Doubtful video showing Army 'abusing' in Swat

[blain2]

I was going to say - the people being 'beaten' don't really look like they suffer any serious injuries.

We aren't pulling finger nails off, breaking fingers or assorted bones etc.

Heck, sad as it may seem, one probably stands a chance to be abused worse than this in a regular police station in Pakistan.

This indeed is the regular affair in the Pakistani police stations. However a few of those on the receiving end seem to be in advanced years and that is rough.

 

[qsaark]

I'm not condoning it but these men are detainees in a police station. Its possible that some were just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, but its not like the police and army just grab people off the streets and shove them into jail for no reason. Its possible the guys had credible local intel on them identifying them as militants.

From no angle this person is looking like a 'detainee'. His hands are free, his legs are free. He is wearing a clean Shalwar suite.

The boots aren't THAT heavy. I think the whips would've hurt more. But permanent damage is doubtful.

In my college, we used to wear the military boots during the NCC. I know how heavy they are and how it feels when one gets hit by them. Once I hit a person (about the same size and bulk of tha man shown in the video) while driving at ~80km/h. The person hit the bonnet and then the windscreen and rolled down on the side of the road. To my surprise he left himself up from the ground as if nothing has happened and started cursing me. I took him to the hospital only to know that three of his ribs were broken.

So this person could have had a higher pain threshold. But the real point is what if he was not a Terrorist or a terrorist supporter? As Blain has pointed out, such practices yield nothing but hatred.

 

[blain2]

The boots aren't THAT heavy. I think the whips would've hurt more. But permanent damage is doubtful.

Yaar Kasrkin,

Those boots hurt. I have worn them quite a bit and they can cause pretty serious injuries on the back etc. One of the chaps was doing a jump start kick on the back of one of the detainees. That must have hurt. I doubt anyone here would want to undergo the beatings.

One thing they were careful about was not hitting the face. I saw at least one of the NCOs stopping a jawan from going for the face. The officer seemed to be giving one of the jawana a rocket for going on with the beatings.

I just want to say that regardless of how ***** and inhumane the Taliban are, Pakistan Army has to and MUST set a higher bar. The Army is there to win a CI campaign. These videos do more harm than battlefield reverses.

Any well wisher of the PA would want the Army to avoid such incidents.

 

[qsaark]

This video shows how things get done in our part of the world. We're not kidding around, we're suppose to win a war that has effected our people to the maximum. These scumbags are the reason why we're in a situation where we have to stomp their heads to get information out in order to prevent a future terrorist attack in one of our cities. I can assure you that army has seen thousands of these "Old men" who later turn out as terrorists hiding arms, IEDs, and suicide jackets in their very own homes.

Secondly, I don't blame the soldiers for their actions. Once YOU'VE been down in the war zone and have seen how bodies of your own countrymen fly, and when you have to bury your brother, sister, mother, best friend or even your own father, you'd understand the psychology of the people who would go out of their way to interrogate terrorists in such a manner for OUR safer future.

Regular people like us would simply sit back and criticize the army for their wrong doings but would never get to understand the other side of the picture. Let's not "Speculate" if these men were innocent or not. The army is a professional branch of the Pakistan Military and we should wait for what they have to say about this in order to avoid useless moral bickering.

Than why so much hue and cry about the atrocities in Kashmir by the Indian security forces and in Iraq/Afghanistan by the US/ISAF?

 

[Kasrkin]

From no angle this person is looking like a 'detainee'. His hands are free, his legs are free. He is wearing a clean Shalwar suite.

Well, the fact that they're in a police station. Do notice the sandbags stacked at the entrance. Also, you don't have to be in a special type of dress to 'prove' that you're detainee. They were obviously being detained and were brought out for questioning at a time.

Once I hit a person (about the same size and bulk of tha man shown in the video) while driving at ~80km/h. The person hit the bonnet and then the windscreen and rolled down on the side of the road. To my surprise he left himself up from the ground as if nothing has happened and started cursing me. I took him to the hospital only to know that three of his ribs were broken.

Thats a very interesting story. But the point is that the boots aren't THAT heavy. Kicking hurts, especially when you're on the ground, but the boots are just leather at the end of the day.

EDIT: They hurt Mr. Blain, but not much more than your average boot I reckon. Though admittedly I haven't been kicked by one so I'll differ to your opinion on this one.

