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Ditching Rafale

It makes sense, economically, politically and otherwise to go for the Su-30 instead.

Dassault pushed their luck and raised their prices for too long.

Well sir, if India does actually ditches Rafale, next few months could see a hectic political activity and possible intervention from French government. If the deal goes off, would be a massive massive setback not just for India but more so for Dassault.
 
By Bharat Karnad

Like an able pilot with his wits about him in an out-of-control warplane, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar may be preparing to ditch Rafale touted as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) answer, which the Indian Air Force has set its heart on procuring at any cost, and going for the more economical and sensible Su-30 option instead.

It has been repeatedly emphasised by this analyst that the IAF misconceived the MMRCA requirement, disregarded the uncommonly high costs involved in procuring the chosen Rafale and France’s past record of unmet transfer of technology promises, and the Su-30s/MiG-29M2s as sustainable alternative. I also warned that the massive expenditure on the Rafale would starve the indigenous programmes (Tejas and the advanced medium combat aircraft — AMCA) of funds, and stifle the Indian aviation industry trying to get back on its feet.

The reasons for the nose-diving deal are many, and they are serious. The unwillingness of Dassault Avions, the Rafale manufacturer, to guarantee the performance of this aircraft produced under licence at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd despite the original RFP (Request for Proposal) requiring bidders to transfer technology, including production wherewithal, procedures and protocols, to this public sector unit for the aircraft’s local assembly, has been reported. There’s, however, an untold back-story revealing France’s intended duplicity.

Perceiving India as the perennial sucker, Dassault chose Reliance Aerospace Technologies Pvt Ltd (RATPL) as partner in the hope that the fabled Ambani reach and influence in Delhi would help it get around the HAL production obligation. Problems were not anticipated as evidenced by RATPL approaching the Andhra Pradesh government in 2013 for land around Hyderabad to set up a factory. But because RATPL has zero experience in producing anything remotely related to aviation, Dassault saw it as an opportunity to “double dip”, meaning arrange it so India would pay it twice for the same aircraft! This was to be managed thus: Dassault would set up a production line under RATPL aegis importing every last screw and production jig and collect the money for the 108 Rafales it puts together here at the cost-plus-profit price HAL would charge IAF. In other words, Dassault would export the Rafale assembly kits and wherewithal virtually to itself and pocket the proceeds while paying a premium to RATPL.

But this double dipping ruse in the works merely whetted France’s appetite for more. Capitalising on the IAF brass’ penchant for newer French aircraft and the Indian government’s tendency eventually to cave into the military’s demands, Dassault proposed an enlarged Rafale deal with the cost revised upwards from the $30 billion level to a $45-$50 billion contract. For such enhanced sums, Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the slightly better “F-3R” version, promised a mid-life upgrade involving retrofitment of the Thales RBE2 AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, and suggested India’s future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the “F-4R” and “F-5R” configurations (or whatever designations they are given) now on the drawing board featuring crystal blade for jet turbines, “fly-by-light” technology, etc. Such contract extension suits the IAF fine because it plays on Vayu Bhavan’s antipathy for Russian hardware (expressed in terms of “diversity of suppliers”) as well as indigenous aircraft, and undermines both the multi-billion dollar project jointly to develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft, Su-50 PAK/FA with Russia and the Indian AMCA with its design finalised.

But for Parrikar’s welcome show of common sense this French plan would have rolled out nicely. Inconveniently for Dassault, he publicly disclosed that the far deadlier and more versatile Su-30 MKI costs `358 crores (roughly $60 million) each compared to the `700 crore price tag for the Rafale, meaning two Su-30s could be secured for the price of a single Rafale. Implicit is the reasonable conclusion that it made more sense to buy a much larger fleet of 4.5-plus generation Su-30s than to get stuck with a 4.5-minus generation Rafale sporting 5.5 generation aircraft prices. The cost comparison remains skewed even when the “super Sukhoi-30”, costing `70 crores, is considered, when the added advantage of the plunging the Russian ruble kicks in, allowing India to extract far more bang for the buck from Moscow.

