DRDO working on cutting submarine vulnerability

[RPK]

The Hindu : Front Page : DRDO working on cutting submarine vulnerability


DRDO working on cutting submarine vulnerability


S. Anandan







KOCHI: Work is apace at the Defence Research and Development Organisation's Naval Materials Research Laboratory at Ambernath in Maharashtra on developing a land-based prototype plug, and subsequently an engineered, operational version of an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system that will significantly cut the ‘indiscretion rate' of diesel and electric submarines.

The ‘indiscretion rate' is the percentage of time a submarine spends snorting when it is most vulnerable. By eliminating the need for conventional submarines to frequently resurface for recharging batteries by breathing in air, it would considerably enhance their sub-surface endurance.

Satisfied

Talking to The Hindu here recently, J. Narayana Das, DRDO's Chief Controller, Research and Development (Naval Systems, Materials and Human Resources), said the Navy was satisfied with the DRDO's proposal. “We are first having a land-based demonstrator. And, as we progress, we will concurrently start an engineered version because engineering anything for a submarine platform is a completely different ballgame.”

(Incidentally, The Hindu has learnt from sources in the Navy that it has asked the DRDO to come up with a fully engineered fuel cell AIP by 2014 for possible use in the last two of the six Scorpene submarines being built in Mumbai's Mazagaon Dock. The Navy has also given sanction for the land-based prototype AIP in August this year.)

 

[jha]

So, Development of AIP was true. Lets see when they have this ready.

 

[AMCA]

I think the Indigenous Diesel Electric submarines would Have AIP , After it is tested on the last two Scorpene Submarines which India is Building... There was a News long ago that India is Building a diesel electric Submarine .... I dont understand the need of it especially when we have made a Nuclear submarine...

 

[misterme2]

I think the Indigenous Diesel Electric submarines would Have AIP , After it is tested on the last two Scorpene Submarines which India is Building... There was a News long ago that India is Building a diesel electric Submarine .... I dont understand the need of it especially when we have made a Nuclear submarine...

I wonder if there are sensors powerful enough to "sniff" out the Nuclear material in the water?

 

[misterme2]

I think the Indigenous Diesel Electric submarines would Have AIP , After it is tested on the last two Scorpene Submarines which India is Building... There was a News long ago that India is Building a diesel electric Submarine .... I dont understand the need of it especially when we have made a Nuclear submarine...

It has been stated that disel electric subs are very quiet

 

[sancho]

Incidentally, The Hindu has learnt from sources in the Navy that it has asked the DRDO to come up with a fully engineered fuel cell AIP by 2014 for possible use in the last two of the six Scorpene submarines being built in Mumbai's Mazagaon Dock. The Navy has also given sanction for the land-based prototype AIP in August this year.)

Once again a proof that the Scorpene deal was not made based on performance and capabilities of the sub, but on other side reasons (ToT for nuclear subs, political reasons...). If IN prefers fuel cell AIP (which the Germans offered even years ago in the first sub deal), over the French MESMA AIP, it should be obvious that the Scorpene was not what they really wanted.

U214 offer was reported to be cheaper, easier to build under licence, because of the experience with production of U209, included an AIP upgrade for the U209 subs and had an operational and proven propulsion, while the MESMA AIP is still not ready for Scorpenes.

 

[sancho]

I think the Indigenous Diesel Electric submarines would Have AIP , After it is tested on the last two Scorpene Submarines which India is Building... There was a News long ago that India is Building a diesel electric Submarine .... I dont understand the need of it especially when we have made a Nuclear submarine...

Cost-effectiveness mainly. Nuclear subs are very expensive to operate and have their real advantages only in high endurance, blue water missions, while diesel electric subs can be smaller and are better for costal areas. The Swedish navy fielded one of their AIP subs in exercises against an USN SSN and it is said that they defeated the SSN several times, because the AIP propulsion is so quiet.
For IN a higher number of diesel - electric subs with AIP is a must, to defend our large coastlines and ports and I hope they start to take this issue seriously now.

