Does the PN need an aircraft carrier?

[jagjitnatt]

Hi,
I know what i am about to say might strike weird to some people but i don't get it when we cant cant afford to buy some equipment then why don't we shed this traditional approach as well instead of going with some thing which is far inferior to the potential threat, i mean if Pakistan cannot have 5 th generation fighter jets then why not try to make air defenses fools proof and that is not a bigger deal given the way Pakistan has developed some good long range ballistic missiles, so if we cannot afford to have an AC or advanced submarines, frigates, destroyers then why not adopt a strategy which would ensure some strong defense i mean why can't Pakistan try to procure DF-21 Anti Ship Ballistic Missile from China which has a range of 3000 Km i bet even the American carriers would think twice before venturing into Pakistan's territorial waters if Pakistan has any such capability, so what im trying to say here he is that if India goes for some thing why is it a pre-requisite for us to do the same why cant we go towards some innovative strategies

Your ideas are valid. But the approach is a little out of place. 5th gen fighters are stealth, detecting them would be tough and destroying them with a ground based missile would be tougher.

Regarding the anti-ship missile, no country signatory to MCTR can exchange missile technology with another country with a range of over 300 km. So no exchange of missile or missile tech.

As it is ballistic missiles are not good against ships. Cruise missiles are way better.

Pakistan doesn't need an aircraft carrier and cannot afford one before 2030 at least. And the first carrier would be a chinese carrier for sure.

 

[Indiarox]

Hi,
I know what i am about to say might strike weird to some people but i don't get it when we cant cant afford to buy some equipment then why don't we shed this traditional approach as well instead of going with some thing which is far inferior to the potential threat, i mean if Pakistan cannot have 5 th generation fighter jets then why not try to make air defenses fools proof and that is not a bigger deal given the way Pakistan has developed some good long range ballistic missiles, so if we cannot afford to have an AC or advanced submarines, frigates, destroyers then why not adopt a strategy which would ensure some strong defense i mean why can't Pakistan try to procure DF-21 Anti Ship Ballistic Missile from China which has a range of 3000 Km i bet even the American carriers would think twice before venturing into Pakistan's territorial waters if Pakistan has any such capability, so what im trying to say here he is that if India goes for some thing why is it a pre-requisite for us to do the same why cant we go towards some innovative strategies

Nice idea.
It has some flaws :
Flaw1:Your idea of countering5th gen aircraft
in order to counter 5th gen aircraft you need another 5th gen aircraft or radically new radar system and good enough 4++ gen aircraft to deliver the killer blow.
Flaw2:3000 + km range ballistic missile
China can't give it to they cant give ant thing beyond 300km
You got to make it your self(not an easy job)
Cruise missiles are more effective at destroying ships
Flaw3: taking on american ships
the Americans can pulverize you weapons from american soil and only then send Carrier battle group in to action.
The carrier group has defense like missile and gun systems
As you said innovation is needed but the ones you stated are not applicable.
Direct completion with India in defense spending will only further weaken you already fragile economy.
You could go for a ship like INS Jalashwa which would be good for your small fleet.
Your open to disagree.

 

[bc040400065]

no way it should be done even i don't think PN should go for Nuclear subs... just we need to do is to build up navy to atleast a moderate and capable force. buy more heavy frigates or destroyers and more submarines ... thats it.... we don't need AC.

 

[Peregrine]

Nice idea.
It has some flaws :
Flaw1:Your idea of countering5th gen aircraft
in order to counter 5th gen aircraft you need another 5th gen aircraft or radically new radar system and good enough 4++ gen aircraft to deliver the killer blow.
Flaw2:3000 + km range ballistic missile
China can't give it to they cant give ant thing beyond 300km
You got to make it your self(not an easy job)
Cruise missiles are more effective at destroying ships
Flaw3: taking on american ships
the Americans can pulverize you weapons from american soil and only then send Carrier battle group in to action.
The carrier group has defense like missile and gun systems
As you said innovation is needed but the ones you stated are not applicable.
Direct completion with India in defense spending will only further weaken you already fragile economy.
You could go for a ship like INS Jalashwa which would be good for your small fleet.
Your open to disagree.

