Divided by a common language

[siegecrossbow]

They can't, it's all computer-based reconstruction, that they developed from rhyming poems in Ancient China.

Still interesting though.

Chinese poet/linguistics expert Guo Mo Ro apparently could speak "Jia gu weng"!!! I've always wondered what basis they had for linguistic reconstructions. Here is my theory though. According to my friend's father the "Mingnan" accent is pretty close to the "original" Chinese since refugees from Tang Dynasty who went to live in Southern China were relatively isolated from the rest of the nation. Maybe they used some of China's "ancient dialects" to do reconstructions?

Guess no one could challenge the experts unless someone builds a time machine.

 

[no_name]

I think classical chinese would probably sound closer to what people in southern china spoke, given that when the first emperor QinShiHuang standardised china the south is not yet in his firm grasp.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Chinese poet/linguistics expert Guo Mo Ro apparently could speak "Jia gu weng"!!! I've always wondered what basis they had for linguistic reconstructions. Here is my theory though. According to my friend's father the "Mingnan" accent is pretty close to the "original" Chinese since refugees from Tang Dynasty who went to live in Southern China were relatively isolated from the rest of the nation. Maybe they used some of China's "ancient dialects" to do reconstructions?

Guess no one could challenge the experts unless someone builds a time machine.

Good point.

Old Chinese is notoriously difficult to reconstruct... because Chinese pronunciation is separate from Chinese characters. The idea is to use rhymes to "guess" at the pronunciation of different characters... and to use "preserved" sounds like you described above.

Though I think it's quite interesting to look at how 見大王 went from "keens daads cwang" to "jian da wang", based on this particular reconstruction.

This character wang (&#29579 seems to have a similar pronunciation in these particular forms of Chinese, which is also sounds similar to huang (&#30343 and also to huang (&#40644. In Cantonese it becomes "wong".

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Here is the seal script character for "Dragon":

This character actually "looks" like a Dragon... and the "Traditional character" does as well: 龍.

The Simplified character lost this resemblance unfortunately, and became: 龙.

Which is one reason why I like the look of Traditional characters more. However, I think Simplified characters are easier to write, and it saves a lot of time as well.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I think classical chinese would probably sound closer to what people in southern china spoke, given that when the first emperor QinShiHuang standardised china the south is not yet in his firm grasp.

Well one of the problems with classical Chinese is we really don't know how far back we need to go. During the Warring States period each nation had its own language and after Qin Shi Huang united China only the language of Qin was legal. Although the Qin language served as a basis for modern written Chinese I am sure that the languages of other nations survived in the form of folk languages since the Qin Dynasty lasted a mere 15 years (large nations like Qi and Chu should have sufficiently well preserved languages).

Here is the seal script character for "Dragon":

This character actually "looks" like a Dragon... and the "Traditional character" does as well: 龍.

The Simplified character lost this resemblance unfortunately, and became: 龙.

Which is one reason why I like the look of Traditional characters more. However, I think Simplified characters are easier to write, and it saves a lot of time as well.

I agree that the simplified form is extremely illogical and less aesthetically appealing. However as you said it made reading and writing a lot easier. The CCP did this to help eliminate illiteracy amongst the peasantry and as far as I could tell, simplified characters did a pretty good job .

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I agree that the simplified form is extremely illogical and less aesthetically appealing. However as you said it made reading and writing a lot easier. The CCP did this to help eliminate illiteracy amongst the peasantry and as far as I could tell, simplified characters did a pretty good job .

I agree, Simplified characters did do a very good job. Literacy rates in particular increased dramatically after the simplification process.

Overall, I think Simplified characters are much better for "everyday" use.

However, I also think that people should learn Traditional characters too... for "cultural" and academic reasons, such as reading Ancient Chinese literature. That way we will get the best of both worlds.

 

[below_freezing]

academic? scientific and engineering technical writing is done in math terms, simplified chinese and in international arenas, english.

traditional characters should be reserved for people interested in the social sciences. i don't think it is fair to burden people interested in engineering and physical science with the task of learning 3 writing systems and 2 languages. some are struggling with 1.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

traditional characters should be reserved for people interested in the social sciences. i don't think it is fair to burden people interested in engineering and physical science with the task of learning 3 writing systems and 2 languages. some are struggling with 1.

Fair enough. It should be reserved for social sciences and history.

What do you think of dialect standardisation though?

For example, I think it's difficult for a Shanghai person to learn Shanghainese at home, Mandarin at school, and English if they want to go to University overseas. That is three systems they need to learn.

In Hong Kong as well, many people will need Cantonese and English, and Mandarin too. That is three systems as well.

How do you think we should cut down on the number languages that the average person needs to learn?

 

[siegecrossbow]

I agree, Simplified characters did do a very good job. Literacy rates in particular increased dramatically after the simplification process.

Overall, I think Simplified characters are much better for "everyday" use.

However, I also think that people should learn Traditional characters too... for "cultural" and academic reasons, such as reading Ancient Chinese literature. That way we will get the best of both worlds.