Looked at another way, the original allocation of $12 billion for the MMRCA could fetch IAF at current prices a whole new, augmented, and more capable fighter/bomber armada and raise the force strength to 50 frontline combat squadrons. This because the $12 billion can buy 20 Tejas Mk-Is (in addition to the 40 already ordered), 150 Tejas Mk-IIs, some 35 super Sukhoi-30s, and around 50 MiG-29Ks/M2s (with the M-2s nearly equal of the MiG-35 the Strategic Forces Command wanted for delivering nuclear bombs, but were denied). In short, a composite additional fleet of 255 aircraft can be acquired for the initial price of 126 Rafales, with “incalculable” savings in streamlined logistics, training, and maintenance but absent the cost-hikes, delays, and aggravation of setting up a new production line (as HAL already produces Su-30 MKIs).

Besides, France’s extortionist attitude is offputting. In response to the IAF’s request not too long ago for an immediate transfer of two Rafale squadrons from the French Air Force as a quick-fix, Paris agreed but demanded these would have to be paid for at the same rate as new aircraft and that these planes could carry only French sourced weapons. Worse still, France’s reputation for fulfilling technology transfer provisions too is suspect as past experience reveals.

The IAF trusts Paris not to cutoff the supply of spares if India follows a foreign policy not to France’s or even America’s liking. Except, heeding Washington’s directive, France recently stopped the delivery of two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships Russia has paid for. What’s the guarantee Paris won’t sever supply links and leave HAL stranded mid-production and IAF frontline squadrons grounded in case India resumes nuclear testing, say?

The larger question is: How come France’s record of defaulting on technology-related parts of contracts combined with the unaffordability of French aircraft generally using any metric, were not factored by IAF and Ministry of Defence when shortlisting Rafale?

Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research

Ditching Rafale -The New Indian Express

The article makes sense to dump this whole Rafale Deal.. mind you i was a rafale fanboy.. :D
but dassault trying to outsmart india GOI by choosing RAPTL who has total ZERO knowledge in this area is very cunning thing to do..
I say now to scrap this whole thing.. and put money in better use..
 
This is not called Ditching ... This is Just a matter of serving Own Interest... And nothing wrong in there.
 
Well sir, if India does actually ditches Rafale, next few months could see a hectic political activity and possible intervention from French government. If the deal goes off, would be a massive massive setback not just for India but more so for Dassault.

If Dassault is actually found to be violating the clauses in the RFP, as is now being suggested by every news report, the blame will fall exclusively on Dassault, and not on India.

India will be well within it's rights to break off negotiations.

And as far as the MMRCA is concerned, expect a major offer from the US soon. The Russians aren't the only one trying to cash in on the anger building up in the upper echelons of MoD.
 
If Dassault is actually found to be violating the clauses in the RFP, as is now being suggested by every news report, the blame will fall exclusively on Dassault, and not on India.

India will be well within it's rights to break off negotiations.

I'm not questioning our rights, if Dassault chooses not to comply, it will be their decision to make, we have our options. But the point is that for past decade, IAF has pinned hopes on outcome of this contest to beef up its dwindling fleet numbers. One feels for them.

And as far as the MMRCA is concerned, expect a major offer from the US soon. The Russians aren't the only one trying to cash in on the anger building up in the upper echelons of MoD.

I do hope government is working on some plan B. I'm not sure what US can offer us (especially considering that they offered very little in terms of ToT, somethings that forms bedrock of MMRCA deal) or is IAF would want to go for MiG 35. Somehow EFT looks the next best thing. Someone mentioned in previous reply that there wasn't much of cost difference between L-1 and L-2 bidders, so probably govt might want to re-visit EFT offer again.
 
