Drone Strikes, now diplomatic weapons - By Asim Aquil (Op Grp submission)

[Awesome]

We seriously need to question COAS Kiyani, he should be bring to the justice and hang immediately because of numerous reasons we know. And also we need to investigate how much money in Kiyani's Swiss bank account.

After Salala incidents, there were in orders of shoot down drones. Shamsi Air base was closed, so new direction of drones where deploy?

If our hindsight was 20/20 I am sure they would have shot down at least one drone by now, the question is what will happen next and how much do we need to fear this uncertainty?

I think we should have shot one down very early, now its a big issue.

Problem is internally we are not moving against the drones, there has to be ample build up to shooting down a drone so that the US can be countered at the UN level that "hey we toldya it would come to this".

Right now there are daily drone attacks and not a peep from Zardari and Gilani about taking them down? Why the same nonsense that we are against them, it should not happen, they are counter productive - Say we are coming to get them knocked out!

 

[SamranAli]

two more today. Do they have free licence to attack?

 

[VelocuR]

My gut feeling agrees that Kayani deserves some jootay in all of this, but you see from a legal point of view he has himself covered.

The constitution of Pakistan says:

#1 Pak Armed forces will defend Pakistan
#2 All defensive actions will be under the directions of the federal government.

So you have to first start with pressurizing the federal government, let Kayani come out in the open in defence of the drones in defiance of the federal government. Then the judicial process can be considered.

The pressure on the federal government is useful and force them to stand firm except Kiyani to me doesn't do anything no matter how much we pressure on him. Since COAS Kiyani refused to act on North Waziristan but who gave permit to use drone attacks? government or Pakistan Army green signal?

The one who ordered to shut Shamsi Air base was Kiyani, not federal government. Deploying new air-defence and shoulder missiles (i.e Anza) during Pakistan-Afghanistan was made the decision by Kiyani.

If our hindsight was 20/20 I am sure they would have shot down at least one drone by now, the question is what will happen next and how much do we need to fear this uncertainty?

I think we should have shot one down very early, now its a big issue.

Problem is internally we are not moving against the drones, there has to be ample build up to shooting down a drone so that the US can be countered at the UN level that "hey we told ya it would come to this".

Right now there are daily drone attacks and not a peep from Zardari and Gilani about taking them down? Why the same nonsense that we are against them, it should not happen, they are counter productive - Say we are coming to get them knocked out!

By shooting down one drone will create more tensions between US and Pakistan. It is very difficult to describe the drones or the purposes. Does it benefit Pakistan to reduce militant activities or save Pakistan Army ? Another benefit for US to pressure Pakistan to follow the demands or kill more civilians without seeking permission?

If first drone down, I am certain next thing it will happen US decide to suspend drones and abandon it. US will inform the world, Pakistan is protecting terrorists and militants under the North Waziristan. How can we explain it? Pakistan doesn't want to act to shoot US stealth helicopter raid and same goes to drones. We already had enough fear the worst year in 2011.

My solution for Pakistan is to create new armed-predator drones in order to replace US predator drones. It show us we are working to destroy common terrorists havens instead US angers. And I think PAF must scramble to the sky to monitor drones activities and data records. It just let them know we are watching and limits their acts or intercept them.

 

[Oldman1]

If our hindsight was 20/20 I am sure they would have shot down at least one drone by now, the question is what will happen next and how much do we need to fear this uncertainty?

I think we should have shot one down very early, now its a big issue.

Problem is internally we are not moving against the drones, there has to be ample build up to shooting down a drone so that the US can be countered at the UN level that "hey we toldya it would come to this".

Right now there are daily drone attacks and not a peep from Zardari and Gilani about taking them down? Why the same nonsense that we are against them, it should not happen, they are counter productive - Say we are coming to get them knocked out!

Should have, could have. Question is why they letting it happen. Could they be supporting it? Didn't they allow drones to be based in Pakistani in the first place? Hmm...

 

[Jango]

I think it is high time that the Pakistani government comes clean on everything, if there is a deal, then say it, and give the facts, if no deal, then go to UN and start doing some of our own lobbying, start giving our own POV, and make the UN aware of what is happening.

 

[Awesome]

Should have, could have. Question is why they letting it happen. Could they be supporting it? Didn't they allow drones to be based in Pakistani in the first place? Hmm...

I don't think they want to support it any more, but who in the Pakistani leadership has the guts to stand up to the US?

 

[LeGenD]

We seriously need to question COAS Kiyani, he should be bring to the justice and hang immediately because of numerous reasons we know. And also we need to investigate how much money in Kiyani's Swiss bank account.

After Salala incidents, there were in orders of shoot down drones. Shamsi Air base was closed, so new direction of drones where deploy?

When you are in commanding position, you assess the geopolitical scenario in a very different manner.

Kiyani have put up commendable stand against US after the Salala incident; (a) access to Shamsi Air Base denied; (b) Supply routes to Afghanistan denied from Pakistani territory for long term basis; and (c) intelligence related cooperation stopped.

