Diplomat: Pakistan holding up some US visas

[croptikal]

Man if I understand USA which I feel, I do they will do something to make you repent for this,

Yea, its like a don in Godfather. They just cannot allow someone to get away after insulting them in public. They will surely make those responsible repent. And I mean those who formulated this approach within Pakistan of protesting US.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Correct on the Special operations soldiers. However becuase of the nature of their contract (that is if the report attributed to the CIA is correct) XE employees would also be staying on Pakistani bases as well. That is they used to since the contract would be no more. And if there are so called compounds in private residential areas (which I would like to see pictures of if possible). most likely they are the private contractors hired by Pakistan and the U.S. embassy (none XE). And their is no way they would be in country without the approval of the Pakistani Government which gives them the right to be there. If that doesn't meet the approval of the Pakistani people. then as any other democratic country vote people out of office. and install a Government that will reverse policy.

Also if the Pakistani people don't want the U.S. aid money. then do the same install a government that will refuse it. along with all military aid. The U.S. tax payer will thank you. get your arms from China. But don't count on China to just give you those arms as aid becuase they have become quite adept at capitalism. they are mainly a cash only supplier. This last part may seem arrogant in attitude. But I am simply repeating what I see others on this board wishing for. The U.S. has helped the Pakistani people a lot since it's founding. Rejecting and turning against it now serves only the interests of Pakistan's enemies.

I think that would be the best solution, we should refuse American aid money and also get out of this War on Terror. Pakistan has been the biggest casualty of this WOT, not only has our economy suffered but countless precious lives have been lost be it civilians or our soldiers in uniform. Pakistan has lost more money by entering this WOT than the money it has recieved from the US, actually Pakistan has only recieved a fraction of the amount that Pakistan's economy has suffered from these constant suicide bombings.
I can proudly say Pakistan is the only country that has actually done something against these terrorists by launching operations against them. Unlike NATO Pakistan has actually confronted these terrorists head on, after 8 years of occuption almost 60% of Afghanistan is still not governed by either the Afghan Government or the NATO forces. US has surely helped Pakistan through crises but we have helped the US more than the Americans have helped us, the Americans never gave us money for free.

 

[PAFAce]

BTW, the taxpayers in US should really hold the US accountable. Why is Obama giving billions of dollars to Pakistan, instead of Afghanistan?

"giving billions of dollars to Pakistan"? You think this is charity we're getting? You think the US is doing us a massive favor? What we get from the US is a small portion of what we are currently spending on the operations against Taliban, Al-Qaeda and associates in our West, something that was not required pre-2001. And in any case, Pakistan's economic turmoil began far before the global recession, primarily due to the toxic economic and political conditions created by America's war in Afghanistan.

One of the smartest things Obama can do is make sure he has the Pakistani leadership in his pockets, and that will require him to spend the tax-payer's dollars. Otherwise, anybody who truly represents the people's feelings in Pakistan would be really bad for the US, because, like someone already stated, anti-US sentiments are at all-time highs in Pakistan. The general public has not benefitted much from US aid at all when compared with what they have had to lose over the past 8+ years. American tax-payers would do much better to challenge their country's foreign policy and unnecessary power projection that led to the entire mess in the first place.

 

[Thomas]

Frequently those that get most aid from US, tend to be anti-american. Pakistan today is rabidly anti-american. The people on the street believe that US is responsible for all the mess in their country. Partly, they are correct. The reason for hatred is that US tends to prop and dump the policies and regimes according to its needs and hardly cares for the emotions and sentiments of the affected people.

BTW, the taxpayers in US should really hold the US accountable. Why is Obama giving billions of dollars to Pakistan, instead of Afghanistan?


NOTE: I was referring to the successive Govts of US in this post whenever I used the term US.

the U.S. didn't create the Taliban. The U.S. didn't give them safe harbor in the tribal regions. Or allow the Madrasah's to become theological breeding grounds for them. It didn't help install the Taliban in Afghanistan who in turn gave safe harbor to Bin Laden. Who in turn attacked the U.S..

The reason Bush gave the ultimatum to Pakistan right after 9/11 is because the U.S. already knew that Pakistan was helping the Taliban in Afghanistan. Who in turn were refusing to give up Bin Laden. The U.S. new it would have to help the northern alliance and take the Taliban out if it had any hope of getting Bin Laden. Hence the threat your either with us or against us.

Pakistan can still choose again in regards to that question. They can be partners with the U.S. and work for a solution. or they can decide in the name of nationalist pride they want to stand alone. and continue to view the U.S. as the enemy.

 

[ajpirzada]

Who in turn were refusing to give up Bin Laden. The U.S. new it would have to help the northern alliance and take the Taliban out if it had any hope of getting Bin Laden.

o really?? werent they willin to try him in some third (neutral country)? but u guys dont listen much and now are stuck in a country which will soon accommodate another empire in its graveyard.