Hi,
actually u misunderstood my point i wasn't suggesting a hard line policy to use anti stealth or anti ship technology these were just examples of some innovative strategies. I hope you understand my point now, by the way we can hold a huge discussion regarding China assisting Pakistan in developing anti ship technology and also the present status of Vera radar( which is very effective in detecting stealth jets) its again a common principle if stealth is around we shouldn't be under any delusions that there will be no anti stealth technology, & there is nothing that suggestts that u only need stealth fighter to counter stealth. any ways this is little off topic but i just wanted to make a point that if Pakistan cannot buy any AC, Pakistan should explore some other potential alternatives to ensure her saftey. and thanks for appreciating my ideas. Jaginatt & bc040400065

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The best bet for PN would be to drop the Corvettes (it would be a waste of money). Do not even think about any destroyers. Concentrate upon Frigates with anti-submarine (with capable shipboard aerial platforms) and anti air (We severely lack Anti-Air capability on all our ships) weapons suit -- not more than two types.

Invest in fast missile boats (today we severely lack in this area). They are good for a combat patrol of 100 plus miles to prevent a 71' like scenario where the Indians fired STYX Missiles into Karachi harbor (I am a witness to that attack) and almost blocked off the main shipping channel! The missile boats can respond quickly and are great harbor approach defenders.

The strike element should be the submarine. We should invest in at least eight vessels equipped with Harpoons and excocets. Do not go beyond two types as it would mean maint. problems. A good bet would be to go the French route and not endlessly wait for the German thing to pan out. The AFPAK (lol) situation is going to grow less important in the future -- we should take advantage of the situation now.

The third fleet replenishment ship would make sense to ensure at least three bases (Two dedicated and a third one in Gawader or Pasni) are operational with no more than 400 mile sea patrols at a time for our major units and keeping them under air cover -- we need to dedicate at least two + squadrons to defend our sea approaches and give cover for convoy escorting frigates.

Sixteen Frigates (6 + 4 + 6)
Eight patrol subs (2 + 3 +3 +(2 replacement))
Atleast 16 Fast missile crafts
Three Fleet replenishment ships (2+1)
Atleast six mine hunters (3 +3)

My two cents worth!

 

[jagjitnatt]

The best bet for PN would be to drop the Corvettes (it would be a waste of money). Do not even think about any destroyers. Concentrate upon Frigates with anti-submarine (with capable shipboard aerial platforms) and anti air (We severely lack Anti-Air capability on all our ships) weapons suit -- not more than two types.

Invest in fast missile boats (today we severely lack in this area). They are good for a combat patrol of 100 plus miles to prevent a 71' like scenario where the Indians fired STYX Missiles into Karachi harbor (I am a witness to that attack) and almost blocked off the main shipping channel! The missile boats can respond quickly and are great harbor approach defenders.

The strike element should be the submarine. We should invest in at least eight vessels equipped with Harpoons and excocets. Do not go beyond two types as it would mean maint. problems. A good bet would be to go the French route and not endlessly wait for the German thing to pan out. The AFPAK (lol) situation is going to grow less important in the future -- we should take advantage of the situation now.

The third fleet replenishment ship would make sense to ensure at least three bases (Two dedicated and a third one in Gawader or Pasni) are operational with no more than 400 mile sea patrols at a time for our major units and keeping them under air cover -- we need to dedicate at least two + squadrons to defend our sea approaches and give cover for convoy escorting frigates.

Sixteen Frigates (6 + 4 + 6)
Eight patrol subs (2 + 3 +3 +(2 replacement))
Atleast 16 Fast missile crafts
Three Fleet replenishment ships (2+1)
Atleast six mine hunters (3 +3)

My two cents worth!

your post was worth much more than 2 cents i guess. very sensible post.

 

[Peregrine]

The best bet for PN would be to drop the Corvettes (it would be a waste of money). Do not even think about any destroyers. Concentrate upon Frigates with anti-submarine (with capable shipboard aerial platforms) and anti air (We severely lack Anti-Air capability on all our ships) weapons suit -- not more than two types.

Invest in fast missile boats (today we severely lack in this area). They are good for a combat patrol of 100 plus miles to prevent a 71' like scenario where the Indians fired STYX Missiles into Karachi harbor (I am a witness to that attack) and almost blocked off the main shipping channel! The missile boats can respond quickly and are great harbor approach defenders.

