.
The delay in the signing of the MMRCA contract, along with the high-octane upgrade of the Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-29 Fulcrum and the advanced state of gestation of Indias fifth generation fighter, the Sukhoi PAK-FA, are creating a situation where the Rafale seems superfluous to Indias defence requirements.
The biggest game changer is the ongoing upgrade to the IAFs Fulcrum fleet which will convert them to the MiG-29SMT. This means these aircraft will now be on a par with the advanced MiG-29M. The MiG-29SMT upgrade will represent a major step forward for the aircraft on multiple fronts, says Air Force Technology.
Most Indian Fulcrums are MiG-29Bs, downgraded by removing Russian IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) and datalink equipment, and a subpar radar. (This is standard practice by all manufacturing nations which reserve the most advanced versions for their own defence forces while exporting stepped down models.)
The IAF has speeded up the MiG-29B upgrade programme because of two factors.
One, an impending fighter crunch. Hundreds of MiG-21 interceptors and MiG-23 interceptors and fighter bombers have been retired, and the long-serving MiG-27 ground attack fighter wont be around very long. The 118 British Jaguars which have been highly accident prone may also have to be withdrawn from their deep penetration roles in view of the improvement in air defences in Indias neighbourhood.
Secondly, Indias Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, which was to have filled the void created by the MiG-21s exit, remains flight shy. The three-decade long programme is suffering from all sorts of problems, leaving India with a huge gap in its light interceptor fleet.
MiG-29 on steroids
Defense Industry Daily (DID) reports the 62 upgraded MiG-29s 54 single-seat fighters and 8 trainers will join the Mirage-2000 fleet in the IAFs multirole middle-tier category. This is a category that is above the MiG-21s/27s and below theSukhoi-30 MKIs. The upgrade will change their role from air-superiority planes to full multirole fighters with modern air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons.
The planes will be fitted with upgraded weapons and a new avionics suite, including the Phazatron Zhuk-ME radar. The Zhuk-MEs acquisition range has increased 1.5 times. It also adds terrain following mode, and ground target acquisition including high-resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) to obtain a better picture than is possible with conventional radar.
After the $964 million upgrade, the Fulcrums are expected to remain in service for 10-15 more years, with their safe flight-hour lifetimes extended from 25 years/2,500 hours to 40 years/3,500 hours.
The IAF is also bulking up its middle tier by upgrading its 51 Mirage 2000s to a standard similar to the latest Mirage 2000-5. Flying with new radar and new weapons, the upgraded fighters can be expected to serve until around 2030.
Including aircraft under order, Indias Sukhoi-30 MKI fleet is currently pegged at 272. It is an impressive number for such a high-end and expensive weapons platform. This shows a keen sense of judgement by the IAF, which realizes that 100 percent fleet utilisation is impossible and having a large number of aircraft around is the key to getting the job done.
These aircraft will be the high end of Indias air power, and can be expected to remain in the force past 2030, and are competitive with or superior to top-end European fighters and American F-15 variants, says DID.
Even allowing for the inevitable delays with India insisting on various customisations Sukhois fifth generation stealth fighter will be entering service well before 2030. Under these circumstances, the Rafale is too late to the party.
Rafale: Reasons for buying
To be sure, the primary reason for selecting a Western aircraft ahead of more potent Russian alternatives is to reduce dependence on one vendor country.
The other objective is to acquire the full technology suite of a modern aircraft for local production. French technology is being pitched as the magic potion that will save the Tejas programme, while also providing a large boost to aerospace and defence electronics industries in India. Basically, it will allow India to move up from screwdriver technology to building entire fighter aircraft from scratch.
But will Dassault, which builds the Rafale, oblige? The French newspaper LUsine Nouvelle cites complex electronics, and especially the Thales AESA radar, as being difficult to transfer. The Delhi-based Daily Pioneer predicts a stream of news reports that weve already heard a thousand times before will come out telling us how unprepared our institutions are to receive this technology.
There is no reason for the IAF to accept a downgraded Rafale. In view of the massive fall in living standards in the West in general and mass unemployment in France in particular, it is France, not India that has to compromise. The alternative for Dassault is the closure of its Rafale plant. Someone should sit with the French and show them the mirror.
The IAF is clear that it does not want to repeat the story of the HF-24 Marut fighter the first Indian supersonic aircraft which was developed in the 1960s by HAL and the freelancing German aerospace engineer Kurt Tank. Like the Tejas, the Marut too was an underpowered aircraft that was quietly retired.