These drone strikes are unilateral in nature. CIA have planted or hired many informants on our soil. Some members are too proud to accept this.

Question is not about stopping drone attacks. PAF have the capability to so. Question is about consequences. Pakistan is already reeling from issues of terrorism and poor economic condition. Enmity with another powerful nation will be not good for Pakistan. India is already enough.

 

[batmannow]

Bogus. Fears !
Iran brought down one of these creatures, wht hAppenend thn?
For our higH commAnd , they are hAppy thAt , they hve Stopped nAto, Supllies, & itS enough, let tHe drones kill, So our so called, Kept going on?
I gusss, its the wrong policy, like this crupt democrazy, dececion is off course, from the high command , bt our high command, hve forgotten, the morale & expectations of the, pakistani people, from our high command, & forces.
WhAt ever happens, PAF should target, A couples of drones, to realize , americAns that, they have accept, pakistAn a real partner in WOT.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

why do they carry out these strikes?


because they can

why does the US president lie in the face of the world?

because he knows he is going to get away with it. (ref claiming a member of his death squads as a US diplomat )

why do Americans want to negotiate with Taliban and want Pakistan to continue to fight the Afghan Taliban?

because they can

why Americans will continue to cause deaths to the civilians fo Pakistan & Afghanistan?

because they can


the failure to subdue the will of the Afghan Taliban has to be blamed on someone else and it Happens to be Pakistan. justification?

--well OBL was found there


-but how did he get there? may I ask?

--Silence

-why was he and his entourage allowed to escape from the Tora Bora siege?

--Silence


after taking away "treasure trove of high value information" from Abbotabad has there been any valid and strong evidence come up that shows complacency of the Pakistani state?

--None-

-only accusations and half arsed argument that "SOMEONE MIGHT" have known.

-so question again. its been a year, are you geniuses able to actually pinpoint it to a general a colonel or a major yet?

--well OBL couldnt have lived there on his own

- I ask again, is there any thing that can be used as an evidence that Pakistani state was involved in his hiding?

--well Pakistan punished the guy who helped finding him.

-he acted unlawfully by working for a foreign entity in secret you damn fool!! you guys punish your own whistle blowers by giving them life sentences.

besides how can a punishment of a sell out be used an an evidence of OBL cover up?

--because we can


Well, so can Taliban, again and again in your green zones.

 

[Developereo]

Didn't Germans just killed a bunch of civilians around the tankers awhile ago? The U.S. had to suffer for that. It was embarrassing.

Ultimately, the top command center has to take responsibility.

When you are in commanding position, you assess the geopolitical scenario in a very different manner.

Very true. The view is very different when you have to consider the consequences for millions of lives and the country's future.

Kayani knows better than anyone the full capabilities of Pakistan and America, and what will really happen if a shooting match breaks out. The issue is not just with America, but the aftermath -- India, Afghanistan, and the rest of the region.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Should have, could have. Question is why they letting it happen. Could they be supporting it? Didn't they allow drones to be based in Pakistani in the first place? Hmm...

might is right

they cant stop them even if they want

valid question in the end yes

drone strikes were mutually agreed against the high value targets

but since the release of RD, CIA is on a blatant killing spree

attacking funerals, weddings, open air tribal gatherings, mosques with absolute no regard for human life.

thats where the problem is.

in the past ground intelligence was passed by Pak agencies and CIA executed the strikes but there was a change of heart and CIA started unilateral and provocative attacks.

a case is made that some high value targets were tipped off by Pakistan in Advance. but that absurd because there is no Military/ intel presence in NW where the Haqqanis are allegedly operating.

so all such tip- offs are impossible. secondly drones already operate there anyway. if they divert their attention from killing civilians in funerals and weddings then there is a chance that this war will end soon.

“At your Christmas, Bagram is alit and bright, on my Eid, even the rays of the sun are dead, suddenly at midnight, your bombs bring the light to our homes, even the oil lamps are turned off,” writes a Taliban poet named Khepalwaak.

 

[indiatester]

attacking funerals, weddings, open air tribal gatherings, mosques with absolute no regard for human life.

thats where the problem is.

That is what is written off as collateral damage. There are enough number of people who complain about it, but for US military, it is justified use of force to eliminate a threat to them.
Pakistani Army is to only act if there is external aggression or threat of war. From what has been going on, it does not seem as if USA is invading Pakistan or threatening war.

drone strikes were mutually agreed against the high value targets

in the past ground intelligence was passed by Pak agencies and CIA executed the strikes but there was a change of heart and CIA started unilateral and provocative attacks.

a case is made that some high value targets were tipped off by Pakistan in Advance. but that absurd because there is no Military/ intel presence in NW where the Haqqanis are allegedly operating.

so all such tip- offs are impossible. secondly drones already operate there anyway. if they divert their attention from killing civilians in funerals and weddings then there is a chance that this war will end soon.

