Don't vote for BJP, it will impose a Hindu CM, Only a Muslim can become CM in J&K: PDP leader

[Joe Shearer]

I thought @Joe Shearer's rebuttal was to your earlier claim that there are more Indian soldiers than civilians. Not for "what difference" any force would make, no?

Do you at least admit that it is factually inaccurate to perpetuate the myth that there are more Indian soldiers than civilians in J&K?

He had no answer. That is why the sentimentality; when the facts don't exist, wring a tear or two out of the audience. After all, they've paid for it.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Then check with them, if you can locate one who doesn't spout stuff in order to please you.

The JKLF is dead in the water, except for the antics of one single player to the gallery. The only influence there is exercised by one leader of the Hurriyat, backed up by the guns of two terrorist outfits headquartered in Pakistan.

your opinion means little here....ground realities suggest otherwise

and of course even though they are ON RECORD having distanced themselves away from militancy, you'd still call them terrorists since they remove the indian flag wherever and whenever it is in site in the occupied territory.....they are merely products of the anti indian sentiment that runs deep not just in the valley (or "vale" as you spell it)

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I thought @Joe Shearer's rebuttal was to your earlier claim that there are more Indian soldiers than civilians. Not for "what difference" any force would make, no?

Do you at least admit that it is factually inaccurate to perpetuate the myth that there are more Indian soldiers than civilians in J&K?

in ten years, 80,000 Kasmiri freedom fighters (and regular civilians) were butchered by the indians so quite frankly - the number of occupation forces (defined as indian police, CPRF, etc.) is IMMATERIAL to the discussion

the ratio of occupation forces to Kashmiri citizens is high, the militarization of the area is high by any standard......unlike in iOK, in AZAD J&K, such militarization isnt necessary b/c our side faces no revolts or calls for freedom from Pakistan. We treat them as our own and they view us as their own. For that reason, our support for Kashmir wont ever be ending anytime.

 

[Joe Shearer]

your opinion means little here....ground realities suggest otherwise

and of course even though they are ON RECORD having distanced themselves away from militancy, you'd still call them terrorists since they remove the indian flag wherever and whenever it is in site in the occupied territory.....they are merely products of the anti indian sentiment that runs deep not just in the valley (or "vale" as you spell it)

Your spelling - and your geography - is on par with your arithmetic. That's saying a lot. At least I passed my exams.

Be sure that I couldn't care less what my opinion means to you and your ilk. I don't do what I do in Kashmir for the sake of my opinion being valued by an anonymous chairborne warrior in Pakistan.

And, talking of the JKLF, while they have made tremendous noises in the papers about distancing themselves from militancy, and while they are not armed terrorists any longer - none of which I denied - they were very active in sabotaging relief efforts during the floods. Something so cheap and low down that it beggars description. This was to their own people, and this was to get newspaper headlines of the sort that they wanted. It's not their removing the Indian flag that I resent; precious little of that sort happens, except for staged photo-opportunities. It's their cynicism in trying to gain political capital out of people's miseries.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

And, talking of the JKLF, while they have made tremendous noises in the papers about distancing themselves from militancy, and while they are not armed terrorists any longer - none of which I denied - they were very active in sabotaging relief efforts during the floods. Something so cheap and low down that it beggars description. This was to their own people, and this was to get newspaper headlines of the sort that they wanted. It's not their removing the Indian flag that I resent; precious little of that sort happens, except for staged photo-opportunities. It's their cynicism in trying to gain political capital out of people's miseries.

way to jump from topic to topic

as for relief efforts - JKLF did relief efforts of its own, especially at Maisuma....they did more than what the indian foreignors could dream of. I did read reports in some of your indian publications about Malik "hijacking" relief goods from india. Were there any protestations over that? None. india was damned if it did, damned if it didnt. Just goes to show how much they hate your country there.

And yet you claim them as your own.....much to your own detriment. Maybe one day indians will have the spine to accept the facts and quit its banter of a land where the people will always be a thorn in your side and reject you, bringing you only embarassment

 

[ExtraOdinary]

in ten years, 80,000 Kasmiri freedom fighters (and regular civilians) were butchered by the indians so quite frankly - the number of occupation forces (defined as indian police, CPRF, etc.) is IMMATERIAL to the discussion

the ratio of occupation forces to Kashmiri citizens is high, the militarization of the area is high by any standard......unlike in iOK, in AZAD J&K, such militarization isnt necessary b/c our side faces no revolts or calls for freedom from Pakistan. We treat them as our own and they view us as their own. For that reason, our support for Kashmir wont ever be ending anytime.

