Ditching Rafale

[jha]

Ive been advocating someone to step over and acquire the whole SaaB aerospace.

Sine when...? I am the one rooting for SAAB from day 1...

 

[gslv]

Ive been advocating someone to step over and acquire the whole SaaB aerospace.

Even if India acquire Saab I don't believe Sweden will allow full tot, only a govt to govt deal will allow it.

 

[Indo-guy]

bang on, appeasing Russia by ordering more MKIs might mean getting FGFA on a faster track but the whole point would mean 2 uncomfortable things:
1. After Mirage and Jaguars get retired in say 10-15 years of time, apart from LCA variants, everything else would be Russian. Some commentators have actually raised concerns of having all critical fighter planes from one country as an uncomfortable situation even though Russia has always stood by India.
2. There would be nothing in medium weight category meaning either nimble light weight fighters or costly heavy weight ones. Under these conditions, operating costs might soar also snatching away a crucial flexibility that IAF right now has.
That is why some type of Medium weight MRCA is required even if in smaller numbers.
I'm sure Parriker would've been aware of all this and therefore all these tough talks could actually be a way of arm wrestling the initiative from Dassault which looks like is dictating the terms till now.

Our main concern should be whether we have adequate number of capable aircrafts ...
whether they come from single country like Russia who have always stood by India or it comes from variety of sources should not be main point around which this whole issue revolve ...

Sukhoi are very capable aircraft ...well one can't have best of everything ...
we will have to compromise somewhere ....

Taking few say 40- 50 rafale and filling the numbers with Su 34 , tejas mk1 , mk2 ...and pushing for early conclusion of FGFA makes the sense ...

the current rafale deal ...is going to be too costly ....

we can get better deal from Russia when rubble is crashing like nothing ...

imagine other deals that we can strike with Russia in the process ...

FGFA , few more nuclear submarines ... help to realize indigenous engine etc ....

It will be win win situation for India and Russia ....

I do not know who invented this myth that one can't have all front line aircrafts from one country ....

IAF detests Russian products and they always want western products ....

It is high time that IAF realize the defense acquisitions and purchases have to be done within broader context of national economy , diplomacy , strategic objectives and future plans to make Indian independent of arms exports ...


No other country can part away with critical high end technology like Russia does and Russia have been ....

Our cryogenic engine , our nuclear reactor for arihant or the air craft carrier like Vikramaditya ..all are testimonial of that fact .

 

[bloo]

Well the french were being greedy, so now they get nothing.

 

[Indo-guy]

bang on, appeasing Russia by ordering more MKIs might mean getting FGFA on a faster track but the whole point would mean 2 uncomfortable things:
1. After Mirage and Jaguars get retired in say 10-15 years of time, apart from LCA variants, everything else would be Russian. Some commentators have actually raised concerns of having all critical fighter planes from one country as an uncomfortable situation even though Russia has always stood by India.
2. There would be nothing in medium weight category meaning either nimble light weight fighters or costly heavy weight ones. Under these conditions, operating costs might soar also snatching away a crucial flexibility that IAF right now has.
That is why some type of Medium weight MRCA is required even if in smaller numbers.
I'm sure Parriker would've been aware of all this and therefore all these tough talks could actually be a way of arm wrestling the initiative from Dassault which looks like is dictating the terms till now.

Dassault's intention to hoodwink GOI and HAL by partnering with novice like Reliance itself speaks volumes about it's integrity ...It had objected to participation of HAL saying HAL has no experience in manufacturing fighter jets ..what experience does Reliance have ???

Buying Rafale in small numbers and filling the gap with fleet of Sukhoi and tejas seems best option ...

There is no reason to buy Rafale at such an inflated price that too such an extravagant numbers when all dassault means is to milk Indians till last drop ...

 

[anant_s]

we can get better deal from Russia when rubble is crashing like nothing ...

yes there might be something in there with both Ruble and Oil prices crashing. However India would have to tread a fine line of balancing relations between USA and EU on one side and Russia on the other.
Besides Joint Ventures are the best way to go forward.
But again with MiG 35 out of question, i don't know how experts see Sukhoi as a replacement for a medium weight Multi role fighter.
Lets see if President Obama brings to us some options in two weeks from now.

 

[$@rJen]

Your concern are less than appropritae than it sounds because of a simple reason that MKI is build in India and we are no more rely on Russia for any part except few. Today there is a news in IDRW that first MKI was overhauled in HAL and it was first of its kind any where.

