Dr. Qadeer responsible for N-proliferation: Musharraf

[nightcrawler]

Here is the photo of one of the several cold tests carried out by PAEC under Munir Ahmad Khan during the 1980s. This one is from 1983-84 outside one of the tunnels at the cold test site. You can see Munir Khan along with Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Gen. K.M. Arif, then VCOAS, and Dr. Ishfaq Ahmad, then Member (Technical), PAEC.

Pakistan's Nuclear Program: Setting the Record Straight

it asks me for username/password??

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Why are you acting so belligerent in all your posts? Mastan Khan sir was once a think tank on this forum, I hold great respect for him and many others do including Indians and Pakistanis

Why do you think if people are talking something constructive and realistic it is insulting Pakistan army in a way? Even India cannot fight Israel or if it was our enemy that's a fact..

When I first started using the internet, I checked out different methods of hacking and realized that the cyber world was not my kind of place where I would act belligerent... I leave that to some chinese friends of mine

As for the comment about insult... Well it was worded in a way that either a senior officer in Pakistan's army would be so dumb as to not be able to comment decisively on our military's capability... OR that I wont have access to such a person...

Clear?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Just a small question. What are you doing in the land of the Masters of Libya?

Regards

Could have answered that but then you went on a rant and said...

Brave words from a man who is living in the land of his colonial masters hopefully legally, enjoying the fruits of capitalism.

Regards

Why is it that people like you, at the first hint of disagreement or political difference start shouting "hopefully legally" "enjoying the fruits of capitalism"

Do you have no material of substance to discuss?

 

[MastanKhan]

When I first started using the internet, I checked out different methods of hacking and realized that the cyber world was not my kind of place where I would act belligerent... I leave that to some chinese friends of mine

As for the comment about insult... Well it was worded in a way that either a senior officer in Pakistan's army would be so dumb as to not be able to comment decisively on our military's capability... OR that I wont have access to such a person...

Clear?

Sir,

It is the other way around if you look at your comments keenly---which suggests that you are taking it for granted that a millitary officer would know more about the issue---better than some of us ( I very much doubt that ) ( I will eat the crow----let me put it to you this way ).

And that means that you are insulting the integrity of some f us who take it very seriously to put our experiences and thoughts and research on this board.

We are also concerned about your naivity ( of the staement ) of thinking in such a manner.

Let me give you an example of the Commander in Chief of pakistan's millitary and of his level of ignorance---before the start of the first gulf war---General Mirza Aslam beg is known to have stated---the americans don't know that the iraqi army is a battle hardened army---it will be a big mistake for the americans to engage them----( what he was saying was the iraqi army will beat the american army )----.

I was literally shocked out of my pants---luckily I had my belt on tight---we all know the rest---The general came into the news again after 24 hours of the start of war and changed his comments----stating---we didnot know the true capabilities of the americans----the iraqis are going to lose---here is the commander of pak millitary---his comments are archived in the news papers of that time.

I am not saying that all millitary professional lack the understanding----what I am saying is that most of them donot have the exposure that that some of us have over here---.

 

[SQ8]

MK..
if it was the policy of the Pak army to promote the Capable captains.. rather than the loyal suckups.. statements such as those...by leader like them.. would never come..
alas.. This policy is followed by India, Israel..and every other secular republic.
As far as Dr Q's proliferation..
The fact that he traveled to NK.. to buy the Nodong for us.. or that he decided to act out of the usual "pan Islamic" desire.. does not help his plea for innocence.

 

[MastanKhan]

Santro,

Sometimes---you take it for the country. The country had put him on a pedstal---he knew that----everyone knew that even after his apology on the tv years ago---they still worshipped him.

AQ should have never uttered the words to reveal the national secrets if put under duress----and should never have threatened the country if something was done to him---his daughter would reveal the secrets.

That was the most shameful act of that man.

People over here brag about his deeds----AQ does not brag about the loyalty to his country----he is ready to put pakistan under sanctions if he is faced with any duress.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Sir,

It is the other way around if you look at your comments keenly---which suggests that you are taking it for granted that a millitary officer would know more about the issue---better than some of us ( I very much doubt that ) ( I will eat the crow----let me put it to you this way ).