 

[angeldemon_007]

U214 offer was reported to be cheaper

Dude i wrote this in some other topic also but its true...

While Pakistan is getting 3 Type 214 with AIP in 1 billion $. But MOD of defense instead of procuring 6 of these advanced subs in 2 billion $ insists on paying 11 billion $.

French company DCNS very obediently comes forward and says it will provide 6 Scorpene in 5 billion $ with AIP. Also the point to be noted is that Scorpene is not as advanced as Type 214 which will be equipped with Seimens AIP, one of the best in the world.

I mean man, we can purchase 33 A214 subs in 11 billion $. Go for such a deal and Germany will even transfer the production unit of A214 to India....

I think the Indigenous Diesel Electric submarines would Have AIP

There is no indegenous program till yet. One is Scorpene and the other one is Project 75I for which will also be similar to Scorpene deal.

 

[lilaspr]

Dude i wrote this in some other topic also but its true...

While Pakistan is getting 3 Type 214 with AIP in 1 billion $. But MOD of defense instead of procuring 6 of these advanced subs in 2 billion $ insists on paying 11 billion $.

May be it has something to do with Transfer of Technology.

 

[angeldemon_007]

@ lilaspr
I agree with you but just tell me. If India orders 33 subs for 11 billion $. I think Germany would even agree to transfer the production of this sub to India.

This is how deals are done around the globe. Although purchasing 33 subs would be a stupid idea but still you will get whatever you need, TOT and even license production of subs....

People will also counter by saying 11 billion $ for life cycle cost of subs.....

Have you heard about French Brazilian deal for Scorpene subs ??/
If i recall correctly. It is a 9 billion $ deal. France will set up a state of the art shipyard and train Brazilians with the tech and build 5 Bigger SCorpene sub with AIP (like the one offered to India) and 1 nuclear sub with TOT and life cycle support.

Now comparison between both deals.....
India will get 6 diesal electric sub + TOT + say life cycle support = 11 billion $
Brazil will get diesal electric sub + 1 nuclear sub + 1 shipyard + TOT for both subs + life cycle support = 9-10 billion $

Also you have to look towards vendors. India previously also purchased German subs. Germany is the leader in this type of submarine so why not give the deal to Germany whose sub is cheap and better in technology.

Just tell me where i am wrong.....i don't get these old people who are ruling. I mean how much corruption. They should feel bad now......That A.Raja has already ruined everything...

@ lilaspr
Do you know our telecom minister is involved in a scam of US$38.98 billion....there are many defense deals where the numbers make you wanna think again.

 

[misterme2]

Once again a proof that the Scorpene deal was not made based on performance and capabilities of the sub, but on other side reasons (ToT for nuclear subs, political reasons...). If IN prefers fuel cell AIP (which the Germans offered even years ago in the first sub deal), over the French MESMA AIP, it should be obvious that the Scorpene was not what they really wanted.

U214 offer was reported to be cheaper, easier to build under licence, because of the experience with production of U209, included an AIP upgrade for the U209 subs and had an operational and proven propulsion, while the MESMA AIP is still not ready for Scorpenes.

Sancho....if you look back most of the previous weapon systems purchased before 2000 was obsolete. Tanks, subs, etc., had substantial defects and were clearly sub par. I pointed out that General Kapoor was corrupt before the Adarshi scam, and I still stand by those words. Fernades was another joker. The public needs to be made aware of this so it is not repeated again!

 

[misterme2]

@ lilaspr
I agree with you but just tell me. If India orders 33 subs for 11 billion $. I think Germany would even agree to transfer the production of this sub to India.

This is how deals are done around the globe. Although purchasing 33 subs would be a stupid idea but still you will get whatever you need, TOT and even license production of subs....

People will also counter by saying 11 billion $ for life cycle cost of subs.....

Have you heard about French Brazilian deal for Scorpene subs ??/
If i recall correctly. It is a 9 billion $ deal. France will set up a state of the art shipyard and train Brazilians with the tech and build 5 Bigger SCorpene sub with AIP (like the one offered to India) and 1 nuclear sub with TOT and life cycle support.

