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Do Pakistan Armed Forces Lack Dedicated Airborne/Paratrooper Division ???

litman said:
such type of missions were possible in 65 and 71 when radar coverage was limited but today if God forbid indo-pak war breaks out then to carry out para dropping behind enemy lines in significant number will be very difficult rather suicidal.with the latest radars, SAMs and fighters with BVR capability the plane carrying para troopers will be piece of cake for the enemy. limited para dropping ,however, may be carried out.
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Clearly you have negated HAHO and low level insertions?????

@cerberus please add the SFF and Archers to Indian list as also Garuds and MARCOs who are also PARA Qualified if you want
 
cerberus said:
But there are Different Battalions in SSG For Different Role which are Mainly Militaristic in Nature .Also there Lots of Load on SSG as SF alone as a Unit
  • To carry Out SOP on Foreign Soil
  • Special reconnaissance
  • Asymmetric warfare
  • ISTAR Ops & COIN
  • Domestic CT Ops inside Pakistan
In My opinion There Should Be Creation of Dedicated Unit or Group for Domestic CT Ops & Law Enforcement Like NSG or GSG 9 in Pakistan
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You have yourself answered the question. SSG is not just limited to Cherat but they have different dedicated units for ops U mentioned and many more. Moreover SSG was last to be called for COIN ops inside Pakistan plus with Shawal being cleared, SSG is now no more needed for long COIN ops.
Also Pak Army is enhancing the capabilities of local police and KPK has taken the lead in this regard as witnessed during last operation in Bacha Khan University plus main aim is to make the Commandos of Police in each province so potent that they alone can take on every emerging challenge as its police who are the first to respond to any eventuality here in Pakistan.
 
In order to have strong Para Troops division , one would need to have fleet of Transport planes
Which should be available (not transporting goods) in Order to allow troops ability to drop via planes

For Pakistan , I think the problem is lack of Transport platform

We can certainly run ops for training and small operations but unless we have 50 Transport planes we can't really consider this as an element (strong element for Pakistan forces)

  • We need 40-50 Transport planes (the 17-18 planes we have are for goods transport)
  • 100-150 Helicopters
To really say we have a "functional" Para Troop division high end
 
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shah1398 said:
You have yourself answered the question. SSG is not just limited to Cherat but they have different dedicated units for ops U mentioned and many more. Moreover SSG was last to be called for COIN ops inside Pakistan plus with Shawal being cleared, SSG is now no more needed for long COIN ops.
Also Pak Army is enhancing the capabilities of local police and KPK has taken the lead in this regard as witnessed during last operation in Bacha Khan University plus main aim is to make the Commandos of Police in each province so potent that they alone can take on every emerging challenge as its police who are the first to respond to any eventuality here in Pakistan.
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But One Should Not Fully Depend SSG which Is a Military Unit And It Should Not Be Called Until Any National Emergency
in Operation Inside States

Second Part Of your Answer is Quite Objective Special Operation Group Should Gen-rated Within Law Enforcement And Local Paramilitary Units

But Best Option is There Should Be Agency that Should be Dedicated To Dedicated CT Ops
 
cerberus said:
But One Should Not Fully Depend SSG which Is a Military Unit And It Should Not Be Called Until Any National Emergency
in Operation Inside States

Second Part Of your Answer is Quite Objective Special Operation Group Should Gen-rated Within Law Enforcement And Local Paramilitary Units

But Best Option is There Should Be Agency that Should be Dedicated To Dedicated CT Ops
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airborn divisions are only good when you've wiped out enemy air defence, and have achieved air superiority, in the context of indo-pak pakistan will never achieve this, its better for pakistan to play defender, and if an opportunity arises take a small chunk of territory. the pak army need more mechanised IFV divisions, and SAM belt akin to what the arabs had against the israelis, and advanced heavy artillery,

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:
In order to have strong Para Troops division , one would need to have fleet of Transport planes
Which should be available (not transporting goods) in Order to allow troops ability to drop via planes

For Pakistan , I think the problem is lack of Transport platform

We can certainly run ops for training and small operations but unless we have 50 Transport planes we can't really consider this as an element (strong element for Pakistan forces)