 

[TruthAloneTriumphs]

After reading all the posts so far in this thread the following 3 proverbs/moral stories come to my mind:
1. Never bite off more than you can chew
2. A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was so cold the bird froze and fell to the ground into a large field. While he was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on him. As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung, he began to realize how warm he was. The dung was actually thawing him out! He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy. A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate. Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung, and promptly dug him out and ate him.

Moral of the story:
1. Not everyone who shits on you is your enemy
2. Not everyone who gets you out of **** is your friend
3. And when you’re in deep ****, it’s best to keep your mouth shut!

 

[StingRoy]

"giving billions of dollars to Pakistan"? You think this is charity we're getting? You think the US is doing us a massive favor? What we get from the US is a small portion of what we are currently spending on the operations against Taliban, Al-Qaeda and associates in our West, something that was not required pre-2001. And in any case, Pakistan's economic turmoil began far before the global recession, primarily due to the toxic economic and political conditions created by America's war in Afghanistan.

I agree that the situation could have been different had the US and NATO not committed to the war on terror. But who knows how today would have shaped up had Taliban been roaming freely in Afghanistan... and who has unchallenged borders to Afghanistan... yes you are right... Pakistan... The way events shaped up till 2001 was a beginning of challenging times not just for the people of Aghanistan, but also towards forming a view about the Muslims in the global arena. Atleast with the war on terror, Pakistan has stood up against those critics to prove it is a sovereign nation and will step up against religious extremism to protect its own definition of a proud nation.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well, their dinner in Pakistan was never free and in particular in the past years, it has got more expensive with more tantrums from Pakistani side. The americans might just get annoyed and stop eating and.............paying. Wouldnt that hurt Pakistan?

We were under sanction for over a decade by the US, we survived, didn't we. So what if they again do it, let them do it. It will hurt them more, then hurting us. Our nation, including armed forces are already now cautious and weary of US, except for a few political stooges, so it would be a good thing for us if they ban whatever this wish to give, US is not the only way out for us, once this way is closed, we will be able to find our own way out.

Indians have a field day & this news.

 

[croptikal]

We were under sanction for over a decade by the US, we survived, didn't we. So what if they again do it, let them do it. It will hurt them more, then hurting us. Our nation, including armed forces are already now cautious and weary of US, except for a few political stooges,

If that is the case then have your armed forces rejected or appealed the Govt to reject the US aid?

so it would be a good thing for us if they ban whatever this wish to give, US is not the only way out for us, once this way is closed, we will be able to find our own way out.

Sir, can you please elaborate on what are the ways in which Pakistan can come out of its present economic crisis without US help infact active US hostility.

 

[Thomas]

o really?? werent they willin to try him in some third (neutral country)? but u guys dont listen much and now are stuck in a country which will soon accommodate another empire in its graveyard.

No need to transfer him to a neutral 3rd party. we knew he was guilty. the negotiations started over his attacks prior to 9/11. During which there were about 20 meetings. After 9/11 after it was clear he orchestrated the attacks the Taliban still refused to give him up to the U.S..

If Pakistan lost almost 3,000 of it people and a sizable piece of Karachi. I doubt it would be in any mood to negotiate the perpetrators to a neutral 3rd party. In fact I suspect Pakistani citizens would be screaming for blood. And the ISI and Pakistan military would be ready to strike. Especially if it was Indian extremists involved.

 

[Thomas]

"giving billions of dollars to Pakistan"? You think this is charity we're getting? You think the US is doing us a massive favor? What we get from the US is a small portion of what we are currently spending on the operations against Taliban, Al-Qaeda and associates in our West, something that was not required pre-2001. And in any case, Pakistan's economic turmoil began far before the global recession, primarily due to the toxic economic and political conditions created by America's war in Afghanistan.

One of the smartest things Obama can do is make sure he has the Pakistani leadership in his pockets, and that will require him to spend the tax-payer's dollars. Otherwise, anybody who truly represents the people's feelings in Pakistan would be really bad for the US, because, like someone already stated, anti-US sentiments are at all-time highs in Pakistan. The general public has not benefitted much from US aid at all when compared with what they have had to lose over the past 8+ years. American tax-payers would do much better to challenge their country's foreign policy and unnecessary power projection that led to the entire mess in the first place.

It's easy to lay all blame on the U.S. for Pakistan's troubles yet take no responsibility for helping to create the Taliban. You should have reigned in the extremist Madrasa's long ago. But you didn't becuase many Pakistani's support their ideology. That's why so many believe there are good Taliban.

 

[DavyJones]

@thomas - reason why Taliban was not reined in is so that India can't influence Afghanistan.
Northern Alliance were friends of India and Russia.

That's why the distinction between good Taliban and Bad Taliban. Good Taliban are the ones who can help keep India out of Afghanistan by insisting no kafir sets foot in Muslim lands

Also - training camps for LeT, JeM etc. were established in Afghanistan as well as Pak Kashmir. Pakistan decided to fuel the Kashmir conflict using these Islamic warriors. The world was paying no attention. Slowly these groups got out of hand.