I'm not questioning our rights, if Dassault chooses not to comply, it will be their decision to make, we have our options. But the point is that for past decade, IAF has pinned hopes on outcome of this contest to beef up its dwindling fleet numbers. One feels for them.



I do hope government is working on some plan B. I'm not sure what US can offer us (especially considering that they offered very little in terms of ToT, somethings that forms bedrock of MMRCA deal) or is IAF would want to go for MiG 35. Somehow EFT looks the next best thing. Someone mentioned in previous reply that there wasn't much of cost difference between L-1 and L-2 bidders, so probably govt might want to re-visit EFT offer again.
I don't think so,going to next vendor means another round of negotiations, best bet would be go for mix of 100 super sukhoi ' s mki and 100 su 35and work on lca mk2 mk3 and AMCA, if this deal fails.
 
By Bharat Karnad

Like an able pilot with his wits about him in an out-of-control warplane, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar may be preparing to ditch Rafale touted as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) answer, which the Indian Air Force has set its heart on procuring at any cost, and going for the more economical and sensible Su-30 option instead.

It has been repeatedly emphasised by this analyst that the IAF misconceived the MMRCA requirement, disregarded the uncommonly high costs involved in procuring the chosen Rafale and France’s past record of unmet transfer of technology promises, and the Su-30s/MiG-29M2s as sustainable alternative. I also warned that the massive expenditure on the Rafale would starve the indigenous programmes (Tejas and the advanced medium combat aircraft — AMCA) of funds, and stifle the Indian aviation industry trying to get back on its feet.

The reasons for the nose-diving deal are many, and they are serious. The unwillingness of Dassault Avions, the Rafale manufacturer, to guarantee the performance of this aircraft produced under licence at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd despite the original RFP (Request for Proposal) requiring bidders to transfer technology, including production wherewithal, procedures and protocols, to this public sector unit for the aircraft’s local assembly, has been reported. There’s, however, an untold back-story revealing France’s intended duplicity.

Perceiving India as the perennial sucker, Dassault chose Reliance Aerospace Technologies Pvt Ltd (RATPL) as partner in the hope that the fabled Ambani reach and influence in Delhi would help it get around the HAL production obligation. Problems were not anticipated as evidenced by RATPL approaching the Andhra Pradesh government in 2013 for land around Hyderabad to set up a factory. But because RATPL has zero experience in producing anything remotely related to aviation, Dassault saw it as an opportunity to “double dip”, meaning arrange it so India would pay it twice for the same aircraft! This was to be managed thus: Dassault would set up a production line under RATPL aegis importing every last screw and production jig and collect the money for the 108 Rafales it puts together here at the cost-plus-profit price HAL would charge IAF. In other words, Dassault would export the Rafale assembly kits and wherewithal virtually to itself and pocket the proceeds while paying a premium to RATPL.

But this double dipping ruse in the works merely whetted France’s appetite for more. Capitalising on the IAF brass’ penchant for newer French aircraft and the Indian government’s tendency eventually to cave into the military’s demands, Dassault proposed an enlarged Rafale deal with the cost revised upwards from the $30 billion level to a $45-$50 billion contract. For such enhanced sums, Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the slightly better “F-3R” version, promised a mid-life upgrade involving retrofitment of the Thales RBE2 AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, and suggested India’s future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the “F-4R” and “F-5R” configurations (or whatever designations they are given) now on the drawing board featuring crystal blade for jet turbines, “fly-by-light” technology, etc. Such contract extension suits the IAF fine because it plays on Vayu Bhavan’s antipathy for Russian hardware (expressed in terms of “diversity of suppliers”) as well as indigenous aircraft, and undermines both the multi-billion dollar project jointly to develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft, Su-50 PAK/FA with Russia and the Indian AMCA with its design finalised.