  • We need 40-50 Transport planes (the 17-18 planes we have are for goods transport)
  • 100-150 Helicopters
To really say we have a "functional" Para Troop division high end
Click to expand...
Its pointless having an airborn division, the enemy is getting the S-400 and already have a heavy SAM belt they'll have a field day against a para division/
 
thrilainmanila said:
airborn divisions are only good when you've wiped out enemy air defence, and have achieved air superiority, in the context of indo-pak pakistan will never achieve this, its better for pakistan to play defender, and if an opportunity arises take a small chunk of territory. the pak army need more mechanised IFV divisions, and SAM belt akin to what the arabs had against the israelis, and advanced heavy artillery,


Its pointless having an airborn division, the enemy is getting the S-400 and already have a heavy SAM belt they'll have a field day against a para division/
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Ground troops can infiltrate and knock out the radars for S-400 OR even S-10000

Every force has a purpose on battle field I think
 
AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:
Ground troops can infiltrate and knock out the radars for S-400 OR even S-10000

Every force has a purpose on battle field I think
Click to expand...
you think airborne troops will be sent beyond dehli to find the S-400, just say they manage to do it, your deep in a population of 1 billion with a standanding army of 4 million they'll be swarmed before they have a chance to do any real damage. its a waste of money.
 
cerberus said:
But One Should Not Fully Depend SSG which Is a Military Unit And It Should Not Be Called Until Any National Emergency
in Operation Inside States

Second Part Of your Answer is Quite Objective Special Operation Group Should Gen-rated Within Law Enforcement And Local Paramilitary Units

But Best Option is There Should Be Agency that Should be Dedicated To Dedicated CT Ops
Click to expand...

Actually each province has their own CTDs and it was NACTA which was envisaged to take lead role of CT Ops. But till the time NACTA aint fully functional, the CTDs are on their own and frankly speaking they are doing quite good job lately.
 
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Large scale paradrops are passe` and no longer feasible in a near peer confrontation. On the other hand, independent air assault brigades are need of the hour.

As for a Pakistani airborne division, resources required to undertake a mission that requires an airborne division is far beyond the scope and means of PAF. Unless someone decides to employ civilian aircrafts in a contested airspace the meager resources of PAF will spend their time supplying land forces where ground based logistics are coming short, possibly mountainous areas.

Last I checked, PA had LCB which can be used in slithering ops which should be more than enough and if anything PA needs a more robust rotary wing rather than the more expensive and also vulnerable fixed wing transport.

For the people who think Pakistani paratroopers will land in Delhi to destroy S-400 like systems, all I can say is good luck.:enjoy:
 
DESERT FIGHTER said:
Apart from SSG,SSGN,SSW,SOG,SSW,Marines... LCBs are like our 75th Rangers...


And several troops (overall) & specially PAF guys do para.

&


https://defence.pk/threads/pak-army-new-airborne-division.15924/
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LCB has a long way to become like 75th Ranagers ...both in terms of combat, training, equipments and formation ...

cerberus said:
Airborne forces are military units, usually light infantry, set up to be moved by aircraft and "dropped" into battle, typically by parachute. Thus, they can be placed behind enemy lines, and have the capability to deploy almost anywhere with little warning. The formations are limited only by the number and size of their aircraft, so given enough capacity a huge force can appear "out of nowhere" in minutes, an action referred to as a vertical envelopment.


SSG & SSW is a Primary SF of Pakistan that is Suited this Role But as its Concluded Airborne OP As a Secondary role Following the SSG course, trainees must go through the airborne training to get their commando wings Parachute Training School (PTS)


Many Armies in the World Have dedicated Airborne Divisions
Specially US ,PLA,France ,Russia

China


France

French Foreign Legion (La Légion Etrangère) :


French Navy (Marine Nationale):