And that means that you are insulting the integrity of some f us who take it very seriously to put our experiences and thoughts and research on this board.

We are also concerned about your naivity ( of the staement ) of thinking in such a manner.

Let me give you an example of the Commander in Chief of pakistan's millitary and of his level of ignorance---before the start of the first gulf war---General Mirza Aslam beg is known to have stated---the americans don't know that the iraqi army is a battle hardened army---it will be a big mistake for the americans to engage them----( what he was saying was the iraqi army will beat the american army )----.

I was literally shocked out of my pants---luckily I had my belt on tight---we all know the rest---The general came into the news again after 24 hours of the start of war and changed his comments----stating---we didnot know the true capabilities of the americans----the iraqis are going to lose---here is the commander of pak millitary---his comments are archived in the news papers of that time.

I am not saying that all millitary professional lack the understanding----what I am saying is that most of them donot have the exposure that that some of us have over here---.

This is the same "Strategic Depth" proponent. My cousin was in KSA at that time and told me that Saudi Arabians were openly angry with PA soldiers when Gen Baig made this statement in KSA when addressing the PA soldiers there.

This was the caliber of Gen. Baig and the well thought out strategy of Afghanistan. We worship people like him blindly without a thought or indepth analysis of their deeds. This is the same case with AQK.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I was literally shocked out of my pants---luckily I had my belt on tight---we all know the rest---
.

I am forced to say ROFL

LMAO.. the comment of the day goes to you Sir

Gen Baig is a mysterious character. what he did soon after the demise of Gen Zia is a big ? mark in our history.

ok he did introduce the offensive defence doctrine (well he was a chief so he takes the credit, maybe it was introduced by a sergeant major Rasul Bakhsh for all I know).

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I am forced to say ROFL

LMAO.. the comment of the day goes to you Sir

Gen Baig is a mysterious character. what he did soon after the demise of Gen Zia is a big ? mark in our history.

ok he did introduce the offensive defence doctrine (well he was a chief so he takes the credit, maybe it was introduced by a sergeant major Rasul Bakhsh for all I know).

Tha role leading upto Zia's plane crash and there after, is still a mystery. However, the doctrine is not the work of one man but DGMO's office - atleast that is my info. Please correct me if I am wrong. Under Gen. Kiyani this doctrine role has been shifted out of DGMO's office.

My 2c's worth.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Sir,

It is the other way around if you look at your comments keenly---which suggests that you are taking it for granted that a millitary officer would know more about the issue---better than some of us ( I very much doubt that ) ( I will eat the crow----let me put it to you this way ).

And that means that you are insulting the integrity of some f us who take it very seriously to put our experiences and thoughts and research on this board.

We are also concerned about your naivity ( of the staement ) of thinking in such a manner.

Let me give you an example of the Commander in Chief of pakistan's millitary and of his level of ignorance---before the start of the first gulf war---General Mirza Aslam beg is known to have stated---the americans don't know that the iraqi army is a battle hardened army---it will be a big mistake for the americans to engage them----( what he was saying was the iraqi army will beat the american army )----.

I was literally shocked out of my pants---luckily I had my belt on tight---we all know the rest---The general came into the news again after 24 hours of the start of war and changed his comments----stating---we didnot know the true capabilities of the americans----the iraqis are going to lose---here is the commander of pak millitary---his comments are archived in the news papers of that time.

I am not saying that all millitary professional lack the understanding----what I am saying is that most of them donot have the exposure that that some of us have over here---.

Point taken MK... I m not saying that you would nt know any better... I m only a bit fed up with the idea that the Americans are just waiting to attack Pakistan over an excuse... The two countries have had somewhat decent relationships both being Capitalist nations, and just the fact that Pakistan would become a little assertive (which we are doing nowadays in a limited manner anyway) does nt mean that Americans would stupidly attack Pakistan and create another enemy at a time when they desperately need friends... I mean bro LeGend was telling me about air to air refueling... for heaven's sake guys... I know all about America's capability... and unlike Aslam Baig I knew that Iraq's army would be annihilated in no time due to America's huge air superiority...