C'mon. You don't expect everyone to believe that. If Pakistani security forces do not have intel presence in those areas, someone is not doing their job properly.
I'd argue that even now, the targets would be mutually agreed. I can't see a case where Pakistan is completely out of the loop. A few missions, may be. But over all this whole drone strike strategy can't proceed without continuous Pakistani monitoring and approval.

 

[GoodBoy]

Please overthrow Zardari and PPP?

Someone in Pakistan should organize a massive rally and raid his house.

Once PTI is in power, they will change the momentum.

Since you are a "PakiRambo" you should start the charge.Let's hope when you see backwards there is a crowd following and not just yourself.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

C'mon. You don't expect everyone to believe that. If Pakistani security forces do not have intel presence in those areas, someone is not doing their job properly.

no I dont expect people to pull the thumb out of their arse and address the constant pain they are suffering because its their choice to be stubborn and see the world in one dimension. specially when they enjoy the disparity (in terms of power) in their favour then they would rather live with that pain and just blame "somebody" rather than get up and pull the thumb off from their arse where their brain seems to reside.

as far as not doing the job properly is concerned I cant agree more and I thank you for that. if the CIA, NSA, FBI & homeland security guys were doing their job "properly" then those 911 terrorists wont have been able to get the training and plan for 6 months and mount the 911 attacks in that fateful year.

I'd argue that even now, the targets would be mutually agreed. I can't see a case where Pakistan is completely out of the loop. A few missions, may be. But over all this whole drone strike strategy can't proceed without continuous Pakistani monitoring and approval.

I have lost the count of how many times I have already stated the same. there is still some form of cooperation going in WoT and drones form the part of that. the issue is where CIA conducting some operations on its own and using it as a way to convey its message to Islamabad.

by the way, your justification of collateral damage is disappointing, its like an AQ guy saying that the deaths of the people in the plane and the twin tower were collateral damage, the main aim was just to destroy the structures.

 

[Hulk]

Pride precedes a disaster, and an arrogant attitude precedes a fall – is the US heading for a disastrous fall?


By Asim Aquil



It could not have been a sheer coincidence that the Thursday morning when Dr Shakil Afridi was charged and punished for treason by a tribal court under the Frontier Crimes Regulations (FCR), the CIA once again violated Pakistani air space and carried out a drone strike on an unknown mosque in the tribal areas.

The targets were alleged to be low-level Uzbek fighters harboured in the premises but as ever a number of Pakistanis at the mosque lost their lives – heads that will register in Nato’s charts as “collateral damage” but no apology ever issued to their families or the public for the loss of lives or compensation dispensed.

It’s quite shameful that that these days drone strikes are carried out just to send political messages to Pakistan and not serve any military means. While even earlier the principle behind the strikes – violating air space and sovereignty of an independent nation and state – had led to heated debates, of late there is no justification for the cause behind them.

Needless to say, such pettiness is and will continue to harm the cause of the American nation and will be an inadequate cover for the failings of the American administration.

At this point in time, with the elections in Pakistan and US right round the corner, and a change of administrations a possibility in both countries, the US would be better placed in getting its priorities right and garnering goodwill. Not only that, to make sure it can exit Afghanistan at the cheapest price possible, it has to let go of its arrogance and soften its tone with Pakistan.

It’s been months since the US carried out the raid on the Salala check post, but has been stubborn enough not to issue an apology for the loss of 24 soldiers. At times one feels that why should Pakistan even “demand” or “ask” for an apology, should not one be tendered without being forced for it? What happened to sense of fairness and discerning between right and wrong? That the US is holding back on an apology as a bargaining chip emboldens the views within Pakistan that it views the deaths in Pakistan as acceptable losses.

If the US uses drone strikes to send messages - one has to wonder if the Nato strike on Salala was one such incident? The mind wanders as long as the issue is kept open.

I wonder if the other Nato allies ever question such US tactics? We know some in France are totally fed up kowtowing the US line - even though it was Nato tag, but primarily an All American force attacked Salala check post (funny how such mistakes are not made by German or French forces ever) but all of Nato has to pay for it. I wonder why the rest of them don't take the US to task on its goof-ups.

In any case, to not apologize (which would only begin to settle things between us) is a deep insult to the nation and to the memory of the fallen soldiers. Never has arrogance taken a nation anywhere, and as the saying goes, what goes around, comes back around.

The US still acts 180 degrees against what is expected out of someone seeking benefits from Pakistan and continues to bomb Pakistan. How will this translate into benefits for the United States? Is the entire US game plan that Pakistan will capitulate under pressure and will miss the good old times and go running back to the US?

If that’s so I would like to know what passes for a Think Tank in America considering the millions of dollars they spend on various institutes dishing out such strategies. I want some of that action.

Is the US heading for a disastrous fall? | Pakistan Defence

In the article I read on new york times yesterday and posted here on PDF. It was the attack on Kabul which stopped them from apologies.

Think from their perspective if they strongly feel PA/ISI is helping Haqqani target them in Kabul, why will they feel bad for salala.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/183059-frustrations-grow-u-s-pakistan-fail-mend-ties.html

This is not my opinion, but just trying to put forward what other side might be thinking.