Domestic & Social Crimes [Mob/ Vigilante justice] Thread

[Awesome]

Why allow hijab or minarets or other Muslim practices in west when it hurts millions of westerners? You are actually justifying these restrictions. This list of restrictions on Muslims in west may even extend in future. Tomorrow some in west may demand ban on propagation of Islam as they deem it an extremist or anti-western religion not in line with western traditions. The far right BNP party has already declared that they will not allow building of any more mosques in UK if they came to power. I am guessing you will not have any problem with that. I don't see any difference in what you are saying and what these far right parties stand for.

Unfortunately it is the way of the world. We have power we can tyrannize you. They have power, they can tyrannize us.

Everything aside, the Quran commands us otherwise.

1 Say to the disbelievers
2 "I worship not that which you worship,
3 "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4 "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5 "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6 "To you be your religion, and to me my religion."

 

[kugga]

Why allow hijab or minarets or other Muslim practices in west when it hurts millions of westerners? You are actually justifying these restrictions. This list of restrictions on Muslims in west may even extend in future. Tomorrow some in west may demand ban on propagation of Islam as they deem it an extremist or anti-western religion not in line with western traditions. The far right BNP party has already declared that they will not allow building of any more mosques in UK if they came to power. I am guessing you will not have any problem with that.

Obviously UK is a democratic country and if there people do not want any more mosques its there decision I cannot say any thing like the government of Belgium has passed the law against hijab but if you want democracy you will have to bear all this.... democracy says that masses are always right and that's what is its products if you want to counter the acts of Belgium govt you must have a population on your

 

[kugga]

You contradict yourself because Taliban not only hurt your feelings, they kill and destroy but they have not been deemed as non Muslims. Why not brand them non Muslims first and then repeat this statement.

Taliban cannot be declared non-muslims as per this hadeeth


Volume 1, Book 8, Number 417:

Narrated 'Itban bin Malik:

who was one of the companions of Allah's Apostle and one of the Ansar's who took part in the battle of Badr: I came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle I have weak eyesight and I lead my people in prayers. When it rains the water flows in the valley between me and my people so I cannot go to their mosque to lead them in prayer. O Allah's Apostle! I wish you would come to my house and pray in it so that I could take that place as a Musalla. Allah's Apostle said. "Allah willing, I will do so." Next day after the sun rose high, Allah's Apostle and Abu Bakr came and Allah's Apostle asked for permission to enter. I gave him permission and he did not sit on entering the house but said to me, "Where do you like me to pray?" I pointed to a place in my house. So Allah's Apostle stood there and said, 'Allahu Akbar', and we all got up and aligned behind him and offered a two-Rak'at prayer and ended it with Taslim. We requested him to stay for a meal called "Khazira" which we had prepared for him. Many members of our family gathered in the house and one of them said, "Where is Malik bin Al-Dukhaishin or Ibn Al-Dukhshun?" One of them replied, "He is a hypocrite and does not love Allah and His Apostle." Hearing that, Allah's Apostle said, "Do not say so. Haven't you seen that he said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah' for Allah's sake only?" He said, "Allah and His Apostle know better. We have seen him helping and advising hypocrites."

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah has forbidden the (Hell) fire for those who say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah' for Allah's sake only."


second thing Ahamdi's cannot be termed as Muslims as Quran says Prophet (S.A.W) as Kahtim ul Nabiyeen means the seal of prophets i.e the Last Messanger of Allah.

Now what I am saying that Ahmadi's are non-muslims if they misuse the name of Islam its wrong and Taliban the Muslims(As we cannot declare them non-muslims) if they misuse Islam's name they are also wrong and Paksitani govt. should take steps to counter both of them.

One final question for you and most other people, do you prefer to live with Ahmadies or such groups as the Taliban who follow the wahabi/salafi hardline sect. Which one would you term as a non Muslim through state passed law and remember, Ahmadies only hurt your feelings but if your faith is strong you can live with it whereas Taliban would bomb your family and then that would really hurt your sensitive feelings.