LCA MK2 and MK3 as well as AMCA will be available by then. We shall be missing a fully only Havy fighter in this catagory. FAGFA and MKI shall be the joint programme but light and medium aircraft shall be our own.

the most important part of the plane is the Engine... i think it comes from Russia ( correct me if i'm wrong)

 

[Tshering22]

After 10 years of being in various stages of consideration and evaluation, someone tells us that. Wonderful

Well, backing out of tender requirements one adhered to is simply killing the deal.

I now think that AESA armed MKIs would be a far better deal. It will be a bit of overkill but they are capable of doing ground missions as well as air to air missions. Plus, we don't need additional new logistics.

 

[Indo-guy]

yes there might be something in there with both Ruble and Oil prices crashing. However India would have to tread a fine line of balancing relations between USA and EU on one side and Russia on the other.
Besides Joint Ventures are the best way to go forward.
But again with MiG 35 out of question, i don't know how experts see Sukhoi as a replacement for a medium weight Multi role fighter.
Lets see if President Obama brings to us some options in two weeks from now.

I would not trust US ...
the F35 has its own problems ..the cost will be equally stupendous ...even if we are ok to buy in small numbers ...

president Obama will bring nothing except the list of demands ...to clear nuclear liability law hurdles , to save American drugs from axe of price control authority etc ...
US president is the biggest spokesperson of US business fraternity ...

We do not have to balance anyone against anything ...

why should we worry about what US feels if US does not care how we feel ?

they are flooding pak army with aid even as it continues to support terrorism around .

we should see what is in the best interest of India ....

If India has already made up her mind to go with Russia for FGFA ...why should we shy away from purchasing 4.5 gen aircraft to fill the shortfall meanwhile ...especially when we already have production line in India ...

adding all kinds of complexities to the maintenance of fleet of aircrafts by choosing Dassault ....for few plus points it will bring to the table at such an extravagant prize ...is something we need to re think about .

 

[vsdave2302]

the most important part of the plane is the Engine... i think it comes from Russia ( correct me if i'm wrong)

No It is also build in India. Matel comes from russia.

Even if India acquire Saab I don't believe Sweden will allow full tot, only a govt to govt deal will allow it.

Sweeden TOT has a little meaning since they have hardly any indigeneous part. Engine is American (License produced Volvo) so as most of the avionics and many LRUS.

 

[jha]

Dassault probably thought they had deal in pocket as their relationship with 10-Janpath was strong. This may very well could be another Bofors in making.

Thankfully Parrikar disclosed the difference in costs by saying we can buy 2 Su-30MKI for cost of one rafale. Dassault will have to work much harder now to convince Modi.

 

[$@rJen]

No It is also build in India. Matel comes from russia.

only assembled in india... most of the parts of the plane comes from Russia, so we still need them... not to mention th FGFA

 

[Skillrex]

The problem IAF faces is it needs fighter in Medium Category.. and i guess SU's are falls under heavy if i am not wrong.. and Su's are more of a Air Superiority Fighter..
I was reading an article on facebook regard why India shouldn't scrap MMRCA it says and i quote ''Although it can(Su-30/35) also undertake ground missions, it will be a very over performing asset for a ground missions. It will be very effective to shoot invading aircraft out of the sky. But for ground attack missions, its cost of operating per flight hour will be expensive compared to that of the Rafale''
what i am trying to say is what option India has.. cant go for Saab as it will offer very little development for Tejas and others... US wont offer full ToT for f-35..
We should not forget one more very important aspect of this deal.. that is ToT of critical technologies for our other fighter programs.. and if cancelled it may be left in the lurch for years or may be decades. This will adversely affect the induction timelines and capabilities of our future weapon platforms.
Going for Russia isnt very wise decision either not that we cant.. only bcoz that will make entire fleet of IAF will be heavily dependent upon russia for spares.. and i guess we all know Russia doesnt have a good track records when it comes to supply of spares..

what ever it is.. we should have trust and faith on our Defence Mininster.. he is an IIT'ian for ffs.. he will come up with something..

 

[Guynextdoor2]

What BS, the two planes are not even in the same class.

 

[nik22]

Thankfully Parrikar disclosed the difference in costs by saying we can buy 2 Su-30MKI for cost of one rafale. i.

Did Parrikar really say that?