Drone Strikes, now diplomatic weapons - By Asim Aquil (Op Grp submission)

[Irfan Baloch]

In the article I read on new york times yesterday and posted here on PDF. It was the attack on Kabul which stopped them from apologies.

Think from their perspective if they strongly feel PA/ISI is helping Haqqani target them in Kabul, why will they feel bad for salala.

This is not my opinion, but just trying to put forward what other side might be thinking.

dear friend

for a moment I forget your nationality and consider you my house mate and a friend so let me be frank now

for every single attack in Kabul and every single breach of their security, where Taliban are able to launch attacks on their green zones and red zones and come in with bombs in their turbans etc. Americans are blaming Pakistan what they have shown so far as an evidence is an interview of an alleged taliban commander who is not even a Pasthon but a Hazara who admits that he got training from ISI

see that program on BBC, the plot is so badly written that it can only be classified as comic not even a Z movie. what I am saying is since the OBL attack, all we have got is accusations and blames, an accusation and assumption posted by one media outlet is then used by another and presented as proof, recycled and reused by third and hence shown as a concrete proof,.

the only moment Pakistan is spared an accusation is when Afghan soldiers have turned their guns on the occupation force but I wont be supposed that one day Paneta will come with a brain wave from his back side that Pasha was using mind control techniques to make those Afghan soldiers attack the occupation forces.


so what I am talking about you say?

I am saying its all garbage.... accusing Pakistan of Kabul attack hence deciding not to apologise

lets not kid ourselves and fool around shall we?

we know its about being a super power and they never apologise and we accept that. even expecting an apology from America is dishonouring the dead because the Salala attack was premeditated not spontaneous.

I have my friend and cousin coming to me saying that BLA and TTP have standard American issued weapons including Ap bullets and C4 explosives that even out troops dont have. so lets cut the crap here shall we?

Americans are hiding far more skeletons in their closet here. but all they have against Pakistan is half arsed accusations

just because they are sprouted out day in and day out from almost every western media outlet my dear, bholay, innocent and cute friends buy it as a gospel truth.

the war is still going on in Afghanistan, there are parts of Afghanistan that have become no go areas for occupation troops due to the constant resistance of the Taliban. after every few months they mount a spectacular attack that has a lot of shock value against the occupation forces. in response the occupation forces rain hell on the population, brutalise the Afghan men and humiliate the women and top it off with drone strikes on Pakistan with an occasional fire on the Pakistani positions that are meant to stop the inflow of the Afghan taliban into Pakistan.

and so.. my dear innocent, bholay brother friend .. the bickering continues.

 

[DGMO]

Why does the US bear the brunt of the criticism when it comes to drone strikes and not our govt or military? Surely they are to blame for the whole fiasco?

All the articles seem to bash the US for what it does, but if there is genuine rage from Pakistan, then where is the outspoken attacks on drone strike from the PPP or military? Where is the boycott of military cooperation? Cancellation of NATO-Pakistan meetings? Pull-back of troops from the Afghan border? Shooting down of UAV's which we're capable of?

The drone strikes happen because of a nod from both the civil-military leadership that it's fine to take place. The mild squealing is just theatre for public consumption.

The deaths of civilians will continue, and depending on how others view it, IMO, the blood of those innocents lies much closer to home than many seem to believe.

The US is doing what it can get away with, because we ALLOW it to. The fault does not lie at their feet IMO, it lies at our own.

Never forget Gilani's remarks on the subject:

“I don’t care if they do it as long as they get the right people. We’ll protest in the National Assembly and then ignore it.”

The problem is, the right people are not dying Mr Prime Minister.

 

[batmannow]

Guys get a grip, plz!
In soviet war era , PA have seen , more thn what's going on now, bt only difference! Is media reporting & good financing ,at tHose time, it was mostly , westren media & pro-pakistan, westrn finance to beat , soviets out of afghanistan?
Right now, our high-militry & political leadership, is worried about, our finances & just, because of our crupt political leeder ship, mr. Kiyani is holding, his horses back?
Now because , of our support of US, without any conditions, US is trying , to get advantages , & conspirating against, pakistan? Which is more than its, so called ! WOT ?
Its a demand, in which we, hve been told to give co-opreation to attack, on a oil-rich muslim state, which is having , dangerous designs against, one of greatest, US allies.

ISI chief has cancelled his planned visit to USA, & chinese FM, is due to come to islamabad today, comming, 3 days are important.
All , I can say, is if, again we can get good finances, from! One & only, surplus economy. Of the world, we can get rid of , uncle sam, north korea & iran are, good examples for us, all this false prapoganda by media & discussions of benificial democrazy, were imposed by uncle sam, can be burried, under the sand of our unity, against the, heavist agresion by, only superpower of the world.
Just bring in super will, like great chinse nation,& we can win over, anyone?
We can.clear our skies , from the dam drones! If we hve , good stratagic partners.

