Do Pakistanis feel schadenfreude towards India's Minorities?

[Imam Bukhari]

......I always place my nationality after my religion unlike your blind Indian nationalists who are quick to labell others as traitor because they say something against Mahaan incredible India. Can a Muslim in India say that his loyalty to Islam come before loyalty to land as per their Islamic teachings ? I am sure if they dare to said what I just said, they will be labelled as traitor

Raja Bhai,

I agree with you that everybody these days seems quick to label everybody else as a traitor. I also agree with you that most our people generally do not place their Nationality First.

While it is possible that you, as an individual, might personally put your Religion First, I must point out that is certainly not the norm in Pakistan.

In fact, there is plenty of evidence that our people do not consider themselves Muslims First. Here is why:

We have all heard many Pashtun, Sindhi and Baloch leaders (educated, English-capable, well-read people) say, "We have been Sindhi/Baloch/Pashtun for 5000 years, we have been Muslim for 1000 years, but we have been Pakistani for just 50 years".

We know that this view is not just limited to a few people, but is actually widely-held by the masses, because we can see:

(1) Pathan & Muhajir Demography Fights in Karachi
(2) Muhajir & Sindhi Demography Fights in Hyderbad
(3) Punjabi & Baloch Demography Fights in Gwadar
(4) Balti & Kashmiri Demography Fights in Skardu

If most Pakistanis really were Muslim First and Sindhi/Muhajir/Punjabi/Pathan/Baloch Second, would these fights really be taking place? Wouldn't the Sindhis be comfortable with the Pathans & Muhajirs changing the ethnic-demography of Sindh, because after all they are Muslims as well and the Muslim-demography would not change? And what about the Baloch who are so resentful of all other Pakistanis that migrate into Balochistan? If they were truly Muslims first, wouldn't they be accepting of other Muslims and not revolt against ethnic-demographic change?

Still further, if you recall, the ethnic Pashtuns refugees fleeing Afghanistan were not resented much in Pakistani Pashtunkhwa, but were bitterly resented by the Muhajirs & Sindhis when they moved in large numbers to settle in Pathan-areas of Karachi in Sindh. This shows that the ethno-linguistic bond (Pakistani-Pashtun, Afghan-Pashtun) is the strongest, the religious bond (Baloch-Sunni, Punjabi-Sunni) is much weaker and the National Bond (Shia_Sindhi-Pakistani, Sunni_Pathan-Pakistani) is the weakest of them all.

Clearly, our people are Sindhi/Muhajir/Baloch/Punjabi/Pathan/Seraik/Khowar/Kashmiri/Balti/Shin First, Muslims Second and Pakistani only a distant Third. And this is shown by both, the behaviour of our people, as well as the often-quoted idea that "We have been (X) for 5000 years, we have been Muslim for 1000 years, but we have been Pakistani for just 50 years"

Just wishing that a romantic ideal were true, does not actually make it come true.

 

[livingdead]

^^^ As far as I remember, he is british man of pakistani origin. So basically it is 'islam' before 'uk' for him. I am not sure your post is relevant for him.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

^^^

@ Imam Bukhari

I entirely disagree with what you are saying but before I begin unpicking your opening piece may I ask which part of Pakistan you are from and does your family originate from India as it was on the 20th August 1947?

Thank you.

* And kindly do not refer to me as 'Bhai', I have to my knowledge only two and I know your not neither.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Raja Bhai,

I agree with you that everybody these days seems quick to label everybody else as a traitor. I also agree with you that most our people generally do not place their Nationality First.

While it is possible that you, as an individual, might personally put your Religion First, I must point out that is certainly not the norm in Pakistan.

In fact, there is plenty of evidence that our people do not consider themselves Muslims First. Here is why:

We have all heard many Pashtun, Sindhi and Baloch leaders (educated, English-capable, well-read people) say, "We have been Sindhi/Baloch/Pashtun for 5000 years, we have been Muslim for 1000 years, but we have been Pakistani for just 50 years".

