Did Pakistani fire caused IAF Jaguar losses

[Assault Rifle]

As according to @Windjammer smartass reply bad weather apparently happens only on Indian side, I am pretty sure that this PAF Mirage was shot down by IndAF in 2005:

Pakistan Air Force crashed in eastern Punjab province today, killing the pilot, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) said. "Pakistan Air Force announces with deep regret the crash of a Mirage Aircraft near Pai Khel (Mianwali)," a PAF statement said here.
Mianwali is situated some 230 kilometers southwest of Islamabad. The aircraft was on an exercise operational mission, the PAF said. PAF officer Air Commodore Tahir Ameen Butt confirmed the death of pilot Wing Commander Rizwanullah.
The plane crashed due to bad weather and heavy rains in the area, he said. No loss of life or property has been reported on ground, the PAF statement said.

http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/98300/pakistan-air-force-jet-crashes-pilot-killed

Anyways you have no way of knowing whether the pilots of other two Jaguars saw anything or not unless you talked to them.So stop spreading B.S.

Last but not the least in the entire thread windspammer and co. have failed to produce a shred of evidence showing that the Jags were shot down.

Lol.Looks like windspammer knows nothing about air crash physics either.

The fact that pilots didn't eject in fact prices there was no shot down as then they would have attempted ejection unlike in mid air collision due to bad weather which left the pilots no time to eject as the crash happened during a low level flight over mountains.

Also you claimed that the Jags must have glided about 50kms from the LoC after shot at to Gund where they crashed which would mean they had ample time to eject.
You just got busted with your own logic.

 

[Assault Rifle]

As there is zero evidence that the jets crossed LoC it is safe to conclude that the there was no shotdown.

In fact if the pilots managed to glide 50kms inside which would take atleast several minutes then they would have definitely attempted ejection.

In fact the lack of ejection proves the fact that the crash was sudden and left pilots no time to react.

 

[Param]

Pakistanis made such hue and cry when they shot down a Chinese UAV near LOC,calling media to speak about India's transgression and you say that you shout down two fighter jets and just kept quiet.Fir nasamhaz aadmi ki duniya main kami nahi hi.

 

[Windjammer]

As there is zero evidence that the jets crossed LoC it is safe to conclude that the there was no shotdown.

In fact if the pilots managed to glide 50kms inside which would take atleast several minutes then they would have definitely attempted ejection.

In fact the lack of ejection proves the fact that the crash was sudden and left pilots no time to react.

As i said there are several examples when the IAF aircraft hit over Pakistan, flew back to India and nosedived just when landing....and since you are going over same lines, let me ask you, the AN-32 was hit over Pakistan, it even lost one engine yet still made it back to it's base, which wasn't exactly a stone throw away, why didn't those abroad try to parachute out....and say had it crashed close to it's base or something, what would have been your excuse then. !!!

 

[Assault Rifle]

^ Seriously, is your IQ less than 20 or what?Looks like you are hitting twisted in your Salwar kameez

Why on earth would Jaguar pilots not eject even after getting several dozen kms into Indian territory?Their only intention of getting into Indian territory would be to prevent ejecting over Pakistani controlled areas.

It would make no sense for them to travel so much deep inside with a damaged craft.

That said An-32 is a rugged transport plane and btw they do not carry parachutes on flights without paratrooper forces.

Also you are yet to present any evidence backing your claims that the Jaguars got shot down.

 

[Windjammer]

^ Seriously, is your IQ less than 20 or what?Looks like you are hitting twisted in your Salwar kameez

Why on earth would Jaguar pilots not eject even after getting several dozen kms into Indian territory?Their only intention of getting into Indian territory would be to prevent ejecting over Pakistani controlled areas.

It would make no sense for them to travel so much deep inside with a damaged craft.

That said An-32 is a rugged transport plane and btw they do not carry parachutes on flights without paratrooper forces.

Also you are yet to present any evidence backing your claims that the Jaguars got shot down.