The strike element should be the submarine. We should invest in at least eight vessels equipped with Harpoons and excocets. Do not go beyond two types as it would mean maint. problems. A good bet would be to go the French route and not endlessly wait for the German thing to pan out. The AFPAK (lol) situation is going to grow less important in the future -- we should take advantage of the situation now.

The third fleet replenishment ship would make sense to ensure at least three bases (Two dedicated and a third one in Gawader or Pasni) are operational with no more than 400 mile sea patrols at a time for our major units and keeping them under air cover -- we need to dedicate at least two + squadrons to defend our sea approaches and give cover for convoy escorting frigates.

Sixteen Frigates (6 + 4 + 6)
Eight patrol subs (2 + 3 +3 +(2 replacement))
Atleast 16 Fast missile crafts
Three Fleet replenishment ships (2+1)
Atleast six mine hunters (3 +3)

My two cents worth!

Hi,
Exactly so i think majority of people here would agree that AC's are not the requirement for Pakistan to counter India, Since Pakistani strategy is defensive and not offensive we should have minimum credible deterrence but only through potent equipment or technology should not compromise on that, having missile boats is some thing which always struck me that why not try to develop long range missile boats if u cant have other heavy equipment.

 

[Chanakyaa]

i think pakistan should get many AIP based subs a two fold solution to counter indian carrier and nuclear subs.

Economical yet effective.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

No we dont need a carrier!!!! Not anytime soon. Unless the doctrines change

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We should place an order for 1 Aircraft carrier so it would be ready in 3-4 years time and if we save for 3-5 years we should be able to afford it by then

In 3-4 years time , we will get getting revenue by supplying gas to china coming from iran and also our economy will be 100% healthy ...

By then our JF17 Thunder would also be ready with naval version so its a good idea to place and MOU with France , for 1 Aircraft carrier now - so by 2014-15 we will be ready to recive it

We are owed 500 million unpaid dues by US invest that fun into downpayment for a french aircraft carrier - and arrange for other 400-900 million dollars over 2-3 years

We get one Aircraft carrier with friends of Pakistan deal , and let do it and get one aircraft carrier

We can put 10 JF17 thunders, get 2 F22P frigates and 2 missile boats to protect the carrier ....

Getting a new is good as it will last us for 25 years !!

Also US is retiring some of its aircraft carriers if we plan properly we could get 1 of them for our navy

 

[Chanakyaa]

As others pointed out u need to order not just the carrier but the entire BG.. And u need money for that something like 5-10 Billion $.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

agha....Pakistan Navy doesnt even have a combat air wing; though I think in medium-long term we will induct fighters to foster to naval role. At this time I believe Mirage-Vs are dispatched by PAF to provide eye in the sky for the fleet


carrier is definately not a priority for Pakistan now; though maybe in foreseeable future we may induct them help by China.


for now, my suggestion would be to focus on developing, introducing and inducting an anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) -- should have a range of at least 1,500 to 2000 kilometers.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

You simply cannot have just a carrier by itself---you will have a cvarrier battle group---a flotilla of surface, submerged and in the air assets.

That cost would run into closer to 10---15 billion dollars. Now pakistan navy is not going to be invading any country away from its shores---there is no mindset of force projection against rest of the world, there will be many a known enemy ( india ) and many unknown enemies ( israel, u s, britain, russia, submersible fleet ).

We will not be fighting only one enemy---people will be after our assets from the submersibles---the super powers and israel can do the biddings of india and we won't know who sunk the carrier.

Only with half that money---pak can have an extremely potent, defensive and offensive force---with long and medium range sams, dedicated sqdrns for the navy like the J 11's, submarines,a mixture of chinese 054 class frigates and some french frigates as well + the ohp's and we are in business.

A carrier will bog us down---it will be a back breaker and will be a cause of defeat either millitarily or economically.

 

[BlackenTheSky]

Well in my view no one can tag any Navy 'modern' unless it has aircraft carrier.

 

[BlackenTheSky]

If PN buys aircraft carrier then the next problem will be of buying planes.What if PAF donates its all replaced aircrafts like F-7 and mirage so that for next 3 or 4 years it could work and then PN can buy new ones later.what u guys think?