    • Commandos Marine: Navy component of Special Operations Command (France):
      • Commando Hubert (also named Commando d'Action Sous-Marine Hubert, CASM, "underwater operations commando"): Submarine action (combat divers).
      • Commando Jaubert: Assault at sea, exfiltration, close quarters battle at sea.
      • Commando Trepel: Assault at sea, exfiltration.
      • Commando de Penfentenyo: Reconnaissance, Intelligence Operations (recon swimmers)
      • Commando de Montfort: Long range neutralisation (missile launchers, light mortars, heavy sniper rifles), fire support designation
      • Commando Kieffer: C3I, military dogs
French Air Force (Armee de L'Air):


National Gendarmerie (Gendarmerie Nationale):


Directorate-General for External Security: Division Action:




    • The Centre Parachutiste d'Entraînement Spécialisé (CPES, "Paratrooper Specialised Training Centre") in Cercottes for clandestine operations
    • The Centre Parachutiste d'Instruction Spécialisée (CPIS, "Paratrooper Specialised Instruction Centre") in Perpignan for special commandos.
    • The Centre Parachutiste d'Entraînement aux Opérations Maritimes (CPEOM, "Paratrooper Training Centre for Naval Operations") in Quelern, which instructs combat divers.
Russia


Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD)

Various Specnaz units

United States



Joint Service Units




    • Joint Communications Support Element (JCSE)
      • Headquarters Support Squadron (HSS)
      • Communications Support Detachment (CSD)
      • 1st Joint Communications Squadron (JCS)
      • 2nd Joint Communications Squadron (JCS)
      • 3rd Joint Communications Squadron (JCS)
      • 4th Joint Communications Squadron (JCS)
      • 224th Joint Communications Support Squadron (JCSS)
      • 290th Joint Communications Support Squadron (JCSS)
Parachute Regiment (India)

17 battalions (9 special forces, 5 airborne, 2 Territorial Army and 1 Rashtriya Rifles

The 8th Battalion became 16th Battalion, Mahar Regiment in 1976 before reconverting to the 12th Battalion, Mechanised Infantry Regiment. A sizable part of the battalion was retained in the airborne role for some time, forming the armoured element of the 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade and equipped with their BMP2 Infantry Combat Vehicles. But due to administrative and logistic reasons, it was discontinued and their role being taken over by the para battalions themselves, with a platoon strength of each battalion being trained and equipped for the mechanized role within the brigade.
Three of the Special Forces battalions were originally trained for use in certain environments; 1st Bn [strategic reserve], 9th Bn [mountain] and 10th Bn [desert] and the 21st Bn [jungle]. Currently, all Special Forces battalions are cross trained for all environments.




    • 1st Battalion (Special Forces) - ex 1st Battalion, 2nd Punjab Regiment Raised 1761, conversion to Special Forces 1978
    • 2nd Battalion (Special Forces) - ex 3rd Battalion, Maratha Light Infantry raised 1797, conversion to Special Forces 2000
    • 3rd Battalion (Special Forces) - ex 1st Battalion, Kumaon Regiment raised 1813, conversion to Special Forces 2002
    • 4th Battalion (Special Forces) raised 1961, conversion to Special Forces 2003.
    • 5th Battalion (Airborne) raised 1962
    • 6th Battalion (Airborne) raised 1963
    • 7th Battalion (Airborne) raised 1964
    • 9th Battalion (Special Forces) raised 1966 as 9th Parachute Commando Battalion.
    • 10th Battalion (Special Forces) raised in 1967 as 10th Parachute Commando battalion from 9 Para Cdo.
    • 11th Battalion (Special Forces) raised in 2011
    • 21st Battalion (Special Forces) - ex 21st Battalion, Maratha Light Infantry raised 1985, conversion to Special Forces 1996
    • 23rd Battalion ( Airborne )
    • 29th Battalion (Airborne)
    • 106th Infantry Battalion (Para) Territorial Army
    • 116th Infantry Battalion (Para) Territorial Army
    • 31st Battalion (Commando) - Rashtriya Rifles

    50th Parachute Brigade (India)
    The 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade comprises the following units:

    • 02 Special Forces Airborne
    • 01 Special Forces
    • 01 Parachute Field Regiment (Artillery) (9 & 17 Parachute Field Regiments in rotation)
    • 60 Parachute Field Hospital
    • 411 (Independent) Parachute Field Company (Bombay Sappers)
    • 622 Parachute Composite Company (ASC)
    • 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade OFP (Ordnance)
    • 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade Signal Company
    • 2 (Independent) Parachute Field Workshop Company (EME)
    • 252 (Para) Air Defence Battery
    • 50th (Independent) Parachute Brigade Provost Section.





Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paratrooper_forces
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You certainly do have a point ...I agree with you ...we must have a dedicated para reg ...sadly ...everything just above normal is to be done by SSG ....and it's different companies ....they are no doubt good ...but being dedicated to one role is something I always favor ....!
 
Sage said:
LCB has a long way to become like 75th Ranagers ...both in terms of combat, training, equipments and formation ...


You certainly do have a point ...I agree with you ...we must have a dedicated para reg ...sadly ...everything just above normal is to be done by SSG ....and it's different companies ....they are no doubt good ...but being dedicated to one role is something I always favor ....!
Click to expand...

It's a newborn .. It will need time to evolve .. But it uses the same concept ... Hence our answer to the 75th.

2013 (raised/training);

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14;

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16 ;
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From taking part in OPs in FATA to participating in international SF drills ... In less than 2-3 years... Right now they are being given priority...

cerberus said:
Do you think World Most Sophisticated Armies are Outdated to have these Division First you have to Learn Role of Air-borne Troops

And as for Effectiveness Air-born Paratroopers Help Pakistan in WOT

So Its is Still Most Fastest way to Deploy your Troops Behind Enemy Lines Specially for Strategic OPs


SSG & SSGN are Mostly Take Airborne Ops as Secondary Role as they are Primary SF in Every Role Including CT OP's inside Pakistan Territory


Which In My Understanding Should Be Given to Another Unit Like Many Forces has Dedicated SF's For CT OP's Like NSG or GSG 9 or other Dedicated CT Op's Group


Only PAF SSW are Dedicated Airborne Troops

Now you Posted Separate Airborne Division Do you have any Details of them & there Role
Click to expand...

SSG,SSGN,SSW,SOG,SOW,LBC are all HAHO & HALO qualified and it's not their "secondary" role.


As for CT ops .. No but they have been forced to do that job... Within the SSG .. It's the Zarrar Coy that's CT Specialist unit.

Apart from that provinces have raised their own special CTUs... Like ATS,CTD,Panthers,SSU etc... These units are equip to your NSG etc..
 
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an airborn assault has never been applied in modern warfare against semi advanced armies, the countries that posses them have massive standing armies like china,usa,india,russia, they have the extra resources to raise a large air brigade in terms of indo-pak context india is basically hedging its bets that will all the pressure the pak army will face on the border they'll send there heli born troops and drop them off deep behind enemy lines, what they dont realise is that all the paramilitary guys like the fc, rangers and reserves will all be there waiting for them, they'll be swarmed
@DESERT FIGHTER how effective are those scoped AK-56s the pak army use, they look all flashy but what does your brother say on how they work in the field? i heard the pak army wasn't happy with them which provoked them to go for a new caliber machine gun
 
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DESERT FIGHTER said:
Apart from that provinces have raised their own special CTUs... Like ATS,CTD,Panthers,SSU etc... These units are equip to your NSG etc..
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NSG Far More Trained And Better Equipped SAG Of NSG is Mostly Based on "Military Veterans "The Special Action Group (SAG) comprises 54%(4200+) of the National Security Guards. It is its offensive arm, with personnel drawn from the Indian Army. The 51 SAG is tasked with counter-terrorism operations, while the 52 SAG is trained and equipped for counter-hijack operations.