Now that you have thrown your dummy out of your pram, you must have soiled your pampers as well.
If there's something called a brain cell lodged in your upper crust do try and activate it and ask yourself, do pilots press the ejection button at the first sign of emergency or do they try and salvage the aircraft, and even when there's no hostile fire, does the ejection always works , An-32 maybe a rugged aircraft, don't forget that's what went missing lately... in many transport aircraft, the crew support a parachute ,
As for proof, you characters are still in denial about one of your drone getting shot down even when it revealed pictures from inside some Indian military set up.....in any case, your MOD surely knows the score.... as do we,

 

[SQ8]

Ironically the other two in formation didn't pick up or see anything.....but i guess it's one way of avoiding Rona Dhona.'

Probably did not due to bad weather (they referred to turbulence). What is a little suspicious if the story is true is why no one bothered to check in with the two after they went down?
As a flight lead , I would want to know what happened to my wingmen if they are not in formation and I have lost contact with them. If this was a training exersize and knowing that I wilfully called for RTB due to bad weather; I would like to keep tabs on my wingmen because that is my responsibility.

However, from the report published in the Indian sources it seems like after declaring problems due to turbulence the aircraft went RTB. If there was a collision and the two pilots involved had no time to react, there would still be plenty of time for the leader to do a formation check during the flight back to base.

From that , there are two possibilities

1. The leader committed gross negligence and failed to ensure the safety of his formation on their return; for which I am sure the IAF took him to task.
2. A dangerous training mission was authorized with radio silence in bad weather during a time of general peace- again , gross negligence which was apparently addressed.

 

[Windjammer]

Probably did not due to bad weather (they referred to turbulence). What is a little suspicious if the story is true is why no one bothered to check in with the two after they went down?
As a flight lead , I would want to know what happened to my wingmen if they are not in formation and I have lost contact with them. If this was a training exersize and knowing that I wilfully called for RTB due to bad weather; I would like to keep tabs on my wingmen because that is my responsibility.

However, from the report published in the Indian sources it seems like after declaring problems due to turbulence the aircraft went RTB. If there was a collision and the two pilots involved had no time to react, there would still be plenty of time for the leader to do a formation check during the flight back to base.

From that , there are two possibilities

1. The leader committed gross negligence and failed to ensure the safety of his formation on their return; for which I am sure the IAF took him to task.
2. A dangerous training mission was authorized with radio silence in bad weather during a time of general peace- again , gross negligence which was apparently addressed.

Invitation to media and some VIPs by IAF base Commander, to witness the Jaguars all weather capability was very much part of the whole episode.
Subsequent reporting in media had several discrepancies on the event.....at the same time Pakistani media reporting the violation and fired upon is too much of a coincidence.... wouldn't you agree.

 

[SQ8]

Invitation to media and some VIPs by IAF base Commander, to witness the Jaguars all weather capability was very much part of the whole episode.
Subsequent reporting in media had several discrepancies on the event.....at the same time Pakistani media reporting the violation and fired upon is too much of a coincidence.... wouldn't you agree.

It is possible that due to bad weather they made a navigation error ( 50km deviations are possible if you dont have GPS and are trying to navigate VFR at 450-500 knots). Still, it sounds far fetched and was likely just gross negligence. Remember, this is the IAF that had been mauled both by massive equipment issues and many of its top aviators leaving for greener private aviation grounds during their airline boom.

 

[Delnavaz B]

Probably did not due to bad weather (they referred to turbulence). What is a little suspicious if the story is true is why no one bothered to check in with the two after they went down?
As a flight lead , I would want to know what happened to my wingmen if they are not in formation and I have lost contact with them. If this was a training exersize and knowing that I wilfully called for RTB due to bad weather; I would like to keep tabs on my wingmen because that is my responsibility.

However, from the report published in the Indian sources it seems like after declaring problems due to turbulence the aircraft went RTB. If there was a collision and the two pilots involved had no time to react, there would still be plenty of time for the leader to do a formation check during the flight back to base.

From that , there are two possibilities

1. The leader committed gross negligence and failed to ensure the safety of his formation on their return; for which I am sure the IAF took him to task.
2. A dangerous training mission was authorized with radio silence in bad weather during a time of general peace- again , gross negligence which was apparently addressed.

Can i ask you something?How you know all this ? I am 100% sure you served or serving in PAF you must have Professional title.

It is possible that due to bad weather they made a navigation error ( 50km deviations are possible if you dont have GPS and are trying to navigate VFR at 450-500 knots). Still, it sounds far fetched and was likely just gross negligence. Remember, this is the IAF that had been mauled both by massive equipment issues and many of its top aviators leaving for greener private aviation grounds during their airline boom.