 

[Pakistanisage]

The war crimes of the US should be challenged in the World court.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The war crimes of the US should be challenged in the World court.

presided and chaired by whom?
prosecuted by whom?

 

[Bhairava]

Kiyani have put up commendable stand against US after the Salala incident; (a) access to Shamsi Air Base denied; (b) Supply routes to Afghanistan denied from Pakistani territory for long term basis; and (c) intelligence related cooperation stopped.
.

Why is that any commendable move is attributed to the Army and anything that is to be critiqued is put on the heads of the democratic govt ?

 

[Supply&Demand]

The war crimes of the US should be challenged in the World court.

and they will accuse u of harboring terrorists...then they will line up number of countries to testify against Pakistan's duplicity in war on terror


then what will u do...???

 

[SBD-3]

and they will accuse u of harboring terrorists...then they will line up number of countries to testify against Pakistan's duplicity in war on terror


then what will u do...???

They did use this ploy recently saying that NATO partners are annoyed on the blockade of supply route, but still nothing happened. In fact the roles played by various NATO countries are very limited as most of the countries continue to insist for their withdrawal.
Its not that the NATO are outnumbered, they dominate taliban by atleast 7 times (140K vs 20K), yet the graph shows how successful this dominance has been lately

Interestingly Americans do acknowledge that the bordering area is much difficult to control, yet the expect PA to be supermen who would be able to petrol this area.
And lastly, Its all personal interests. America wants to dictate the game on his own terms, but they have left Afghanistan once in deep **** (post Soviet invasion). Americans have never promised that they are there in the interest of afghans but their own. Its obvious that Pakistan wants to hold its cards in case the Americans repeat the history. Secondly as far as Hafiz Saeed is concerned, Americans have never shown any significant interest in his profile since there isn't anything but "doziers" which contain more allegations than proofs. They always bring a lollypop for their Indian counterparts so that they may have a good visit to India on their record. Even American officials got embarraced when somebody asked them that the location of Hafiz Saeed is well known since he is not hiding like OBL so why didn't US take any action given the bounty on his head.

 

[F-16_Falcon]

Pakistan is no iraq or afghanistan...These drone strikes wont happen if pakistani army really wanted them to stop.They are in some sort of secret agreement with Americans ever since pak army gave permission for drone strikes and alowed drone base(without the knowledge and permision of pak civilians).

My question is if our army has secret agreement with another country to allow bombing Pakistan why we need an army?

US can do whatever they want but we should fight against them.

 

[PakiRambo]

My question is if our army has secret agreement with another country to allow bombing Pakistan why we need an army?

US can do whatever they want but we should fight against them.

Drone strikes get rid of militants in the NorthWest. Even though innocents are murdered in the process, the country is still being cleaned from militant presence.

GoP & Pakistan Army let the US do the dirty work for them instead.

 

[batmannow]

Drone strikes get rid of militants in the NorthWest. Even though innocents are murdered in the process, the country is still being cleaned from militant presence.

GoP & Pakistan Army let the US do the dirty work for them instead.

Gota keep a cool head!
Let's trap, this biggest of all ,white elephant?

It will be a slow, process bt, it will ensure, the much needed & much Disscused,action & question, answered by, our armed forces!
Just read this!
Chinese FM calls on President Zardari
*Chinese FM calls on President Zardari - thenews.com.pk