We know that this view is not just limited to a few people, but is actually widely-held by the masses, because we can see:

(1) Pathan & Muhajir Demography Fights in Karachi
(2) Muhajir & Sindhi Demography Fights in Hyderbad
(3) Punjabi & Baloch Demography Fights in Gwadar
(4) Balti & Kashmiri Demography Fights in Skardu

If most Pakistanis really were Muslim First and Sindhi/Muhajir/Punjabi/Pathan/Baloch Second, would these fights really be taking place? Wouldn't the Sindhis be comfortable with the Pathans & Muhajirs changing the ethnic-demography of Sindh, because after all they are Muslims as well and the Muslim-demography would not change? And what about the Baloch who are so resentful of all other Pakistanis that migrate into Balochistan? If they were truly Muslims first, wouldn't they be accepting of other Muslims and not revolt against ethnic-demographic change?

Still further, if you recall, the ethnic Pashtuns refugees fleeing Afghanistan were not resented much in Pakistani Pashtunkhwa, but were bitterly resented by the Muhajirs & Sindhis when they moved in large numbers to settle in Pathan-areas of Karachi in Sindh. This shows that the ethno-linguistic bond (Pakistani-Pashtun, Afghan-Pashtun) is the strongest, the religious bond (Baloch-Sunni, Punjabi-Sunni) is much weaker and the National Bond (Shia_Sindhi-Pakistani, Sunni_Pathan-Pakistani) is the weakest of them all.

Clearly, our people are Sindhi/Muhajir/Baloch/Punjabi/Pathan/Seraik/Khowar/Kashmiri/Balti/Shin First, Muslims Second and Pakistani only a distant Third. And this is shown by both, the behaviour of our people, as well as the often-quoted idea that "We have been (X) for 5000 years, we have been Muslim for 1000 years, but we have been Pakistani for just 50 years"

Just wishing that a romantic ideal were true, does not actually make it come true.

You were telling others that they should only speak for themselves but here you are trying to speak for all Punjabi, Sindhi, balochi, pashtun Pakistani. If you read my post carefully i was expressing my personal views irrespective of whether others agree with me or not. I have lived in four provinces of Pakistan because my father was army man and we were migrated from one city to others very often and i had interaction with pashtuns, Sindhi, muhajair and some balochi and i have noticed that almost all of them have great sense of pride in their religion and give strong importance to Islam before anything else..

If ethnicity were stronger than religion why many Muslims in subcontinent would have sacrificed their lives, properties and wealth to create Pakistan and just to get in there ? Whatever conflicts you mentioned above have nothing to with them considering ethnicity before Islam. It all has do with incompetent of central government who did not managed resources and conflicts well and somehow oppressed or discriminated some groups on ethnic grounds whether you call them Bengali, balochi or pashtuns.

^^^ As far as I remember, he is british man of pakistani origin. So basically it is 'islam' before 'uk' for him. I am not sure your post is relevant for him.

I told you many times that i am not even British let alone British born. I am Pakistani living and working in united kingdom after finishing his education there. Please write it down for future correspondence

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Do Pakistanis feel schadenfreude towards India's Minorities? <----- No. No one cares about Indian minorities and what happens to them! Period! Personally, I don't care if they are progressing or regressing. They are Indians FIRST and then whatever.

 

[livingdead]

I told you many times that i am not even British let alone British born. I am Pakistani living and working in united kingdom after finishing his education there. Please write it down for future correspondence

Okey sorry, my fault, it was the guy with another kids photo then (razpak? maybe). I remember in a thread I was pointed out that UK is as much 'his' country as white people's and 'he' is not a guest. I thought it was you.
You are the one into accounting then?

Do Pakistanis feel schadenfreude towards India's Minorities? <----- No. No one cares about Indian minorities and what happens to them! Period! Personally, I don't care if they are progressing or regressing. They are Indians FIRST and then whatever.

Because indian muslims are dark skinned?

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Okey sorry, my fault, it was the guy with another kids photo then (razpak? maybe). I remember in a thread I was pointed out that UK is as much 'his' country as white people's and 'he' is not a guest. I thought it was you.
You are the one into accounting then?


Because indian muslims are dark skinned?

Don't try to bait me into an argument and try to get me banned.

Nope, it is from my own personal experience with them. I have met many Indian Muslims (Gujaratis, Hyderabadis, Biharis) etc and they try to act very nationalistic and how much they love India. When they are with their Indian Hindu friends, many times they overact to show their loyalties towards India, so no one doubts them about their "loyalties". It is evident that they are an insecure bunch of ppl. And in each n everything they like to compete with Pakistanis. They are really annoying.