Look Talibans is a race not all taliban are militants. It looks to you the all of them are bad but there are good talibans as well... and as far living is concerned I can live with any one if I am not the chooser, but if I am given a choice I will never prefer Ahmadi's because they say that their bullshit prophet was equivalent to Holy prophet(S.A.W)..... their prophet say that he and Muhammad (S.A.W) are like an man seeing his image in a mirror and he termed himself as the man and Muhammad (S.A.W) as his Image....... and then the Ahmadi's say that they are msulims this thing is rediculous..... I don't want to kill them all I jsut don't want to term there religion as Islam term it something else... term it chritianity, term it hinduism then it will be no more my business

Great philosophy, so another sect claiming to be Muslim can hurt the 'feelings' of a Muslim majority based on their differences. May I ask how does it hurt your feelings, in what sense do you feel hurt by another sect claiming to be of your religion..

Explained above

 

[kugga]

The Quran commands us otherwise.

1 Say to the disbelievers
2 "I worship not that which you worship,
3 "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4 "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5 "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6 "To you be your religion, and to me my religion."

But don't say that your and mine religion is the same if you are an ahmadi coz being an ahmadi is like adopting another religion so name you religion ahmadiya or something like that...... why Islam??
Take your religion to yourself and let my religion to be mine

 

[Meesna]

Obviously UK is a democratic country and if there people do not want any more mosques its there decision I cannot say any thing like the government of Belgium has passed the law against hijab but if you want democracy you will have to bear all this.... democracy says that masses are always right and that's what is its products if you want to counter the acts of Belgium govt you must have a population on your

You agree that if sunnis make laws against shias, in other words persecute them legally, that is fine as they are in majority. If brelvis want to make such laws against deobandis or jamaat islami that is fine too as they are in majority too. Punjabis can make such laws against other ethnicities and that would be fine as they are in majority.

In trying to take away rights of Ahmadis you have come up with a principle that no shia, doebandi, jamaati or non-Punjabi would agree to and hopefully many from majorities will disagree as well.

Come up with something that does not show you as insane. You don't want to give Ahmadis their rights but you need to come up with a better excuse to justify their persecution.

 

[Meesna]

But don't say that your and mine religion is the same if you are an ahmadi coz being an ahmadi is like adopting another religion so name you religion ahmadiya or something like that...... why Islam??
Take your religion to yourself and let my religion to be mine

But problem is you want to define your own religion, as well as their religion for them.

You believe what you want to believe and let them believe what they want to believe. That is what "To you be your religion, and to me my religion" is. Its not "To you be my defined religion, and to me my religion"

 

[kugga]

You agree that if sunnis make laws against shias, in other words persecute them legally, that is fine as they are in majority. If brelvis want to make such laws against deobandis or jamaat islami that is fine too as they are in majority too. Punjabis can make such laws against other ethnicities and that would be fine as they are in majority.

In trying to take away rights of Ahmadis you have come up with a principle that no shia, doebandi, jamaati or non-Punjabi would agree to and hopefully many from majorities will disagree as well.

Come up with something that does not show you as insane. You don't want to give Ahmadis their rights but you need to come up with a better excuse to justify their persecution.

Look bro there is no comparison between shia sunni and ahmadis you can comapre them to chritians or hindus because ahmadiya is totally a different religion..... and I never said they shouldn't be given rights but I am agianst calling them as muslims coz they are surely not if you don't beleive me go read books of ahmadiya and then read quran you will find out wat um saying is right....
They are living here with full rights except that they cannot say themselves as muslims but still they are saying themselves and they are not barred at all for this....
Ahamdiyas form the elites of pakistan if you are not living abroad you might know this..... there children study in best schools of pakistan they have lots of worship places of them here.... I can show you many in Lahore if you want to....
Now what sort rights you want???

 

[kugga]

But problem is you want to define your own religion, as well as their religion for them.

You believe what you want to believe and let them believe what they want to believe. That is what "To you be your religion, and to me my religion" is. Its not "To you be my defined religion, and to me my religion"

I 've never said that ahamadis should include this in there religion and should not include that....