Now comparison between both deals.....
India will get 6 diesal electric sub + TOT + say life cycle support = 11 billion $
Brazil will get diesal electric sub + 1 nuclear sub + 1 shipyard + TOT for both subs + life cycle support = 9-10 billion $

Also you have to look towards vendors. India previously also purchased German subs. Germany is the leader in this type of submarine so why not give the deal to Germany whose sub is cheap and better in technology.

Just tell me where i am wrong.....i don't get these old people who are ruling. I mean how much corruption. They should feel bad now......That A.Raja has already ruined everything...

@ lilaspr
Do you know our telecom minister is involved in a scam of US$38.98 billion....there are many defense deals where the numbers make you wanna think again.

I agree with you also....something fishy going on! India needs to field much more subs.....and 33 subs from the Germans would be perfect. I don;t understand why we aren;t doing it yet? Are Indians so corrupt, why are their ppl so quiet. They should raise bells and whistles to get the media attention.

 

[sancho]

Dude i wrote this in some other topic also but its true...

While Pakistan is getting 3 Type 214 with AIP in 1 billion $. But MOD of defense instead of procuring 6 of these advanced subs in 2 billion $ insists on paying 11 billion $.

French company DCNS very obediently comes forward and says it will provide 6 Scorpene in 5 billion $ with AIP. Also the point to be noted is that Scorpene is not as advanced as Type 214 which will be equipped with Seimens AIP, one of the best in the world.

I mean man, we can purchase 33 A214 subs in 11 billion $. Go for such a deal and Germany will even transfer the production unit of A214 to India....


There is no indegenous program till yet. One is Scorpene and the other one is Project 75I for which will also be similar to Scorpene deal.

I didn't mean this new sub deal, I meant the first sub deal where U214 was offered too, but we bought Scorpenes.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Are Indians so corrupt, why are their ppl so quiet. They should raise bells and whistles to get the media attention.

Nobody listens to common Indian. Bureaucracy and Politics rule us. Although RTI was something good in this field but it is also not enough. People are being killed for raising normal issues using RTI act.

Are Indians so corrupt,

Man we lead the world in this. Do you know about the latest corruption scam in our country. Our Telecom minister is involved in this. This scam is related to 2G spectrum license which is of the size of US$38.98 billion. Just imagine....

 

[jha]

@ lilaspr
I agree with you but just tell me. If India orders 33 subs for 11 billion $. I think Germany would even agree to transfer the production of this sub to India.

This is how deals are done around the globe. Although purchasing 33 subs would be a stupid idea but still you will get whatever you need, TOT and even license production of subs....

People will also counter by saying 11 billion $ for life cycle cost of subs.....

Have you heard about French Brazilian deal for Scorpene subs ??/
If i recall correctly. It is a 9 billion $ deal. France will set up a state of the art shipyard and train Brazilians with the tech and build 5 Bigger SCorpene sub with AIP (like the one offered to India) and 1 nuclear sub with TOT and life cycle support.

Now comparison between both deals.....
India will get 6 diesal electric sub + TOT + say life cycle support = 11 billion $
Brazil will get diesal electric sub + 1 nuclear sub + 1 shipyard + TOT for both subs + life cycle support = 9-10 billion $

Also you have to look towards vendors. India previously also purchased German subs. Germany is the leader in this type of submarine so why not give the deal to Germany whose sub is cheap and better in technology.

Just tell me where i am wrong.....i don't get these old people who are ruling. I mean how much corruption. They should feel bad now......That A.Raja has already ruined everything...

@ lilaspr
Do you know our telecom minister is involved in a scam of US$38.98 billion....there are many defense deals where the numbers make you wanna think again.

Hold it man..Do you really think Indians are idiots to spend this money when other country is getting the same paying very less...
Every deal has its own importance and level of ToT.. We are getting an excellent deal from French in Scorpene..
Even in P-75A the money allocated is not too much..
$ 11 Bil. for complete TOT of 6 most modern Diesel nuclear submarines present including lifecycle cost is not too much..
P-75 and P-75A will give us enough ToT to design our own SSKs..