If the French do not deliver the technology, there is no point spending billions on sterile imports unless someone in the vicinity of South Block is seriously committed to kickbacks.
Rafales costs may defy gravity
Another problem with the Rafale is the ballooning cost. The MMRCA was a requirement of the 2000s but the extended competition has inflated costs to stratospheric levels from $10 billion a decade ago to around $20 billion, according to the New Delhi-based Institute for Defence Studies & Analysis (IDSA). Plus, nobody reckoned with the falling rupee, which has also increased the cost per plane.
DID believes the 100 or so Rafales would offer some compatibilities with the upgraded Mirage 2000s, but will come at about twice the Sukhoi-30 MKIs price. If budget pressures intervene and Tejas continues to lag, India could be forced to buy a less expensive mid-tier plane instead, it says.
That plane could well be the MiG-29SMT. Its variant, the MiG-35 could easily replace the Rafale if India scratches the MMRCA and opts for a government to government deal instead.
Need for spending wisely
Acquiring the Rafale at such a prohibitive cost is extravagance which India cannot afford at a time when economic growth has hit an embarrassing 5 percent and the rupee is in free fall. While it was presumed a few years ago that funds for defence would not be a constraint in the future, a slowing economy has led to these funds being curtailed, says the IDSA. The writing on the wall is clear: resource constraints are looming for the armed forces.
When advanced Russian aircraft are available for less than half the price of the Rafale, it would be prudent to wait before signing on the line that is dotted. The money can be better spent on beefing up the Tejas programme. For the kind of cash we are talking, there is a hell of a lot of red hot technology that cash strapped defence companies in the West will part with.
Does mig 29 has 6 primary hard points ? I dint know that
More than a year after the French Rafale won the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) dogfight, a contract is nowhere in sight forget the delivery date. Not only is it the usual drawn-out drama that comes with Indias defence acquisitions, it is also clear the French have overpromised on the technology transfer provisions and now want to welch out.
The delay in the signing of the MMRCA contract, along with the high-octane upgrade of the Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-29 Fulcrum and the advanced state of gestation of Indias fifth generation fighter, the Sukhoi PAK-FA, are creating a situation where the Rafale seems superfluous to Indias defence requirements.
The biggest game changer is the ongoing upgrade to the IAFs Fulcrum fleet which will convert them to the MiG-29SMT. This means these aircraft will now be on a par with the advanced MiG-29M. The MiG-29SMT upgrade will represent a major step forward for the aircraft on multiple fronts, says Air Force Technology.
Most Indian Fulcrums are MiG-29Bs, downgraded by removing Russian IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) and datalink equipment, and a subpar radar. (This is standard practice by all manufacturing nations which reserve the most advanced versions for their own defence forces while exporting stepped down models.)
The IAF has speeded up the MiG-29B upgrade programme because of two factors.
One, an impending fighter crunch. Hundreds of MiG-21 interceptors and MiG-23 interceptors and fighter bombers have been retired, and the long-serving MiG-27 ground attack fighter wont be around very long. The 118 British Jaguars which have been highly accident prone may also have to be withdrawn from their deep penetration roles in view of the improvement in air defences in Indias neighbourhood.
Secondly, Indias Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas, which was to have filled the void created by the MiG-21s exit, remains flight shy. The three-decade long programme is suffering from all sorts of problems, leaving India with a huge gap in its light interceptor fleet.
MiG-29 on steroids
Defense Industry Daily (DID) reports the 62 upgraded MiG-29s 54 single-seat fighters and 8 trainers will join the Mirage-2000 fleet in the IAFs multirole middle-tier category. This is a category that is above the MiG-21s/27s and below theSukhoi-30 MKIs. The upgrade will change their role from air-superiority planes to full multirole fighters with modern air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons.
The planes will be fitted with upgraded weapons and a new avionics suite, including the Phazatron Zhuk-ME radar. The Zhuk-MEs acquisition range has increased 1.5 times. It also adds terrain following mode, and ground target acquisition including high-resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) to obtain a better picture than is possible with conventional radar.
After the $964 million upgrade, the Fulcrums are expected to remain in service for 10-15 more years, with their safe flight-hour lifetimes extended from 25 years/2,500 hours to 40 years/3,500 hours.