Please don;t say that @Joe Shearer would be lurking near may come and prove all your posts wornf with his own version of Arabian Nights.

 

[SQ8]

Can i ask you something?How you know all this ? I am 100% sure you served or serving in PAF you must have Professional title.


Please don;t say that @Joe Shearer would be lurking near may come and prove all your posts wornf with his own version of Arabian Nights.

Nothing to do with serving. I do know quite a few people within the military due to my previous profession and via other contacts. However, I would not be posting stuff unless I am absolutely sure its true- and not classified.

@Joe Shearer is a very respected and dear friend , his policy with less informed users is a little sarcastic but given the sort of members we encounter here from both Pakistan and India; it gets frustrating.

 

[Assault Rifle]

Looks like windspammer does not even have a upper crust to support brain cells.

Looks like you need to do some reading before spewing crap.

None of IAF An-32s carry parachutes at any time other that when it carry's troops/equipment for air drop.This ain't WW2 with bail out chutes.
Any pilot or personnel in An-32 squadrons can confirm this to you.

Anyways ISPR made a huge hue and cry after claiming to shootdown a Chinese made DJI Phantom 3 Remote Controlled Quadcopter which primarily used by civilians, do you think they would have kept quite if they shotsown 2 IAF Jaguars.

Also I searched the archives of DAWN, Nation abd Daily Times from 1/04/2004-10/04/2004, there are no reports in them claiming that Pakistan shot down IAF aircrafts.

Now your own fellow national and Senior moderator has called your brainfart theory as far fetched.

 

[Delnavaz B]

Nothing to do with serving. I do know quite a few people within the military due to my previous profession and via other contacts. However, I would not be posting stuff unless I am absolutely sure its true- and not classified.

@Joe Shearer is a very respected and dear friend , his policy with less informed users is a little sarcastic but given the sort of members we encounter here from both Pakistan and India; it gets frustrating.

And what about manners and comparing a new female member with a Cow and Chicken thats what your dear friend did.

 

[SQ8]

And what about manners and comparing a new female member with a Cow and Chicken thats what your dear friend did.

You could report it and I would discuss it with him.

 

[Windjammer]

Looks like windspammer does not even have a upper crust to support brain cells.

Looks like you need to do some reading before spewing crap.

None of IAF An-32s carry parachutes at any time other that when it carry's troops/equipment for air drop.This ain't WW2 with bail out chutes.
Any pilot or personnel in An-32 squadrons can confirm this to you.

Anyways ISPR made a huge hue and cry after claiming to shootdown a Chinese made DJI Phantom 3 Remote Controlled Quadcopter which primarily used by civilians, do you think they would have kept quite if they shotsown 2 IAF Jaguars.

Also I searched the archives of DAWN, Nation abd Daily Times from 1/04/2004-10/04/2004, there are no reports in them claiming that Pakistan shot down IAF aircrafts.

Now your own fellow national and Senior moderator has called your brainfart theory as far fetched.

As i sai

Both bad weather and collision reports are correct
While bad weather was the primary cause the enquiry commission found that the crash occured as all 4 aircraft flying very close to each other their may have also been a mid air collision.

Anyways the crash happened near Gunf ie 30-50km from LoC.

Pakistan did not possess any SAM in 2004 with that kind of a range.

Anyways it( Sn: K-2736) was repaired and returned after few weeks.[/QUOTE]

Epic Fail.
Jaguars Crashed due to bad weather.The enquiry found out that as both aircraft were flying close to each other and visibility was low both crashed into a hill while practicing low level flight.
The enquiry commission found fault with the Squadron commander for sanctioning lo altitude exercises despite poor weather.

Also when did I change my statement The chain of events is: Bad weather....>turbulence....>either collision or loss of control.

BTW in the court of enquiry report it is mentioned that a deformity on the wings of the aircraft suggested that they may have bumped into each other as the pilots were trying to gain control after turbulence.

Talk about dumb ***ault Rifle and so called brain farts....the damn thread is stinking with your crap.
First decide yourself what do you want to believe before blabbering nonsense.....and if you have any shame left, show me where i specifically mentioned AN-32 deploys parachutes or mentioned Dawn....and yea, I'm sure you have instant access to Dawn's 13 year old editions. ...