Dr. Qadeer responsible for N-proliferation: Musharraf

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Aamir...

I have a few disagreements with what you are saying...

I totally agree that we need to think things thru and plan our response... This is what I have been saying anyway... thus my point about blaming our important (even though corrupt) nuke scientist achieving little in our current atmosphere and to focus our energy on our open and secret enemies...

Perhaps you misunderstood my point about being fed up... What is it that I m fed up with... When you start talking about any change... any change in our country/society from an Islamic point of view... there is this argument that keeps getting thrown in the discussion that America is so powerful that it will not allow such a change... This is what I m fed up with... This mentality that we need to pray five times a day facing Washington D.C... On this very forum such arguments have been presented numerous times that we are incapable of doing anything and we need to continue in our slavery to America/West...

As for the good in the west... Yaar believe me I ve been in trouble numerous times trying to keep calm between Muslim and non Muslim communities... Some have even called me an agent of the west!!! can you imagine? but importantly of course there is good in the west that we should not overlook... What irritates me however is that people start thinking in a totally western mode and keep pointing towards this good and totally overlook the bad in their societies... the corruption in their "democracies"... Today I am seeing the western economy being devastated by what their governments have done... You cant expect me as a lover of Pakistan and my people to start praising the follies of the west... If anyone does then they need to wake up and smell the coffee... I have publicly said this in western intellectual circles that western countries are heading towards a disaster that is unprecedented in history... even gave them ideas as to how they can overcome some of their problems... this is something that brought me to this forum itself because I realized that I should be telling my own people about these things when I can tell them to people in the west...

I understand what you say about this war being our war... I have seen the dead bodies of Pak Army killed by these evil people in the name of Islam... I remember very well when I mentioned this in Islamic circles, I got in trouble over that being accused of towing the western media's line of whats happening (there you go... na idhar ka na udhar ka)... BUT do consider this... did we ever have the amount of craziness and bloodshed before Americans arrived in the region? Our war or not... Slavery of America is not helping us one bit...

As for your point about Malaysia and Indonesia... Yaar Indonesia has always been a messed up country ever since it was ruled with an iron fist by the American puppet General Suharto... as for Malaysia... do check out what happened to their economy in the nineties... moral of the story... you ll be a total fool to follow their example of blind capitalism and leave your nation at the mercy of Yahoodi money speculators...

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

What an inspiring turn in the discussion. Now some of the discussion is turning to becoming a muslim.

Now that is a web of cob---or should I say the cob-web where my brethren tend to get lost. Well---my young ones----just do like our prophet did---he he became a human----that humanity propelled him to where he got---so any and all of you can become whatever you want to----if you don't have humanity in you first---being a practsiing or a good muslim ain't gonna do nothing much.

If there is rust on the body and frame of you car and you spray paint on it----it will only hide the blemishes for a little while---then then after a little while---the scum will come out---that is the rust will come through---.

For you to take care of the rust---you have to give the car an acid bath---sand it down to the metal---then prepare the base to start over to make it look good---.

That is what you have to do with the soul----this heart has gone criminal----in order to cleanse the heart---you have to go to the basics---the basic fundamentals of your life. ---The soul is rusted out---the oxidation has set in deep---.

Pakistan has dug up the grave for its citizens deep---even though there have been tremendous sacrifices made by the millitary---.

Regardless of the follies of the west---when you walk into an office to get your job done---you are taken care of.

The biggest problem that pakistan has in this regard----is that all of the work force in pakistan----the jobs that are done by women----those jobs are done by men---that is most of the office jobs---that is where the criminality of the pakistani mind lies---men are mentally criminals----they have no compassion of someone else's hardships----women on the other and are just the opposite.

Unless and until---pakistan does not kick out men from these jobs and put women in charge---the basics won't change.

Next in line---one of my aunts----had a double masters degree---but no job----a house wife---mentally---a brilliant women---in family relation---an extremel;y deceptive and kniving wome----I told her a few time---the reason for her deviousness was that she didnot have the resource to part with her intellect in an intelligent manner---she didnot have the resource to channel out her knowledge---for that reason---she turned on the family and destroyed it---.


This is the tragedy of pakistan---pakistan has put these educated women behind closed doors----instead of being ther part of a solution---they are the major problem---when you look at the character of the men of the country----that is the reslult of the teachings of their mothers.

You see---this issue that we have, has nothing to do with being muslims or non muslims----it is the issue of being characterless---islam doesnot give you character by default---that is a part and parcel of your inner self---.