The IAF is also bulking up its middle tier by upgrading its 51 Mirage 2000s to a standard similar to the latest Mirage 2000-5. Flying with new radar and new weapons, the upgraded fighters can be expected to serve until around 2030.
Including aircraft under order, Indias Sukhoi-30 MKI fleet is currently pegged at 272. It is an impressive number for such a high-end and expensive weapons platform. This shows a keen sense of judgement by the IAF, which realizes that 100 percent fleet utilisation is impossible and having a large number of aircraft around is the key to getting the job done.
These aircraft will be the high end of Indias air power, and can be expected to remain in the force past 2030, and are competitive with or superior to top-end European fighters and American F-15 variants, says DID.
Even allowing for the inevitable delays with India insisting on various customisations Sukhois fifth generation stealth fighter will be entering service well before 2030. Under these circumstances, the Rafale is too late to the party.
Rafale: Reasons for buying
To be sure, the primary reason for selecting a Western aircraft ahead of more potent Russian alternatives is to reduce dependence on one vendor country.
The other objective is to acquire the full technology suite of a modern aircraft for local production. French technology is being pitched as the magic potion that will save the Tejas programme, while also providing a large boost to aerospace and defence electronics industries in India. Basically, it will allow India to move up from screwdriver technology to building entire fighter aircraft from scratch.
But will Dassault, which builds the Rafale, oblige? The French newspaper LUsine Nouvelle cites complex electronics, and especially the Thales AESA radar, as being difficult to transfer. The Delhi-based Daily Pioneer predicts a stream of news reports that weve already heard a thousand times before will come out telling us how unprepared our institutions are to receive this technology.
There is no reason for the IAF to accept a downgraded Rafale. In view of the massive fall in living standards in the West in general and mass unemployment in France in particular, it is France, not India that has to compromise. The alternative for Dassault is the closure of its Rafale plant. Someone should sit with the French and show them the mirror.
The IAF is clear that it does not want to repeat the story of the HF-24 Marut fighter the first Indian supersonic aircraft which was developed in the 1960s by HAL and the freelancing German aerospace engineer Kurt Tank. Like the Tejas, the Marut too was an underpowered aircraft that was quietly retired.
If the French do not deliver the technology, there is no point spending billions on sterile imports unless someone in the vicinity of South Block is seriously committed to kickbacks.
Rafales costs may defy gravity
Another problem with the Rafale is the ballooning cost. The MMRCA was a requirement of the 2000s but the extended competition has inflated costs to stratospheric levels from $10 billion a decade ago to around $20 billion, according to the New Delhi-based Institute for Defence Studies & Analysis (IDSA). Plus, nobody reckoned with the falling rupee, which has also increased the cost per plane.
DID believes the 100 or so Rafales would offer some compatibilities with the upgraded Mirage 2000s, but will come at about twice the Sukhoi-30 MKIs price. If budget pressures intervene and Tejas continues to lag, India could be forced to buy a less expensive mid-tier plane instead, it says.
That plane could well be the MiG-29SMT. Its variant, the MiG-35 could easily replace the Rafale if India scratches the MMRCA and opts for a government to government deal instead.
Need for spending wisely
Acquiring the Rafale at such a prohibitive cost is extravagance which India cannot afford at a time when economic growth has hit an embarrassing 5 percent and the rupee is in free fall. While it was presumed a few years ago that funds for defence would not be a constraint in the future, a slowing economy has led to these funds being curtailed, says the IDSA. The writing on the wall is clear: resource constraints are looming for the armed forces.
When advanced Russian aircraft are available for less than half the price of the Rafale, it would be prudent to wait before signing on the line that is dotted. The money can be better spent on beefing up the Tejas programme. For the kind of cash we are talking, there is a hell of a lot of red hot technology that cash strapped defence companies in the West will part with.