I absolutely agree. Back in my days (when I was in China at around 9 years old) traditional characters were taught in traditional calligraphy classes. Since I was absolutely terrible with a brush I never got into it and now I am regretting it, lol. I heard that less emphasis has been placed on calligraphy recently and I think it is a mistake. Calligraphy/Chinese classics are important classes in Japan and I'd think it'll be a shame if the Japanese are more adept than us at calligraphy in the next few decades. Well if things fail in the mainland we still have HongKong, Taiwan, and AuMen (I refuse to say Macau) to bail us out, sort of .

Reading ancient scripts (classical Chinese texts) give me a huge head ache since my Chinese skills aren't that great to begin with. Recently I ran across an article on a Chinese forum that basically said that "normal" languages from the Qing, and even Ming Dynasty, was actually pretty close to everyday language today. They even proved it with casual "zou zhe" (Imperial Edicts???) from the Qing Emperor Yongzhen and Ming Emperor Hongwu to back it up! I was surprised how modern the Emperors sounded! Zhu Yuan Zhang was around roughly the same time period as Geoffery Chaucer. I don't care how good you are at English but there is no friggin way you can decifer the Canterbury tales without a translation.

 

[CardSharp]

I agree, Simplified characters did do a very good job. Literacy rates in particular increased dramatically after the simplification process.

Overall, I think Simplified characters are much better for "everyday" use.

However, I also think that people should learn Traditional characters too... for "cultural" and academic reasons, such as reading Ancient Chinese literature. That way we will get the best of both worlds.

I remember as a kid, being able to read simplified, I picked up traditional on my own when I was forced to read Taiwanese books in American libraries. I can't imagine that other kids couldn't make the transition if they wanted to. Just throw a couple of traditional books into the reading curriculum.

 

[below_freezing]

Fair enough. It should be reserved for social sciences and history.

What do you think of dialect standardisation though?

For example, I think it's difficult for a Shanghai person to learn Shanghainese at home, Mandarin at school, and English if they want to go to University overseas. That is three systems they need to learn.

In Hong Kong as well, many people will need Cantonese and English, and Mandarin too. That is three systems as well.

How do you think we should cut down on the number languages that the average person needs to learn?

that's only 2 writing systems. hong kong should be slowly moving towards simplified. the best way is standardization. think about this logically. shakespeare's language is beautiful. does the US force people to learn shakespeare and write in classical english?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I remember as a kid, being able to read simplified, I picked up traditional on my own when I was forced to read Taiwanese books in American libraries. I can't imagine that other kids couldn't make the transition if they wanted to. Just a couple of traditional books into the reading curriculum.

You're right, it's not that difficult to make the transition.

I favour Traditional characters for the reason that they have a lot of cultural value and connection to Ancient China.

However at the end of the day, pragmatism wins out.

I would be happy to see Simplified characters used in Hong Kong, for the reason that it is faster to write, and it makes it easier to communicate with our mainland brothers.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Here is the article that I was referring to. Just look at how colloquial Ming Taizu sounds :

ÖìԪ谵ġ°°×»°¡±Ê¥Ö¼¡ª¡¶»ªÏÄÎÄ»¯¡·¡ª2005ÄêµÚ4ÆÚ¡ªÁúÔ´ÆÚ¿¯Íø

“说与户部官知道，如今天下太平了也，只是户口不明白哩。教中书省置天下户口的勘合文簿户帖，你每(&#20204户部家出榜去，教那有司官将他们所管的应有百姓，都教人官附名字，写着他家人口多少，写得真着，与那百姓一个户帖，上用半印勘合，都取勘来了。我这大军如今不出征了，都教去各州县里下着，绕地里去点户比勘合，比着的便是好百姓，比不着的，便拿来作军。比到其间，有司官吏隐瞒了的，将那有司官吏处斩。百姓每(&#20204自躲避了的，依律要了罪过，拿来作军。钦此”。

Compare that with this "English" :

The Prologue, Middle English - Canterbury Tales - Geoffrey Chaucer (1340?-1400)

Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
Tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the ram his halve cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open ye
(so priketh hem nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

that's only 2 writing systems. hong kong should be slowly moving towards simplified. the best way is standardization. think about this logically. shakespeare's language is beautiful. does the US force people to learn shakespeare and write in classical english?

I agree actually, I think standardisation is the way forward.

However I was talking about spoken dialects like Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese, etc. How would you standardise those?

If you try to make Mandarin the national dialect of Hong Kong, there will be a lot of cultural resistance.

Personally, I wouldn't mind (since it is all Chinese anyway) but a lot of people would have a problem with it.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Calligraphy/Chinese classics are important classes in Japan and I'd think it'll be a shame if the Japanese are more adept than us at calligraphy in the next few decades.

That would be embarrassing, lol!

I had a Japanese friend in high school actually, and I was shocked that he was able to read Traditional Chinese characters! The Japanese still have the system of Kanji (Han characters)... and apparently they need to memorize thousands of Kanji just to be able to read a newspaper properly.