What I would like you to think about is the kind of leadership Saddam offered to his people... Remember one thing... When you have sincere leadership and the people are behind you almost 100 percent (minus the hypocrites) one has a lot of room for political maneuvering... Musharaf no matter how much I dislike him was no Saddam Hussain... but he give us a lot of problems due to his incompetence and stupidity...

So stop reminding me of what America is going to do... I take it that you are from Pakistan originally? Lets start thinking a way out of the mess... Blaming all hell on one of our important nuke scientist does nt help this either (I know all about his corruption mind you)... These topics deliver little... Those who do not know about the details of the issue dont care most of the time anyway...

As for our nukes... what I do know is that they are not piled up in one corner inside Pakistan rather distributed to all sections of the Military... Army, Navy and Air Force... this gives us huge room for strike capability (with a dedicated political will in case we are pushed into a corner for no good reason)... So I m simply not buying the nonsense that America is going to (or even capable of) taking out our nukes with the first wave of attack... That can happen perhaps in Hollywood but not reality...

Regards

 

[LeGenD]

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

If you consider our former COAS stupid and incompetent, than as per this query of yours:

heh... Kid

and what exposure does Aamir has? and why should we pay any attention to you rather than a military man who would know about military options that Pakistan has to be able to survive?

What kind of response are you looking forward to or expect from other military men/women of Pakistan regarding this case?

I do not have a military background but I have:

1. Been to Pakistani military exhibitions.
2. Relatives who have served in military.
3. Had interactions with Intelligence services officers.

What do you want to know?

NOTE: I do respect your morale. If only we had high morale to fight diseases of extremism and corruption.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

If you consider our former COAS stupid and incompetent, than as per this query of yours:



What kind of response are you looking forward to or expect from other military men/women of Pakistan regarding this case?

I do not have a military background but I have:

1. Been to Pakistani military exhibitions.
2. Relatives who have served in military.
3. Had interactions with Intelligence services officers.

What do you want to know?

NOTE: I do respect your morale. If only we had high morale to fight diseases of extremism and corruption.

Dont get me wrong mate... I know some of the top brass in Pakistan in the past very well and they are nothing but downright idiots when it comes down to matters of foreign policy... A good soldier does nt make a good politician as well...

As for xtremism and corruption... do give me some credit my friend... I have written many times on those topics and want them to end once and for all...

Perhaps you could consider that leaders like Musharaf and their shameful behavior results in more extremism not less...

 

[Aamir Hussain]

MBQ:

I am pleasently surprised by your last post. It makes a lot of sense except for the last paragraph and some revelations in the earlier ones -- some of them are contradicting your earlier stance (You know better than the Chief of Army Staff Gen Aslam Beg on Iraq even though he is an Army man!)

Your last paragraph:

"As for our nukes... what I do know is that they are not piled up in one corner inside Pakistan rather distributed to all sections of the Military... Army, Navy and Air Force... this gives us huge room for strike capability (with a dedicated political will in case we are pushed into a corner for no good reason)... So I m simply not buying the nonsense that America is going to (or even capable of) taking out our nukes with the first wave of attack... That can happen perhaps in Hollywood but not reality..."

Why are we obsessed with striking anyone with any nukes??? The day we have to launch these whoppers, that will be the end of Pakistan for sure. It is for detterence and deterrance alone. With countries like Paksitan who posses Nukes it is not a zero sum game vis a vis the big five nuclear powers. They all have second strike capability including US.

Our obsession with US and our percieived notion that they eat, breath, sleep, and yawn... Pakistan and its nukes is a typical grass roots reaction in our country.

The truth is somewhat different than perceived by majority of us. They are worried about our off and on sabre ratlling and obsession with India which they feel will leventually lead to a wrong judgement and possiblity of a nuclear exchange and the resultant consequences that will effect whole global climate and crop yields etc.

Their concern is also towards India, they know that there are some screwed up people there as well and at time they can be as hard headed as we are. This is a nightmare scenario for them. Both the countries do not directly pose a threat to US but do have an indirect effect upon US actions in the region.