Does mig 29 has 6 primary hard points ? I dint know that
Agnostic_Indian
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BLING
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IAF has both . With infrared homing
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he-man
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This article is bullshit
1)mig-29smt maybe mig on steroids but has nothing compared to rafale
2)Zhuk-me is not some highly advanced radar claimed in the post...it is a simple slotted array with modest detection range of 120 km for 5m2 target,,,,compared to rafale's RBE2AA Aesa
3)It has no passive warning system like spectra on rafale
4)It just has a basic irst,OLS-UM with max range of 45 km compared to rafale's irst with 140 plus km range
5)Author says that mirage 2000 upgrade will have many things similar to rafale...........ya right
6)mig-29k and mig-29smt will have 9 hard points and not 6
7)The rwr and maws of mig-29 could be described in one word only..........average
Points i agree with
1)Rafale is too costly
2)Without a tot there is no value in getting rafale
3)we are already very late for contract
4)french are bargaining hard and probably don't want to give key technologies
5)In the current scene when we are going for pakfa and lca mk1 and mk2...............this may not be the best time to splurge so much
Problem---We need an omnirole aircraft and su-30,mig-29,lca and pakfa are none capable enough in air to ground mode and the main purpose of rafale was to replace mig-27 and jaguars
5)
1)mig-29smt maybe mig on steroids but has nothing compared to rafale
2)Zhuk-me is not some highly advanced radar claimed in the post...it is a simple slotted array with modest detection range of 120 km for 5m2 target,,,,compared to rafale's RBE2AA Aesa
3)It has no passive warning system like spectra on rafale
4)It just has a basic irst,OLS-UM with max range of 45 km compared to rafale's irst with 140 plus km range
5)Author says that mirage 2000 upgrade will have many things similar to rafale...........ya right
6)mig-29k and mig-29smt will have 9 hard points and not 6
7)The rwr and maws of mig-29 could be described in one word only..........average
Points i agree with
1)Rafale is too costly
2)Without a tot there is no value in getting rafale
3)we are already very late for contract
4)french are bargaining hard and probably don't want to give key technologies
5)In the current scene when we are going for pakfa and lca mk1 and mk2...............this may not be the best time to splurge so much
Problem---We need an omnirole aircraft and su-30,mig-29,lca and pakfa are none capable enough in air to ground mode and the main purpose of rafale was to replace mig-27 and jaguars
5)
BLING
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Tejas MK 1 will be delivered by mid 2014 (official) Tejas MK 2 must be as good as Rafale ! with Aesa radar and other upgrades . We can buy maximum 4 SQ of rafale . than 183 . When we have Tejas , Super Sukoi upgrades and FGFA going on !
he-man
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read my above posts to see whats the truth
BLING
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Tejas fighter is better multirole fighter than Air to air role . Tejas MK 2 will be a ripoff ! We must go for maximum upgrade for tejas MK2 and mass produce it ! 60 Rafale will be more than enough with mirrage 2000 (UPG) Jag(UPG) Tejas MK 2
I did . Thnk u
In this case i like IAF to go for EF than Rafale as they said they can deliver 1st batch in few moths of contract. EF is best of all 4+ gen fighter till date.
he-man
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as u can see even i find rafale costly but comparison with tejas is null and void simply because not even tejas mk1 has got a foc............which is expected at the end of 2014
So where does the question of betting on mk2 arise??
Do u believe what HAL says??well i don't
he-man
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BLING
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Its upto you to belive HAL or not . But as of now its official statement of HAL. And if Tejas MK 1 yet to get foc it doesnt mean it dont exist . MK1 has performed for what it is built for . with more than 2500+ flight test without any accident . IAF must go for atleast 100 MK 1 . Pathetic when they are ready to fly on cofins till 2016/18 and with upgraded mirage 2000/ jags . Matter of fact is that Tejas MK1 is new gen fighter jet . I dont know what made you to think Tejas is NULL when compared with Rafale . Which is so pathetic too . I agree rafale is better as its in diffrent league . But tejas was to replace MIG 21bs . Tejas MK 2 will be roled out next year too . Even if it takes 2 years for FoC (Which will far less then MK 1) Its good move to order 200+ mk2 than 183 Rafale
he-man
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About mk1
1)engines are underpowered.......limits the abilities
2)only 8 hardpoints
3)no irst
4)radar el/m 2032 is an average radar
5)old design
But the main point is its a point defence fighter and is gonna replace mig-21
It is not meant to be a multirole fighter
On mk2
I will comment when i see one
BLING
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Tejas MK 1 is to replace MIG 21bs . Tejas MK1 is far better fighter than IAF's mirage 2000 and Jags .
On MK 2 : Rafale will be delivered from 2017 by the time we will have matured MK 2 with Aesa + upg . 183 rafale is not a good choice on any front .Money or strategy . 105 million per Rafale is with out weapon system i guess . Tejas can have better upgrade even at 70 million
Su 35 & Mig 35 is old design too . So give some credit to Tejas .It deserves it
Hal Druv is old design too . Wait and watch it to create History in years to come buddy
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