My simple point is that
" Don't call my religion as yours "

 

[Meesna]

Look bro there is no comparison between shia sunni and ahmadis you can comapre them to chritians or hindus because ahmadiya is totally a different religion.....

There is absolute comparison as Ahmadis are human and as such have every human right. Until you become king of the world that is how it stands. You need to argue within some commonly held principles. Just because you think Ahmadis are untouchables and are lesser humans with lesser rights does not make it so. It does show you as a bigot of worst kind though.

and I never said they shouldn't be given rights but I am agianst calling them as muslims coz they are surely not if you don't beleive me go read books of ahmadiya and then read quran you will find out wat um saying is right....

Well they sure consider themselves Muslims and that is good enough, they have a right to consider themselves whatever they want. As for other sects they too disagree with each other to the extent to call each other kafir and even kill each other even to this day and that is wrong too for the same reason that each one of them has a right to call themselves Muslim and not be killed for that.

They are living here with full rights except that they cannot say themselves as muslims but still they are saying themselves and they are not barred at all for this....

Completely untrue. They routinely get killed and are persecuted and discriminated against despite the anti-Ahmadi laws being in place too and routinely applied.

Ahamdiyas form the elites of pakistan if you are not living abroad you might know this.....

Name those elite as I don't believe you. One or two names do not make a whole community, community of elites. Also what sort of elite are they that they can not stop their persecution neither the laws against them? This negates your claim of being elite.

there children study in best schools of pakistan they have lots of worship places of them here.... I can show you many in Lahore if you want to....

Also tell us how many of Ahmadi children are discriminated against in admissions, are continuously harassed or their parents killed or sent t to prison for years just for being Ahmadi? Hundreds at least.

How many of Ahmadi mosques have been burnt, destroyed or taken over? Hundreds.

Show us those too to show the correct picture.

Now what sort rights you want???

All citizens and all humans deserve equal rights without reference to their faith which is their own personal matter.

 

[Meesna]

I 've never said that ahamadis should include this in there religion and should not include that....

My simple point is that
" Don't call my religion as yours "

Who made it your religion? Show me the letter from God. It's a religion right? So the certificate must come from god. This argument is same as by sunnsi against shias and shias against sunnis and deobandis brelvis etc. All of them claim Islam to be theirs and kill others. This is also not limited to Islam, other religions have the same problem within. Same old same old.

 

[Meesna]

...

Here is an interesting Geo TV debate for you;

 

[kugga]

There is absolute comparison as Ahmadis are human and as such have every human right. Until you become king of the world that is how it stands. You need to argue within some commonly held principles. Just because you think Ahmadis are untouchables and are lesser humans with lesser rights does not make it so. It does show you as a bigot of worst kind though.

I have never said that that's all in your mind sir.....

Well they sure consider themselves Muslims and that is good enough, they have a right to consider themselves whatever they want. As for other sects they too disagree with each other to the extent to call each other kafir and even kill each other even to this day and that is wrong too for the same reason that each one of them has a right to call themselves Muslim and not be killed for that.

O cum on no sect no sect says that if a person believes in a new prophet he's muslim.... NO SECT AT ALL
whether it shia or sunni
Shia sunni fight is on history and it's true that some of them try prove others as kafirs but I have provided you the hadith before and also an Ayat of quran which no sect denies and that proves the whole story........
Islam is religion and I am muslim and I have a right to defend it. Create a sect but not a new religion in religion.....
yaar I don't want to tell here what are there beliefs coz it will turn out to be a separate discussion but I simply assure you that no sect of Islam allows a new prophet coz its against Quran

Name those elite as I don't believe you. One or two names do not make a whole community, community of elites. Also what sort of elite are they that they can not stop their persecution neither the laws against them? This negates your claim of being elite.



Also tell us how many of Ahmadi children are discriminated against in admissions, are continuously harassed or their parents killed or sent t to prison for years just for being Ahmadi? Hundreds at least.

How many of Ahmadi mosques have been burnt, destroyed or taken over? Hundreds.