Their biggest concern right now is the Pakstan based terrorist network and their global reach alongwith a workable Pakistani Government structure. It is not beacuse of any love for Pakistan but the consequence of not dismantling and building one respectively.

Afghanistan for them is an issue of face saving and graceful exit today and nothing more. Afghnistan today is no more central ot their oil access as it wa ten years ago. Today Canada is the largest exprter of oil to US and not KSA!!!!

Knowing a little bit of the American psyche, they would not sell us long range missiles and fighters if even for one moment they want to get rid of us. If they can do deals worth US$60 billion than couple of billion is a drop in the bucket that they can easily do without if that was the case and if American lives were at stake in future.

Wooing India is not an anti Pakistan strategy but countering China by creating a more like mainded trading partner (Or so they think -- I know Indians might come as surprise for them in the future) to balance out over dependancy on China. Secondly, they would like to fuel a regional race for power to ensure that critical Chinese resources are diverted towards a non productive defence spending (Where they can not have a piece of that pie) backed up by billions of dollar worth of Indian defence contracts. A win - win for India and US in the long run. This is the plan -- but Indians might yet spring a surprise!!!

My 2 cents worth.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Thanks for the good post Aamir...

Regarding Aslam Baig... It would seem that he forgot about the American Airforce and missile tech completely when stating what he did...

My point about involving an Army man would be from a purely tactical/strategic point of view... I could say the same things to them as you said to me and see how they would respond... Nukes aside, can we do something/anything to keep Americans away?

I m not obsessed with nukes yaar... I am fed up... America can do this and do that... cant you see a short fed up answer... We can bloody nuke India if they did this and did that...

 

[Aamir Hussain]

No army man will come on any forum and tell you the weaknesses in our defense -- it goes against their training, esprit de corps, and pride. Very few will discuss, in-depth, the shortcomings in detail -- that too, privately.

My friend just because you are getting fed up of the ground realities vis a vis US does not mean that you and I can change it with wishes and death wishes at that.

The solution is not to bang your head against a wall and kill yourself in the process but use the same wall to protect yourself from your immediate enemies and buy time and space to grow and get stronger.

What is required is sane and balanced thinking and strategic planning for the next 25 years with a focus on making Pakistan an economic entity in the region. The rest will follow.

When we are crumbling from inside, it would be prudent on our part to get our house in order first and think about anything else later.

The WoT is here to stay at least for Pakistan whether US stays in Afghanistan or not. The biggest folly of ours is to think that this is not our war - mind you killings of Shia intellectuals and professionals were going on much before 9/11. The genie is out of the bottle and will not go away unless we first realize that this is our problem and than tackle it head on.

The masses and the civilian law enforcement still believes that this will go away once the US leaves Afghanistan or a political realignment vis a vis US will do away with the home grown terrorists. Another thought is that ISI is cultivating these groups for leverage in Afghanistan and Kashmir -- sadly, more killing is being done in Pakistan of Pakistanis than in any of those two regions combined on a daily basis. If ISI did cultivate these groups for different reasons than today these groups are no longer in its control. Their handlers are either dead (killed by the same groups) or melted away into retirements or acting as armchair Jihadi.

Young men with your disposition should adopt a more realistic and long term view of threats and opportunities facing us. Pakistanis like you, who have the privilege of having above average education and living abroad, have a unique perspective of being in a position to broaden the horizons of average Pakistanis living in Pakistan by highlighting the some of the good in western societies and focus on the moot points between our cultures to ensure better understanding between us.

We, purely from Pakistani perspective nothing to do with Israel and the Palestinian problem in the immediate future. The Arabs do not count on our support – they have enough of their own clout to swing things in their favor if they use their heads. We unnecessarily involve ourselves in a conflict that is basically a land dispute and not a religious issue. Only Muslim leaders have made it so to galvanize their mostly poorly educated, mind controlled (through controlled media), and devoid of free thinking populace. I might have opened a can of worms here but let the truth be spoken.

Look at Malaysia, Indonesia; they are not in hurry to take on Israel or US. They are using the same “Wall” to grow economically and bring prosperity to its population. This is what we should do. Young men like you should be in the forefront of this movement.

Au revoir!!