But for Parrikar’s welcome show of common sense this French plan would have rolled out nicely. Inconveniently for Dassault, he publicly disclosed that the far deadlier and more versatile Su-30 MKI costs `358 crores (roughly $60 million) each compared to the `700 crore price tag for the Rafale, meaning two Su-30s could be secured for the price of a single Rafale. Implicit is the reasonable conclusion that it made more sense to buy a much larger fleet of 4.5-plus generation Su-30s than to get stuck with a 4.5-minus generation Rafale sporting 5.5 generation aircraft prices. The cost comparison remains skewed even when the “super Sukhoi-30”, costing `70 crores, is considered, when the added advantage of the plunging the Russian ruble kicks in, allowing India to extract far more bang for the buck from Moscow.

Looked at another way, the original allocation of $12 billion for the MMRCA could fetch IAF at current prices a whole new, augmented, and more capable fighter/bomber armada and raise the force strength to 50 frontline combat squadrons. This because the $12 billion can buy 20 Tejas Mk-Is (in addition to the 40 already ordered), 150 Tejas Mk-IIs, some 35 super Sukhoi-30s, and around 50 MiG-29Ks/M2s (with the M-2s nearly equal of the MiG-35 the Strategic Forces Command wanted for delivering nuclear bombs, but were denied). In short, a composite additional fleet of 255 aircraft can be acquired for the initial price of 126 Rafales, with “incalculable” savings in streamlined logistics, training, and maintenance but absent the cost-hikes, delays, and aggravation of setting up a new production line (as HAL already produces Su-30 MKIs).

Besides, France’s extortionist attitude is offputting. In response to the IAF’s request not too long ago for an immediate transfer of two Rafale squadrons from the French Air Force as a quick-fix, Paris agreed but demanded these would have to be paid for at the same rate as new aircraft and that these planes could carry only French sourced weapons. Worse still, France’s reputation for fulfilling technology transfer provisions too is suspect as past experience reveals.

The IAF trusts Paris not to cutoff the supply of spares if India follows a foreign policy not to France’s or even America’s liking. Except, heeding Washington’s directive, France recently stopped the delivery of two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships Russia has paid for. What’s the guarantee Paris won’t sever supply links and leave HAL stranded mid-production and IAF frontline squadrons grounded in case India resumes nuclear testing, say?

The larger question is: How come France’s record of defaulting on technology-related parts of contracts combined with the unaffordability of French aircraft generally using any metric, were not factored by IAF and Ministry of Defence when shortlisting Rafale?

Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research

Ditching Rafale -The New Indian Express

Hell no
 
I can't understand how price has got more than doubled within 3 years ? They have defeated the very purpose of the negotiations. Govt should scrap the deal at the earliest and look for other alternatives.
 
If government is too keen to buy any MMRCA, buy that without technology transfer in small batches as 40 and repeated order. EF has offered that at lowe cost. Ask Dausault whether they want to match the prise? if yes go for that else go for EF. They have offered partnership in EF also.
 
I don't think so,going to next vendor means another round of negotiations, best bet would be go for mix of 100 super sukhoi ' s mki and 100 su 35and work on lca mk2 mk3 and AMCA, if this deal fails.

Well assume hypothetically government decides to talk for EFT, they will have to go by the same conditions that are in original tender (ToT, offset clause obligations, pricing issues etc). They cannot do away with them and all this will take time, not just for India but also for supplier.
I guess @vsdave2302 suggestion to go for a smaller batch (say 40-50 pieces) is the best course of action now (if all fails) which could be in form of 30% outright off the shelf purchase and kit assembling remaining in India. This will take atleast 5-6 years and by the time we'll have a better picture of LCA Mk 2 project along with FGFA project. If required, we can always take a call on that by incorporation of Reservation rights in contract.
 
Well that makes sense..... But Ditching the Rafale is not in the best interests of IAF too.. its a very capable fighter adds new punch to IAF, so far pariikar is doing a good job putting the ball in French's court. Just make them accept original RFP term and sign the deal.... or defiantly go for more Super Sukhois and Su-34, we can make a big fleet( IAF will be left with not having a potential fleet of Medium fighters)


+ Russians would go smooth on FGFA programs. we could get the 5th Gen on time or early.
 