But Its a Civilian Agency Comes Under Control Of MHA,GOI



As For Law Enforcement Agencies Have there Own Elite Swat And SOG Units Within Raised From Their Ranks


DESERT FIGHTER said:
SSG,SSGN,SSW,SOG,SOW,LBC are all HAHO & HALO qualified and it's not their "secondary" role.
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That Doesn't Change Its A Military Unit SSG Should Only Be called During National Emergency Unless Civilian Govt Want It Too

Law Enforcement Agencies Should have Given Role of Countering Domestic CT OPs

thrilainmanila said:
what they dont realise is that all the paramilitary guys like the fc, rangers and reserves will all be there waiting for them, they'll be swarmed
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Paramilitary is Law Enforcement They Can Tackle CT Ops But Not An Professional Trained And Military Brigade

you Need Military unit to Counter Military Units

No offense Don't Go Off-topic
 
cerberus said:
NSG Far More Trained And Better Equipped SAG Of NSG is Mostly Based on "Military Veterans "The Special Action Group (SAG) comprises 54%(4200+) of the National Security Guards. It is its offensive arm, with personnel drawn from the Indian Army. The 51 SAG is tasked with counter-terrorism operations, while the 52 SAG is trained and equipped for counter-hijack operations.

But Its a Civilian Agency Comes Under Control Of MHA,GOI



As For Law Enforcement Agencies Have there Own Elite Swat And SOG Units Within Raised From Their Ranks



That Doesn't Change Its A Military Unit SSG Should Only Be called During National Emergency Unless Civilian Govt Want It Too

Law Enforcement Agencies Should have Given Role of Countering Domestic CT OPs


Paramilitary is Law Enforcement They Can Tackle CT Ops But Not An Professional Trained And Military Brigade

you Need Military unit to Counter Military Units

No offense Don't Go Off-topic
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no country has never dropped off massive volumes of troops in an advanced warfare setting behind enemy lines, most of the time the heliborne troops get scattered and there cordination is limited, when you have elements of scattered soldiers in enemy territory and you have masses of Paramiltary they'll be uprooted, how the hell do you expect a few hundred men to stand up to thousands of armed men. its not a video game or a hollywood movie. airborne troops are only for show,
 
thrilainmanila said:
you think airborne troops will be sent beyond dehli to find the S-400, just say they manage to do it, your deep in a population of 1 billion with a standanding army of 4 million they'll be swarmed before they have a chance to do any real damage. its a waste of money.
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Not airborne troops.

SSG or SSW. Read Post 10 of this thread.

thrilainmanila said:
no country has never dropped off massive volumes of troops in an advanced warfare setting behind enemy lines, most of the time the heliborne troops get scattered and there cordination is limited, when you have elements of scattered soldiers in enemy territory and you have masses of Paramiltary they'll be uprooted, how the hell do you expect a few hundred men to stand up to thousands of armed men. its not a video game or a hollywood movie. airborne troops are only for show,
Click to expand...

Heliborne or AirAssault troops are inserted for speedy capture of a location (bridge, road pass, command HQ, supply/fuel/ammo dump etc) usually but not limited to it.
They may be deployed to flank the enemy from sides or rear. They can deployed speedily to reinforce a location risking to be over run by the enemy. They can be deployed to harass and destroy a spotted enemy reinforcement and supply convoy near the border in war time.

Coming to your point of paramilitary forces.
During a hypothetical advance of PA forces say into kashmir, PA infantry brigades make it near a major city say, Srinagar. Now Heliborne (i will prefer Air Assault) forces can be used for following purposes.

1. Air Assault Forces get dropped at an opposite or 90 degrees azimuth from where the main assault of PA brigades (say Delta 20) may be planned. The Air assault force (say Team-Charlie 10) can engage the enemy at that different location to confuse the enemy about the direction of main assault of Delta 20 and then Charlie-10 can withdraw to friendly lines whenever withdrawal is planned.

2. Charlie 10 gets dropped as close to a heavily defended position inside Srinagar as possible, engaging regular and paramilitary forces till Delta 20 advances and links up with Charlie 10, ofcourse timing will be of essence.

3. Charlie 10 gets dropped off at a main road from which reinforcement of IA can be expected or is one the way and either delays the IA forces or eliminates them (if IA forces are small in number) till Delta 20 takes over Srinagar.

4. Charlie 10 is QRF and is supposed to be protecting exposed flanks of Delta 20 during a major assault.
 
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