On the other hand, I have much better experience with Indian Hindus, Christians etc.
(NON-PDF ones of course) lolz

 

[Indus Pakistan]

^^^

@ Imam Bukhari

Not that it is significant but my feeling is your not a Pakistani. At any rate I would like to give my perspective on the thread title.

I had a look at the exact meaning of the German word schadenfreude and I understand it means "gloat over an enemy's misfortune". So if your asking do many Pakistani's draw satisfaction from the problems Indian minorities face in India my unequivocal answer is yes.

I don't think there is anything exceptional here and I can't see why you have made such a big deal out of this. Pakistan and India have history of animosity and both draw pleasure from the slightest misfortune of the other. Both are busy [at times even masked as genuine concern] at exposing each others posteriors. So I don't see why you consider this particular example of schadenfreude exceptional.

Of course could it be that your using this as a premise to attempt to find flaws in the very existance of or find the creation of Pakistan as 'wrong and artificial' well that is another matter and I would be more than happy to bust any such thoughts that you or other Indian's who will have flocked to this thread to draw vicarious pleasure, that you accuse Pakistani's of.

As you have used this thread to carry out vivisecetion Of Pakistani society I might as well give my opinion on the matter. Without a doubt Pakistan exists at differant levels. One the practical and real, the other the ideal. If they are asked their identity many in public will reply with a ideal answer as:-

(i) Muslim.
(ii) Pakistani
(iii) Punjabi, Pashtun etc.

In their practice and in the real world actions they will display:-

(i) Clan affiliation
(ii) Bradheri.
(iii) Ethnic group
(iv) Islam
(v) Pakistan

These are not absolutes and are gross generalizations of mass of heterogenous people tainted by my subjective perspective. Again there is nothing fantastic about this. It just demonstrates the failure of building a coherant identity by the Pakistani state. It does not say and you cannot draw any conclusions about the naturality of Pakistan per se. About that later.

* I also would also like to add I don't give a flying frigg about Indian's Muslims. They are Indian's period.

 

[Imam Bukhari]

......If ethnicity were stronger than religion why many Muslims in subcontinent would have sacrificed their lives, properties and wealth to create Pakistan and just to get in there ? .........

The Great Deception- ALTAF BHAI

Where is the Honour, Dignity and Freedom that was Promised? ALTAF BHAI

......Whatever conflicts you mentioned above have nothing to with them considering ethnicity before Islam. It all has do with incompetent of central government who did not managed resources and conflicts well and somehow oppressed or discriminated some groups on ethnic grounds whether you call them Bengali, balochi or pashtuns.........

If what you say is true, then how is it that this "resource management" and "conflict management" incompetence of the Central Government does not seem to affect:

1) Pakistani Pashtuns accomodating migration of Afghan Pusthuns without any conflict
2) Muhajirs welcoming migration of even more Muhajirs (see above links) without any conflict
3) Pakistani Baloch accomodating migration of Afghan & Irani Baloch without any conflict

So why is it that this "resource management" and "conflict management" incompetence of the Government suddenly becomes an issue in the migratory demographic issues between Muhajir v/s Pathan, Sindhi v/s Muhajir, Punjabi v/s Baloch etcetera?

After all, Pakhtunkhwa is poorer and more backward than Karachi. Yet "lack of resources" or "management incompetence" do not seem to create much conflict when Afghan Pashtun migrate into Pakistani Pakhtunkhwa. However, if the same Pashtuns move to Karachi, suddenly "resources" and "conflict management" seem to become issues-- why? As for "conflict managment", why should there be any conflict at all? After all, whether Muhajir, Sindhi or Pashtun, we are all Muslim first, right?

Still further, the migrants from East Punjab, Haryana & Jammu who came to Pakistan in 1947 are not called "Muhajir" are they? They are totally assimilated now, are they not? So why are the Urdu-speakers still called "muhajir" after 65 years? Why have they not been assimilated like the Punjabi migrants? Are they not "Muslim enough" for the Ummah in Pakistan?

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Raja Bhai,.

Imam Bukhari, why your writing style makes me think that you are not Pakistani, but Indian Muslim? Might be a Hyderabadi. All that extensive usage of "Bhai" and "Bhaiyyas".