Show us those too to show the correct picture.



All citizens and all humans deserve equal rights without reference to their faith which is their own personal matter.

You are not living in Paksitan, I guess, that is why you are far far away from ground realities.... I cannot prove it to you that ahmadis are elites here coz I don't have a news paper on my side and you have a heck of news papers on your side saying that minorities are being crushed and whatever.......
I 've many ahmadi friends mind it and they are enjoying the same equal rights as I am and even more.... Ahamdis prefer ahmadi's in their company ,they help each other on the basis of religion, they have discriminatory behaviour towards muslims when it comes to helping.... I have to suffer a lot to find my first job but all my ahmadi friend, mind it ,"all" of them got job in one month just because they were ahmadi and there community memebers were helping them in there respective fields...... and you say that "Bara zulm ho raha hai in beychaaron par.... " not at all bro they are living here exactly like I m living here..... all my ahmadi friends have houses in best societies of Lahore like DHA and they own them...... they own factories they own software houses they own resturants bakeries..... and they help each other on the basis of religion that's what I found out about ahmadis and believe me I am very close to them.......

and brother director of my university (NU-FAST) hope you have heared the name is an ahmadi him self and many professors are also hope you get it now that they are not discriminated when it comes to education

Completely untrue. They routinely get killed and are persecuted and discriminated against despite the anti-Ahmadi laws being in place too and routinely applied.

I am very close to my friends and I had debates with them on all such issues they never mensioned any such incident except those in 1953 I guess and something in 1973...... and nothing else..... no current incident at all.
A man is killed and then his murder is used by the media just to earn money......
Like BLA killed a lady professor , no one knew that she was a shia muslim, but dawn news tried even this incident to show negative side of Islam they tried to claim it a sectarian murder, thanks to BLA they took the responsibility other wise it was also to be blaimed on Islam

 

[Al-zakir]

and wtf is that its writen they are targetted becoz of ahmadi faith???, first their house was robbed, its the plain case of robbery and nothing more. its strange the robbers are not demanding the ransom and have said its becoz of theor faith.

Condemn any unjust killing. Every creature has the right to live in peace but death is everyday things in current Pakistan. Let’s condemn all innocent killing regardless the religious barrier.

ahmadis are not muslims but that doesnt make them minority like sikhs and christians, they still believe some things from islam like shias do..

No wonder muslims are so divided.


You are being ignorant here. I know you are banned but still need to clarify something here. Ahmedis or Qadyanis are pure kafir because they do not believe in Rasul (S.W.S) as last prophet of men kinds whereas 95% Shias(Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Lebanon(Hezbollah)) are pure Muslims with exception of some kafir in the name of Shias scatter around some part of Pakistan and elsewhere.

Ahmedis or Qadyanis appeared from Sunni section of Muslims who believe Mirza Ahmed as the last of prophet of Islam (nauzubillah) similarly some fake Shias (insignificant number) believe that Hazrat Ali(RA) should have been the prophet(nauzubillah) instead of Muhammad(S.W.S).

Only difference between Sunni and Shia Muslim is political rather than fundamental faith of Islam.

Learns some thing about Islam before making some foolish generalized statement that will cause further division among ummat-e-Rasul(S.W.S)

Thanks

 

[kugga]

Only difference between Sunni and Shia Muslim is political rather than fundamental faith of Islam.

I totally agree if read history the difference looks to be more political than faith related whereas in case of ahmadis the difference is of faith...

 

[Awesome]

I 've never said that ahamadis should include this in there religion and should not include that....

My simple point is that
" Don't call my religion as yours "

Their religion IS that they are followers of Prophet Muhammad and one more person. The one more person said it is the same religion. You can't stop them from believing that they are the same religion. Even if you don't let them say it out loud, they still believe it.

They can say we are Muslims, you can even say that they are not Muslims.

As long as the conflict is verbal it is a conflict of ideas and its all legal. When you act violent and start killing or jailing people then you make Muslims look idiotic, weak and insecure. More people will run away from Islam than join it from this promotion of caveman behavior. Don't let it happen.