Gentlemen---we are barking at the wrong tree---.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well - Pakistanis never forget our heros , yes the west may force our ellites to deny them their status due to pressure but we know who were the people who frist were given credit for our Nuclear program

And thats all that matters

As for him giving any secrets to any nation - knowledge is there to be shared -

Its not a domain of few nations who call themselves g1 g7 what ever so they can control the world riches - you have knowledge you use it

As far as I am concerned there should be Nuclear Freedom Day in Pakistan - and all the scientist should be celebrated for their god work

Heck we did not had this based on old estimates US had planned our break up by 2010
and we know they ended up in our backyard , this story was circulating for last 10-13 years and I was astonish to see such stories unfold in last 10-13 years

Because we had our Nuclear weapon no one dares enter our lands

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Well - Pakistanis never forget our heros , yes the west may force our ellites to deny them their status due to pressure but we know who were the people who frist were given credit for our Nuclear program

And thats all that matters

As for him giving any secrets to any nation - knowledge is there to be shared -

Its not a domain of few nations who call themselves g1 g7 what ever so they can control the world riches - you have knowledge you use it

As far as I am concerned there should be Nuclear Freedom Day in Pakistan - and all the scientist should be celebrated for their god work

Heck we did not had this based on old estimates US had planned our break up by 2010
and we know they ended up in our backyard , this story was circulating for last 10-13 years and I was astonish to see such stories unfold in last 10-13 years

Because we had our Nuclear weapon no one dares enter our lands

Have you ever thought that the breakup stories might be a figment of our over zealous imagination or self fulfilling prophesies??? If one lives in Pakistan than, for the most part, one becomes part of our Conspiracy Culture. This is a typical reaction of a nation in a tail spin.

There are think tanks all over the world and that spill out theories upon scenarios upon scenarios. This does not mean that all of this is true or being acted upon. They are paid to do it -- their KPI's and sometimes their future is dependant upon thinking of the unthinkable! Taking one of the theories and pasting it all over the place as a declared US policy does not make it so.

Our media/journalist is an off shoot of the typical yellow journalism that prevailed in countries where news was controlled. We will get out of this – as so many other countries have (Not fully mind you – trash and sensationalism sell like hot cakes). The challenge for us is to differentiate between sensationalism and the probability of it actually happening. True intellectual level discussions are not just happening on our television. We can maybe back this up with the fact that nowhere in the world prime time slots is taken up by Jingoism laced current affair shows like Hamid Mir show etc.

Somewhere along our journey we have lost touch with reality and subsequently, sanity. Everything is a conspiracy. If you debate upon sensitive issues with facts, suddenly you are confronted by the ever present “Conspiracy Theory” of the grand/secret plan that every one knows about down to our Muhammad Hussain, the rickshaw driver!!!

If our nuclear aspirations was such an issue for the world than one must give credit to Mard-e-Momin, Marde-e-Haq,; Zia-ul-Haq that he got the whole world embroiled in the Afghan conflict so we could secretly concentrate on building our Nuclear Capability – we know we did this by 1984! The cost of doing this is another debate.

My sum-up; enough conspiracies – the fact is that we are hearing about the disintegration of Pakistan since I was ten years old (and that was in late sixties!). If you dig out old news papers right from 194t, you will find the following headlines:

Pakistan is under threat
There is growing conspiracy against Pakistan
And “Islam Khatray main hai.”

The headlines are the same since than. There might be people out there with their own little axes to grind by keeping us obsessed with the above. Indira Gandhi did this very well in India.

We need to stand up and say that East Pakistan debacle was solidly Made in Pakistan by Pakistanis – yes others bought the game and played it to our disadvantage – the fact remains it was Pakistani made fiasco and we excel in them – whether it is Afghanistan, or Baluchistan and on and off in Sindh.

My 2 C worth.

 

[MastanKhan]

Aamir,

Thanks for the post----what people don't understand is that islam and muslim/pakistan are two different things----they do complement each other.

But, islam doesnot need pakistan to survive and thrive----it is pakistan that needs islam to keep its feet on the ground---. There has never been any promise made to the muslims that they will be protected---but OTOH we believe that Allah has promised the protection of islam---the religion---against all odds.

Pakistanis have just taken it for granted and started raising their personal slogans. They have taken the proclamation that " pakistan is the last fortress of islam " to heart, on their own whims and beliefs----and they have become the chosen protectors of the belief---but the problem that nobody wants to address is that what happens when the protectors need protection.

Sometimes----the illusion and reality are farther apart than one can even comprehend---but it is the mind that plays these deceptive games of dellusional greatness and grandeur which are farthest from reality.

Here is what is happening in pak U S relationship----we all know that the U S is stuck like a pig in the chimney----all its analysis, strategy, gamesmanship, pre-planning the war, gun in one hand and bag of money in the other mindset, feet on the ground after the fact and all that fancy talk has failed them for the upteenth time in a war.