 

[Beskar]

Than why so much hue and cry about the atrocities in Kashmir by the Indian security forces and in Iraq/Afghanistan by the US/ISAF?

Q, I'm not in the mood to let you turn this thread into a flame war. Lets focus on the topic of this thread for now.

 

[qsaark]

Well, the fact that they're in a police station. Do notice the sand backs stacked at the entrance. Also, you don't have to be in a special type of dress to 'prove' that you're detainee. They were obviously being detained and were brought out for questioning at a time.

The video does not provide any such proof. You are however, free to assume that the person was a 'detainee'. At any rate, if that is how the suspects are treated by us, than we really have no right to point the fingers towards the occupation forces elsewhere.

Thats a very interesting story. But the point is that the boots aren't THAT heavy. Kicking hurts, especially when you're on the ground, but the boots are just leather at the end of the day.

The toe of the military boot is re-enforced with the steel or hardened leather. It is not 'just' leather. Besides Blain has already given his opinion on the military boots.

 

[Beskar]

The toe of the military boot is re-enforced with the steel or hardened leather. It is not 'just' leather. Besides Blain has already given his opinion on the military boots.

Would you like to buy a pair so that you can check it out yourself? Because I can assure you, these boots do not come with a steel-toe.

 

[qsaark]

Q, I'm not in the mood to let you turn this thread into a flame war. Lets focus on the topic of this thread for now.

What flame war? If we commit extra-judicial and inhumane things than its all right, if others do, than it is wrong? And if I bring that point in light, than all of a sudden it becomes a 'flame war'. So much for the freedom of speech.

If it was a video in which the soldiers were Indians or Americans, and the ‘detainees’ were Kashmiri or Afghan/Iraqi, than neither this video was ‘doubtful’ nor the beatings were soft nor the ‘detainees’ were ‘suspected’.

 

[qsaark]

Would you like to buy a pair so that you can check it out yourself? Because I can assure you, these boots do not come with a steel-toe.

I have used those boots, so no don’t send me anything. Besides, our men need them more than I do. I also mentioned the tips are reinforced with steel or hardened leather

 

[blain2]

Than why so much hue and cry about the atrocities in Kashmir by the Indian security forces and in Iraq/Afghanistan by the US/ISAF?

Qsaark,

There is a difference. The hue and cry about Kashmir and Iraq/Afghanistan is there because that is a systemic and endemic problem being faced by populations that are under occupation.

In Pakistan's case, this is an exception rather than the norm. Very big and drastic differences that we must not forget.

 

[blain2]

Would you like to buy a pair so that you can check it out yourself? Because I can assure you, these boots do not come with a steel-toe.

You are right. The ones in use in Pakistan by the Army are not steel-toed. But the heels hurt. I think the point is that this is an exception to the case, albeit a bad one for the image of the Army.

 

[Kasrkin]

The video does not provide any such proof. You are however, free to assume that the person was a 'detainee'.

The fact that they were detainees is not an assumption. Do take a closer look at the video. They're not on the road, knocking on doors and asking random people to come out so they can be beat up.

The toe of the military boot is re-enforced with the steel or hardened leather.

Yes a rounded smooth surface of tough leather protects the toes. Never heard of it being 'steel' though.

 

[Beskar]

What flame war? If we commit extra-judicial and inhumane things than its all right, if others do, than it is wrong? And if I bring that point in light, than all of a sudden it becomes a 'flame war'. So much for the freedom of speech.

Qsaark, I accused you of an attempted derail which in return would ultimately lead to a flame war. We don't tolerate people who purposely derail threads. If you want to talk about that issue, open up a new thread.

No further discussion on this please. Stick to the topic!

 

[qsaark]

Qsaark,

There is a difference. The hue and cry about Kashmir and Iraq/Afghanistan is there because its a systemic and endemic problems being faced by populations that are under occupation.

In Pakistan's case, this is an exception rather than the norm. Very big and drastic differences.

You are right Blain. I was merely pointing out the 'treatment' of the affected people by the security forces. We read the news about the suspected folks (could be innocent) being detained and tortured by the security forces in order to get information or some times just to scare them. Again, I was not comparing the two, since our troops are there to restore the writ of the GoP not to occupy.