Well that makes sense..... But Ditching the Rafale is not in the best interests of IAF too.. its a very capable fighter adds new punch to IAF, so far pariikar is doing a good job putting the ball in French's court. Just make them accept original RFP term and sign the deal.... or defiantly go for more Super Sukhois and Su-34, we can make a big fleet( IAF will be left with not having a potential fleet of Medium fighters)


+ Russians would go smooth on FGFA programs. we could get the 5th Gen on time or early.

bang on, appeasing Russia by ordering more MKIs might mean getting FGFA on a faster track but the whole point would mean 2 uncomfortable things:
1. After Mirage and Jaguars get retired in say 10-15 years of time, apart from LCA variants, everything else would be Russian. Some commentators have actually raised concerns of having all critical fighter planes from one country as an uncomfortable situation even though Russia has always stood by India.
2. There would be nothing in medium weight category meaning either nimble light weight fighters or costly heavy weight ones. Under these conditions, operating costs might soar also snatching away a crucial flexibility that IAF right now has.
That is why some type of Medium weight MRCA is required even if in smaller numbers.
I'm sure Parriker would've been aware of all this and therefore all these tough talks could actually be a way of arm wrestling the initiative from Dassault which looks like is dictating the terms till now.
 
bang on, appeasing Russia by ordering more MKIs might mean getting FGFA on a faster track but the whole point would mean 2 uncomfortable things:
1. After Mirage and Jaguars get retired in say 10-15 years of time, apart from LCA variants, everything else would be Russian. Some commentators have actually raised concerns of having all critical fighter planes from one country as an uncomfortable situation even though Russia has always stood by India.
2. There would be nothing in medium weight category meaning either nimble light weight fighters or costly heavy weight ones. Under these conditions, operating costs might soar also snatching away a crucial flexibility that IAF right now has.
That is why some type of Medium weight MRCA is required even if in smaller numbers.
I'm sure Parriker would've been aware of all this and therefore all these tough talks could actually be a way of arm wrestling the initiative from Dassault which looks like is dictating the terms till now.

1.You're right, that's a bg problem, and i'm very aware this deal is not going to be scrapped. Parrikar is just giving the french the taste of their own medicine.... Grippen is not an option our MKIs are far better than them. can't buy Typhoon..

2. ya, that's what i too mentioned IAF will not have any medium fighters.... upgrading current mig-29 can do the job but their fleet is very small.. more lca is also not a very bright idea.. these will serve only as a interceptors not air superiority or a strike fighter although our fleets could be expanded
 
bang on, appeasing Russia by ordering more MKIs might mean getting FGFA on a faster track but the whole point would mean 2 uncomfortable things:
1. After Mirage and Jaguars get retired in say 10-15 years of time, apart from LCA variants, everything else would be Russian. Some commentators have actually raised concerns of having all critical fighter planes from one country as an uncomfortable situation even though Russia has always stood by India.
2. There would be nothing in medium weight category meaning either nimble light weight fighters or costly heavy weight ones. Under these conditions, operating costs might soar also snatching away a crucial flexibility that IAF right now has.
That is why some type of Medium weight MRCA is required even if in smaller numbers.
I'm sure Parriker would've been aware of all this and therefore all these tough talks could actually be a way of arm wrestling the initiative from Dassault which looks like is dictating the terms till now.


Your concern are less than appropritae than it sounds because of a simple reason that MKI is build in India and we are no more rely on Russia for any part except few. Today there is a news in IDRW that first MKI was overhauled in HAL and it was first of its kind any where.

LCA MK2 and MK3 as well as AMCA will be available by then. We shall be missing a fully only Havy fighter in this catagory. FAGFA and MKI shall be the joint programme but light and medium aircraft shall be our own.
 
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