The cassualties are rising, the expense of the war gone through the roof, they have their back against the wall, every plan that they make---backfires on their faces---they are totally clueless as what they want to do---how they will do it---what needs to be done---and who is going to do what.

Under these circumstances---they will not take their fall gracefully and make a quick and fast exit. They are extremely vulnerable now as to how they will react under further duress---coming from any direction----that unpredictability is fearsome---and why is that---it is due to the massive strike capabilities that they have which brings fear to an opponent which has fixed operations and establishments.

Here is what has happened----in any war, where the U S is involved----time is of great essence to the opponent---so called allies on wot---.

There was a looming threat of nuc strikes from pak after the 2002 issue with india. Things cooled down between pak and india but not for the US---. Now----the americans had the time to decipher, decode and map out the pak installations full time. They have been going at it for the last 7 years now 24/7---there are full time day and night sattellites hovering over pakistan alongwith the uav's---keeping track of the movement of any cargo from sensitive sites at all times.

It is also keeping track---of all the cement factories of the supply of cement trucks coming out of the factories---and tracking their direction if they deviate from cities and are headed towards the desert or mountains---they are keeping track of truck tracks leading into anywhere nowhere in the desert and mountains for thall these years----what does that mean---if a higher number of construction material is being shipped out somewhere---where there is no obvious buildings----guess what is going to be found over there---possible ammo dumps----missiles silos---missile storage etc etc----I believe you get the drift---.

Now---we claim that we have movable launchers that ride piggy back on trucks----well that is also agreed---so the americans have also gathered data over the years as to where those heavy trucks are deployed and what there movements are---heavy truck tracks can be followed from high altitude photography and the wonders of synthetic aperture radar are not hidden.

So---at this time the americans are well prepared----they have already given the green light to the indians to go ahead with any strike if there is a mumbai type of attack----america has also warned pakistani of not going nuclear---but the americans also know that the things can go out of control in a minute---.

For that---they have prepared their contingency plan of surgical strikes against pak nuc sites---be it fixed operations or be it movable launchers----.

Americans always have better results in fighting against regular armies rather than gorrilla warfare----the movement of regular army is predictable and can be countered----from the location from the order is delivered to where the frontline soldier where the order is executed.

Now---let us talk about countering that effect.

 

[abaseen99]

Hi,

Musharraf is not abnormal---he is just setting the records straight---he is just letting the pakistanis know the truth---showing the true face of A Q Khan---

the truth about musharaf every pakistani knows he is the responsible of the current satuation of pakistan.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well Musharif is not the cause or current crisis entirely it was was not his fault that , taliban decided not negotiate for deals with gas and oil companies form west

As for Dr Sahib we all know he was fully decorated person in our nation , and rightfully so , just becuse some information was shared by person / state it does not means he suddenly became an outcast

Firstly all the western countries share their technology and knowledge openly , the CERN experiments that are going on on anti matter etc how many ppl from Pakistan are part of that research ?
etc European countries openly share knowledge with each other.

They created Patents to prevent other countries from aquiring knowledge that is all the problem is about.

If Dr Sahib or Even if Pakistan shared technical knowledge -
BIG deal ...

US gave india nuclear deals , did we object did any one cared no ... did anyone demoralised national heros in US for giving India nuclear deal ? No

Did any of the congress man/women in USA were house arested in their own homes

NO ..

Now the silly claims that oh he was not really a nuclear scientist this and that and he was low rank and this and that - well I don't disrespect a person who left germany or where he was working to come back to Pakistan and help build a device that safe guarded our national interest.

In any case - yes there are many scientist but he was given his acolades for a reason ...

Pakistan should honor the hero , and make it clear to international community look we don't give a rat's arse about your concern about
nuclear profileration

We have not signed any paper for such actions and we don't believe we should sign any either

Pakistan should forge new alliances with nations like Russia , Venezuella and IRAN as they are rich in national oil resources and energy and we need this for our NATIONAL interest

THE TIME is right to kick the national interest of nations that are not really helping us and focus on our OWN national interest for 10-20 years

 

[eric_cartman]

@AzadPakistan pajje!! the knowledge shared by Pak was not for Civilian purposes moreover all states such as Libya, Iran and North Korea with whom they shared are considered rogue by most countries.
We are already seeing what North Korea did to South Korea couple of days back and if they have nukes, god knows what they will do. Hardly there is any development there so they don't care about loss from war.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

the truth about musharaf every pakistani knows he is the responsible of the current satuation of pakistan.

Can you back up your statement with facts my friend -- and I mean fact not the ones reported by GEO!!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

the truth about musharaf every pakistani knows he is the responsible of the current satuation of pakistan.