Updated 4 hours ago From Web Edition *

By APP
ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari on Tuesday emphasized the need to fast-track implementation of Pak-China agreed projects in areas of energy, mining, infrastructure, IT, communication, agriculture and others for the mutual benefit of the two countries.
*
He also proposed establishment of trans-border economic zones for shared development and prosperity of Gilgit-Baltistan and western regions of China and for setting up an umbrella corporation in the energy sector called "Pakistan-China Power Corporation" which should include specialists and entities from all the fields.
*
This he said during two rounds of meetings with visiting Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi here at Aiwan-e-Sadr.
*
Spokesperson to the president Senator Farhatullah Babar while briefing about the meeting, said that the president thanked the Chinese Government and its leadership for their unswerving and continued support to Pakistan's sovereignty, territorial integrity and multifaceted assistance at all hours of need.
*
He said that the Pakistani people highly valued their brotherly relations with the Chinese people and were eager to learn from the Chinese experience of growth and development.
*
The president while recalling his previous visits to China said that each of his visits offered a unique experience of learning.
*
He said that Pakistan was keen to translate its traditional equation with China into economic terms and attached great importance to enhancing economic and trade linkages with China.
*
He said that the enhanced economic engagement of the two countries was an encouraging development and the two countries needed to fast-track implementation of mutually agreed projects for the mutual benefit of the people.
*
While expressing satisfaction over the increased bilateral trade, the president remarked that there was still a great margin which could be explored for further enhancing the trade volume.
*
He said that China may send frequent purchase missions to Pakistan to help reduce the current trade imbalance.
*
Terming the conclusion of bilateral currency swap agreement a major development between the two countries, the president said that ICBC's decision to open its branches in Pakistan was another positive development to enhance trade and investment.
*
He hoped that the National Bank of Pakistan would also be able to open its branch in China soon.
*
The President said that Pakistan was passing through a challenging phase in the energy sector.
*
He said, "We greatly appreciate Chinese assistance and investment in the energy sector."
*
The President expressed the hope that the 2nd Joint Energy Working Group meeting, which was held in Islamabad on May 7-8 would open new vistas of cooperation in the energy sector.
*
He said that in order to promote people-to-people contacts, there was a need to focus on increasing rail, road and air connectivity. He said that the two sides may consider initiating commercial flights between Islamabad-Kashgar to facilitate greater connectivity.
*
Discussing regional situation, the President said that Pakistan as an important player and China as a source of regional stability, had great roles to play in promoting regional stability and development.
*
He said that the trilateral dialogue recently initiated by the foreign ministers of Pakistan, China and Afghanistan offered new opportunities for enhancing mutual cooperation.
*
He said that Pakistan fully endorsed China's call for the SCO and existing multilateral mechanisms to play their full role in the region for promoting peace, stability and development.
*
The president said that extremism and militancy was a common enemy and should be defeated by joint efforts and mutual cooperation.
*
The president also thanked the Chinese Government for its assistance in searching the martyrs of recent Siachen avalanche.
*
The Chinese Foreign Minister thanked the President for meeting and assured his government's continued support to Pakistan.
*
He reiterated China's firm commitment and support safeguarding Pakistan's sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity.
*
He said China would continue to support Pakistan on all regional and international platforms and thanked Pakistan for its unstinted support to China on critical issues of concern to Beijing like Taiwan.
*
He said that his visit was intended to further enhance and consolidate the strategic partnership between the two countries.

A apology, or a slow bt , lethal war is waiting for our enemy, & yes drones will going, to fall too.

 

[Solomon2]

"It’s quite shameful that that these days drone strikes are carried out just to send political messages to Pakistan and not serve any military means."

The timing of this column could scarcely be worse; front-page newspaper reports out of Washington today are of how President Obama approves lethal drone strikes personally after weighing their military necessity vs. the likelihood of mistakes or innocent civilians getting killed.

As I've pointed out numerous times, under UNSCR 1373 Pakistan has the sovereign obligation - as in duty, not something it can choose not to do - to root out terrorists, etc. Demonstrable failure to act - as in North Wazirstan - thus means there is no internationally recognized violation of Pakistani sovereignty when others cross into Pakistani territory to attack terrorists.

That your own leaders don't explain this to you shouldn't be a surprise. You know they lie to you about what happens in Pakistan, even where you can check their veracity, so why should you expect them to tell the truth about what happens outside of Pakistan where checking them is even more difficult? Still, I'm amazed that even the most intelligent Pakistanis here can't seem to understand what it means that no other country is taking Pakistan's side in the sovereignty debate.

If the Security Council isn't yelling publicly at Pakistan for its sloth, that may have something to do with the fact that UNSCR 1373's investigative arm, the Counter-Terrorism Committee, has classified country reports (which as a practical matter primarily means Pakistan nowadays) for the past six years - but perhaps it is time that changed?

 

[ARIZ ZAFAR]

Diplomatic cards will not do alone. if we would have been something close to what china , Iran or even india is we would have been at better position . the problem is we are dependent on US , like it or not. they can do armtwisting whenever they want. even the army chief can't do much. when we are getting billions of dollors. if we don't get that money it will be impossible for us to even sustain our country for a month. we have oil reserves for just 3 days in case of war. even defense forces will feel the heat. so we need to take corrective decision in country's favor by not being too rigid. at the same open up the back channel to sort out these problems.

 

[PakistaniandProud]

Excellent posts by Asim and Bilal, keep them coming!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

"It’s quite shameful that that these days drone strikes are carried out just to send political messages to Pakistan and not serve any military means."

The timing of this column could scarcely be worse; front-page newspaper reports out of Washington today are of how President Obama approves lethal drone strikes personally after weighing their military necessity vs. the likelihood of mistakes or innocent civilians getting killed.

The timing could not be any better, since a lot of the US Establishment lies and duplicitous 'legal justifications' for drone strikes are being highlighted - from the same NYT article:

"... Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent."

In fact, the US Establishment claims of 'minimal or no civilian casualties' are shown as lies within the same article:

"This counting method may partly explain the official claims of extraordinarily low collateral deaths. In a speech last year Mr. Brennan, Mr. Obama’s trusted adviser, said that not a single noncombatant had been killed in a year of strikes. And in a recent interview, a senior administration official said that the number of civilians killed in drone strikes in Pakistan under Mr. Obama was in the “single digits” — and that independent counts of scores or hundreds of civilian deaths unwittingly draw on false propaganda claims by militants."