IC 814 hijacking was a dress rehearsal for 9/11. Omar Sheikh and the current JeM chief were released after the hijacking. Still the world pays no attention to the problem - It's only India that was suffering. Pakistan watches on gleefully!

9/11 - World changes. Suddenly Pak can't just sit and watch. India gets support for it's line.

Mumbai attacks - UShas learnt it's leason - copycat attacks will be launched in the West - FBI studies the attacks calls for Pak to catch the culprits. Something that was missing after IC814 hijack

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No need to transfer him to a neutral 3rd party. we knew he was guilty. the negotiations started over his attacks prior to 9/11. During which there were about 20 meetings. After 9/11 after it was clear he orchestrated the attacks the Taliban still refused to give him up to the U.S..

If Pakistan lost almost 3,000 of it people and a sizable piece of Karachi. I doubt it would be in any mood to negotiate the perpetrators to a neutral 3rd party. In fact I suspect Pakistani citizens would be screaming for blood. And the ISI and Pakistan military would be ready to strike. Especially if it was Indian extremists involved.

You 'knew he was guilty' is not enough. The side you are making demands of needs to be satisfied as well. OBL did not claim responsibility (AFAIK) for 911 until after the US invasion. The US in fact chose not to arrest him from Somalia before he moved to Afghanistan.

The Taliban considered themselves a legitimate government in Afghanistan, and as such they wanted the US to follow a proper process. They were willing to try OBL in Afghanistan and were willing to do so in a mutually acceptable third country. The US should have explored those options and openings. That it did not do so reflects poorly on the US decision makers, points to a rush to war, and was responsible for the tens of thousands of lives lost and the tens of billions in damages suffered by Pakistan and Afghanistan since.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It's easy to lay all blame on the U.S. for Pakistan's troubles yet take no responsibility for helping to create the Taliban. You should have reigned in the extremist Madrasa's long ago. But you didn't becuase many Pakistani's support their ideology. That's why so many believe there are good Taliban.

The Taliban were not reigned in because the Afghanistan they took over was a huge mess.

There was a reason they were welcomed in by most Afghans - they provided stability and a reprieve from the crime, violence and lawlessness that had characterized Afghanistan post Soviet Withdrawal.

And related to the underlined portion of your post, this is your last warning for derogatory comments against Pakistanis.

Just because you are unable to understand a complex issue does not give you license to denigrate an entire country.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@thomas - reason why Taliban was not reined in is so that India can't influence Afghanistan.
Northern Alliance were friends of India and Russia.

That's why the distinction between good Taliban and Bad Taliban. Good Taliban are the ones who can help keep India out of Afghanistan by insisting no kafir sets foot in Muslim lands

Also - training camps for LeT, JeM etc. were established in Afghanistan as well as Pak Kashmir. Pakistan decided to fuel the Kashmir conflict using these Islamic warriors. The world was paying no attention. Slowly these groups got out of hand.

IC 814 hijacking was a dress rehearsal for 9/11. Omar Sheikh and the current JeM chief were released after the hijacking. Still the world pays no attention to the problem - It's only India that was suffering. Pakistan watches on gleefully!

9/11 - World changes. Suddenly Pak can't just sit and watch. India gets support for it's line.

Mumbai attacks - UShas learnt it's leason - copycat attacks will be launched in the West - FBI studies the attacks calls for Pak to catch the culprits. Something that was missing after IC814 hijack

That is an Indian view that tries to make the world revolve around them and paint Pakistan as obsessed with them.

Both Ahmed Rashid and Steve Coll talk about the rise of the Taliban in their excellent books. The Pakistani ambition behind supporting the Taliban arose from a need to stabilize Afghanistan which was wracked by civil war after the Soviets withdrew. Stability in Afghanistan was not just important because Pakistan was awash with millions of Afghan refugees and crime from a lawless Afghanistan, but also because Pakistan wanted to tap it as a transit route for the CAR's energy resources.

The faction Pakistan was supporting prior to the Taliban, Hekmetyar, proved to be utterly incapable, and the Taliban movement was gathering steam pretty quickly in some parts of Afghanistan, and gathering local support. Pakistan chose to extend support to the Taliban at that point, we did not create them.

The motivations behind supporting the Taliban were primarily based on the need for stabilizing Afghanistan and tapping it as a strategic route, and no as Indians like to argue, for strategic depth and denial to India.

The IC 814 hijacking occurred in India, not in Afghanistan. Nor was it the first hijacking in the world, so I fail to see how you can connect that particular hijacking to 911. I don't remember the IC814 being flown into a building.

Just more inane attempts by Indians to paint themselves and as more important than they are by trying to tie everything that happened to them to 911 and in the process malign Pakistan.