Sir,

No---it is the pakistanis who are responsible for the situation in pakistan. They chose to go to jihad in afg---ain't payback a bi--h.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Discussion still going on about AQ... Folks lets agree on something... the biggest crime was that AQ dealt with the treacherous Libya of Qadhafi... I remember it well when this news broke out back in 2004, I was thinking to myself... dammit what kind of person you think Qadhafi is? Is he someone to be trusted with such information/technology... absolutely ludicrous... and this also goes to show that AQ had no idea of the political implications of what he was doing... Great scientist is one thing, one needs to have some sense of political atmosphere as well as think of the implications of such measures thru...

However North Korea is different... correct me if I m wrong but I think the North Koreans have helped Pakistan in its Missile Tech in return for the slight Nuke info that Pakistan shared with them... by that measure AQ became the scape goat and nothing else...

The Chinese are monitoring the situation very closely now... they dont want a war so close to their borders in the east with the Americans participating with about 100 000 troops...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Sir,

No---it is the pakistanis who are responsible for the situation in pakistan. They chose to go to jihad in afg---ain't payback a bi--h.

MK.. yaar that has always been denied by us... it is not our issue anyway since we insist on keeping this arbitrary separation between AF and PAK... what is most depressing is that TTP started their terrorism inside Pakistan itself...

Perhaps it should be mentioned... Dont you think it was our fault completely to back the Taliban in the first place? We did back them when it suited us and the Americans did nt we? When that backing was gone it obviously had to have its response... and this has been part of the American plan because they pushed the Taliban back into Pakistan instead of engaging with them in Afghanistan once and for all...

when will we learn from our mistakes... even today, I wish someone with some influence would read my words... we need to be absolutely clear with the Taliban that are only engaging in battle in AF that we want nothing of the bloodshed coming to our cities... Do what they may in AF, its their country... should NOT come across our side of the border at all...

 

[abaseen99]

Can you back up your statement with facts my friend -- and I mean fact not the ones reported by GEO!!!!

few majer truth about musharaf 1-talaban created in khyber pukhtoonkwa sucide attacks 2- BUGTI merder and balochistan satuation 3- action against the judges 4- the insult of the national hero respected dr qadeer khan and much more.......

 

[abaseen99]

Moreover, it has now been revealed by American academic Ashley Tellis that during the Bush Administration, China was repeatedly warned that that nuclear sales to Pakistan did evoke concerns about possible diversion of Chinese technology and materials to Islamabad’s nuclear weapons programme, while cautioning Beijing not to violate NSG guidelines. Not surprisingly, when the NSG met in New Zealand on June 24-25, China declined to answer critical questions whether, in fact, there was a binding contract in place for the reactor sales it was proposing, when precisely this contract was finalised and what exactly were its terms.

A major reason why there are virtually no takers in the world of China’s rather unique nuclear cooperation with Pakistan has been Islamabad’s refusal to come clean about the involvement of its military establishment in the proliferation activities of the so-called ‘AQ Khan network’. We are all asked to believe that AQ Khan singlehandedly transferred nuclear weapons designs and know-how on centrifuge uranium enrichment technology to North Korea, Libya and Iran. Everyone knows that not even a pin can be moved out of Pakistan’s nuclear facilities without the approval of its Army establishment. To, therefore, claim that AQ Khan ran a ‘rogue’ proliferation network selling nuclear secrets without the knowledge of the Army top brass is about as credible as Pakistani assertions that the 26/11 Mumbai outrage was the work of ‘non-state actors’, carried out without the knowledge of its military establishment.

It has now been revealed by American nuclear scientists Thomas Reed and Danny Stillman after elaborate deliberations with Chinese nuclear scientists and others that the 35th nuclear test carried out in China at Lop Nor on May 26, 1990, was of a Pakistan-assembled, Chinese designed fission weapon. The design of this weapon corresponded to the nuclear weapons design given by AQ Khan in the shopping bag of his Rawalpindi tailor to the Libyans. India has to realise that while dealing with Pakistan, which is a dysfunctional entity, it really is facing an assertive China, determined on its strategic containment.The Pioneer :: Home : >> Chinese arms for Pakistan

 

[Waffen_SS]

it asks me for username/password??

Hello,

You can see Munir Ahmad Khan, Chairman PAEC 1972-91, Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan, then Minister for Finance and Coordination, Gen. K.M Arif, then Vice Chief of Army Staff and Dr. Ishfaq Ahmad, Member (Technical) of PAEC outside one of the several tunnels constructed for cold tests at Kirana Hills, Sargodha, circa 1983-84.

Here is the link: http://www.pakdef.info/nuclear&missile/images/ct_mak.jpg