Why are you so lazy with stats?

From 1988-2014:

Number of Civilians dead= 14692
Security Personnel dead= 6129
Militants dead= 22830
Total deaths= 43651

Regarding militarization, the army will always have a heavy presence in that region, especially the border areas because that is the only Indian state which borders two hostile neighbors.

 

[Joe Shearer]

in ten years, 80,000 Kasmiri freedom fighters (and regular civilians) were butchered by the indians so quite frankly - the number of occupation forces (defined as indian police, CPRF, etc.) is IMMATERIAL to the discussion

the ratio of occupation forces to Kashmiri citizens is high, the militarization of the area is high by any standard......unlike in iOK, in AZAD J&K, such militarization isnt necessary b/c our side faces no revolts or calls for freedom from Pakistan. We treat them as our own and they view us as their own. For that reason, our support for Kashmir wont ever be ending anytime.

Ah, so the lies cease and we wrap ourselves in a moral banner.

Let me put it bluntly to you, since you are clearly ignorant and clearly interested only in making belligerent noises. The militarisation is less than a small fraction of the Kashmiri population, in the Vale; the number of policemen per thousand head of population is three times higher than the UN recommended norm, and that is I think understandable in view of the active opposition to law and order being promoted there.

As far as affairs in Azad Kashmir are concerned, if this were not a Pakistani forum where I am a guest, I would have given you a mouthful t chew on. Don't bluff; neither are you their own nor do they view you as their own.

Finally, except for a few moustache Petes, older than I, fitter for their rocking chairs than I, nobody in the Pakistani establishment thinks that Kashmir is feasible any more. It is good only to bait India, and to provide outlets for the large terrorist population that has to be kept occupied.

Your bluff has been called.

 

[Joe Shearer]

way to jump from topic to topic

as for relief efforts - JKLF did relief efforts of its own, especially at Maisuma....they did more than what the indian foreignors could dream of. I did read reports in some of your indian publications about Malik "hijacking" relief goods from india. Were there any protestations over that? None. india was damned if it did, damned if it didnt. Just goes to show how much they hate your country there.

And yet you claim them as your own

I notice you jump topics ahead of all the rest of us. We're merely trying to keep up with your agility and gymnastic skills.

And you do know what the JKLF is good for, after all. Slowly the pretensions drop down.

I didn't read about it; supplies organised by me were hijacked. And nobody raised their voices because of the physical threat that your disgusting lot represented. Physical threat to their own people, devastated by calamity, mourning their dead. And yet you claim them for your own.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why are you so lazy with stats?

From 1988-2014:

Number of Civilians dead= 14692
Security Personnel dead= 6129
Militants dead= 22830
Total deaths= 43651

Regarding militarization, the army will always have a heavy presence in that region, especially the border areas because that is the only Indian state which borders two hostile neighbors.

Lazy? Try 'vile'; it rhymes with 'vale'.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Ah, so the lies cease and we wrap ourselves in a moral banner.

Let me put it bluntly to you, since you are clearly ignorant and clearly interested only in making belligerent noises. The militarisation is less than a small fraction of the Kashmiri population, in the Vale; the number of policemen per thousand head of population is three times higher than the UN recommended norm, and that is I think understandable in view of the active opposition to law and order being promoted there.

As far as affairs in Azad Kashmir are concerned, if this were not a Pakistani forum where I am a guest, I would have given you a mouthful t chew on. Don't bluff; neither are you their own nor do they view you as their own.

Finally, except for a few moustache Petes, older than I, fitter for their rocking chairs than I, nobody in the Pakistani establishment thinks that Kashmir is feasible any more. It is good only to bait India, and to provide outlets for the large terrorist population that has to be kept occupied.