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Imam Bukhari, why your writing style makes me think that you are not Pakistani, but Indian Muslim? Might be a Hyderabadi. All that extensive usage of "Bhai" and "Bhaiyyas".

Not only that if you read a selection of his posts they all smack of 'Trojan Horse' chopping away Pakistan from inside wrapped up in our flag to the delight of the Indian's.

* I intend to counter and deconstruct his assertion. I will also assume he is a Indian.

 

[livingdead]

Don't try to bait me into an argument and try to get me banned.

Nope, it is from my own personal experience with them. I have met many Indian Muslims (Gujaratis, Hyderabadis, Biharis) etc and they try to act very nationalistic and how much they love India. When they are with their Indian Hindu friends, many times they overact to show their loyalties towards India, so no one doubts them about their "loyalties". It is evident that they are an insecure bunch of ppl. And in each n everything they like to compete with Pakistanis. They are really annoying.

On the other hand, I have much better experience with Indian Hindus, Christians etc.
(NON-PDF ones of course) lolz

I have been subjected to show of such love/loyalty, and at best i can describe it as cringeworthy.
I cant blame them though, major blame lies on majority community, most of us(those who believe in secularism and equality) should feel sad.

Not only that if you read a selection of his posts they all smack of 'Trojan Horse' chopping away pakistan from inside wrapped up in our flag to the dlight of the Indian's.

* I intend to counter and deconstruct his assertion. I will also assume he is a Indian.

I dont know about other Indians, but very few on pdf (myself included) can write a coherent prose of 50 lines, lay down some hypothesis, support it by some evidence and respond to criticism in a constructive manner.
Even if I did not agree with his assertion, I will like his post simply because they way he puts the ideas into writing.

This forum is overflowing with troll posts, with smart oneliners (not unexpected), so when something nice comes (or even half nice), we should all feel happy about it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

^^^

@ Hinduguy.

I never said I was 'unhappy' indeed I was attracted to his [ Imam Bukhari ] posts because they demonstrate a rare example of a fine education and even finer mind in these forums. That said of course I do not agree with him and will take delight in deconstructing his beautifully put togather arguments.

I was also struck by his deep knowledge of Pakistan even if that has been used in a negative manner [from my perspective] and entirely wrong assertions shoehorned to fit within his preconcieved notions or prejudices.

 

[Developereo]

I dont know about other Indians, but very few on pdf (myself included) can write a coherent prose of 50 lines, lay down some hypothesis, support it by some evidence and respond to criticism in a constructive manner.
Even if I did not agree with his assertion, I will like his post simply because they way he puts the ideas into writing.

This forum is overflowing with troll posts, with smart oneliners (not unexpected), so when something nice comes (or even half nice), we should all feel happy about it.

As Atanz and others have pointed out, the OP is the usual garden variety tripe about Pakistan's supposed identity crisis. It is a perennial favorite amongst Indians and some Pakistani intellectuals.

The attack is neither original, nor subtle.

What makes it less than engaging is the selective omission of facts that don't suit the hypothesis. As I mentioned, India's record on minorities is criticized by many others, including Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans and Chinese, yet the OP deliberately feigns ignorance of these facts because they don't fit in with its flawed thesis.

 

[illusion8]

If I were a Muslim in secular India this is how I would react to your statement pertaining equality - Let Azmi buy an apartment in Mumbai without any discrimination let schedule castes obtain equal rights and then make a remark on equality in a state based on a religion.. Anyway, lets not derail the topic.... Have your say on topic and not on PRINCIPLES of a state.

Celebrities are highly emotional - someone refuses a flat to her and she cries out - check her profile - and know how much respect she garners within India - If there was bias against her, would she have reached this level?

Azmi has appeared in over 120 Hindi films in both mainstream and independent cinema, Azmi is a social and women's rights activist, a Goodwill Ambassador of the United Nations Population Fund (UNPFA), and a member of the Rajya Sabha, the upper house of the Indian parliament. She went on to receive the National Film Award consecutively for three years from 1983 to 1985 for her roles in movies, Arth, Khandhar and Paar. Another film Godmother (1999) earned her another National Film Award, taking her tally to five.
Shabana Azmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This is her famous husband.
Javed Akhtar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is her famous son.
Farhan Akhtar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is her famous Daughter
Zoya Akhtar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All of the them are INDIAN Muslims.