Note the reference to 'number of civilians killed in drone strikes in Pakistan in single digits', and try and reconcile that with the earlier commentary:

"Just days after taking office, the president got word that the first strike under his administration had killed a number of innocent Pakistanis. “The president was very sharp on the thing, and said, ‘I want to know how this happened,’ “ a top White House adviser recounted."

Various independent Pakistani and Western organizations have also researched and documented significant civilian casualties in drone strikes under Obama's watch - one high profile case was the vindictive drone strike carried out by the CIA that massacred 38 innocent Pakistanis, after Raymond Davis was released.

As I've pointed out numerous times, under UNSCR 1373 Pakistan has the sovereign obligation - as in duty, not something it can choose not to do - to root out terrorists, etc. Demonstrable failure to act - as in North Wazirstan - thus means there is no internationally recognized violation of Pakistani sovereignty when others cross into Pakistani territory to attack terrorists.

You have pointed out, numerous times, nothing but a theory/interpretation concocted out of thin air - there is no language in UNSCR 1373 that authorizes the use of military force by the US/NATO on Pakistani territory, without Pakistani authorization. You have failed to quote any language from the resolution that even remotely supports your concocted theories.

On the issue of drone strikes, Pakistan has offered alternatives in the form of joint drone strikes, Pakistan operated drone strikes and PAF strikes, all of which have been rejected by the US - which means that the argument that the 'US is forced to conduct unilateral drone strikes because of no other option' is complete hogwash, given the proposed Pakistani alternatives.

That your own leaders don't explain this to you shouldn't be a surprise. You know they lie to you about what happens in Pakistan, even where you can check their veracity, so why should you expect them to tell the truth about what happens outside of Pakistan where checking them is even more difficult? Still, I'm amazed that even the most intelligent Pakistanis here can't seem to understand what it means that no other country is taking Pakistan's side in the sovereignty debate.

What is clear, as shown in the first part of this response, is that it is the US leadership spouting bald faced lies about both the legality of drone strikes and the civilian casualties in those strikes.

Here is the statement by the DoD 'defending the legality of drone strikes':

“the unmanned drones and its missile strikes operated by the CIA are “lawful and precise” and that they operate within the confines of American law and policy”

http://tribune.com.pk/story/386112/...ort-shows-commander-in-chief-signs-kill-list/

What is notable here is the omission of any reference to international law and/or the UN/UNSC Resolutions as 'legitimizing US drone strikes in Pakistan' – the latter forms the basis of the majority of the criticizm directed at the US Drone Strike Program, especially in Pakistan.

‘American Law and Policy’ might as well ‘declare’ that ‘China’s FOREX Reserves are the property of the US’, that does not make ‘American Law and Policy’ consistent with international law and the UN Charter nor does it give the US any legal right to forcible take over Chinese FOREX Reserves.

Therefore, the position that the US has no international legal authority (nor any authority under the UNSC resolutions on Afghanistan and/or the WoT) to conduct drone strikes inside Pakistani territory without the consent of the GoP, remains a valid one.

More on the US Establishment being exposed with its pants down when it comes to its bald faced lies on the legality of drone strikes in Pakistan and the claim of 'minimal to no civilian casualties':

“The CIA was angry”​

Hitherto the impression was that the United States’ drone attacks on Pakistani villages in Waziristan were counter-terrorist operations with a purpose. Now comes a rare peep into the range of factors that motivate the CIA when it orders the drone strikes. The AP exclusive is, to put it mildly, shocking. At least some of these drone attacks were apparently in the nature of the CIA’s revenge acts against the ISI. The famous drone attack of March 17, which killed 38 innocent people attending a tribal jirga, it now transpires, was indeed a revenge act for the detention of the ace CIA operative Raymond Davis for 7 weeks in custody in Lahore for killing in cold blood two persons. The chilling words of a US official, quoted in the AP story: “It was in retaliation for Davis. The CIA was angry.”

Isn’t it a war crime? Yet, then CIA boss Leon Panetta who ordered it has had a ‘promotion’ and is now Barack Obama’s defence secretary. Those 38 souls wouldn’t have known when they gathered to settle a land dispute at the jirga that Panetta and his CIA boys were so angry with the Pakistani military that they were going to be slaughtered as sacrificial lambs. It stands to reason that army chief Parvez Kayani made out the US’s motivation behind the war crime. It was a rare occasion when he publicly voiced criticism of a drone attack - that the jirga was “carelessly and callously targetted with complete disregard to human life.”


“The CIA was angry” - Indian Punchline

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/123292-cia-war-crimes-terrorism-pakistan.html