Your bluff has been called.

what bluff? the part about Kashmiris never accepting india? I'm the one calling the bluffs here. Your role is to go back to your rocking chair.

again - what you call terrorists are really just anti-indian Kashmiris......many exist, you cant kill all of them. We know you've tried for many years. Mass graves, fake encounters, AFSPA, even the tapping of phones, snooping of SMS, hacking/snooping of twitter accounts etc. are all part of the standard indian establishment's M.O. Dont seem to have gotten you very far.

the fact that you are getting uncharacteristically emotional now is a testament to the fact that you are worked up and trying to come up with more material which you wont easily be able to sell....a futile effort on your part

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I didn't read about it; supplies organised by me were hijacked. And nobody raised their voices because of the physical threat that your disgusting lot represented. Physical threat to their own people, devastated by calamity, mourning their dead. And yet you claim them for your own.

like balking when a rapist doesnt get thanked for distributing sweets on valentines day......riveting tale kid, tell me more

i'd love to ask the family of those girls raped by the occupation forces (sissies) @ Shopian. 2 teenage girls raped, sodomized, beaten then drowned.....ask the family of those girls what they think of a few dinghy boats of "aid" from india

 

[kadamba-warrior]

And yet you claim them as your own.....much to your own detriment. Maybe one day indians will have the spine to accept the facts and quit its banter of a land where the people will always be a thorn in your side and reject you, bringing you only embarassment

Talking of facts, I thought you would be more careful with your own 'facts' first as rebutted by @Joe Shearer earlier (about the ratio of security personnel to civilians). At the very least, an acknowledgement of the inaccuracy was in order!

 

[Joe Shearer]

what bluff? the part about Kashmiris never accepting india? I'm the one calling the bluffs here. Your role is to go back to your rocking chair.

again - what you call terrorists are really just anti-indian Kashmiris......many exist, you cant kill all of them. We know you've tried for many years. Mass graves, fake encounters, AFSPA, even the tapping of phones, snooping of SMS, hacking/snooping of twitter accounts etc. are all part of the standard indian establishment's M.O. Dont seem to have gotten you very far.

the fact that you are getting uncharacteristically emotional now is a testament to the fact that you are worked up and trying to come up with more material which you wont easily be able to sell....a futile effort on your part

Umm - I see what you mean. Presenting facts must be hugely unusual for you; an emotional experience, in fact.

Unlike you, I meet dozens of Kashmiris. There are still separatists, lots of them. But my assessment, from personal meetings and discussions, is that the number has fallen sharply in the recent past, till before the floods. Many exist; I agree, but their numbers are a fraction of what they were.

Regarding mass graves, I have said it before and I will say it again. Only a fraction of those killed, less than two figures in percentages, are native to the Vale. The vast majority are Punjabi; the number of Pushtun has died away, due to reasons that no doubt you would know better. All these who are killed are handed over to the local police, who make arrangements to bury them. They are not very meticulous in their record-keeping. On the other sides, enough independent observers have gone into the families of those Pakistani terrorists who died trying to cross the border; their testimony is in print. A simple comparison of the mass graves and the number of terrorists killed will show you an exact and immediate fit.

You already have a track record of denying and disclaiming your dead.

AFSPA, as I mentioned - you might have been busy elsewhere - is a constitutional requirement. I know constitutions are strange and mysterious animals, but try to get used to them. There's one in Pakistan, and sooner or later it will be invoked. It does nothing but ensure that soldiers can fire when they need to, without a civilian magistrate (constitutions, and civilised countries require that; I thought you'd like to know).

As for getting worked up, I do resent lies. You opened with one, and I had the dubious pleasure of nailing your hide to the barn door. I don't like unpleasantness; I like lies even less.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Talking of facts, I thought you would be more careful with your own 'facts' first as rebutted by @Joe Shearer earlier (about the ratio of security personnel to civilians). At the very least, an acknowledgement of the inaccuracy was in order!

Don't worry; he has a shopping list of atrocities, churned out by professionals. He will bring them out one at a time, each time his pants are pulled off.

 

[Bang Galore]

AFSPA, since you know nothing about constitutions, is a constitutional necessity; otherwise, like Pakistan often does, there is nothing to be done but declare martial law. We tend to do things slightly differently. We don't shoot air-to-ground rockets into caves after our dissidents.

Yeah, they seem to have difficulty in grasping the notion that armed forces actually require a law to operate.