Did KSA ever invest in Chinese FC31 stealthy fighter during King's visit to China

[C130]

No, it's not the FC-31 problem. This plane or another, it does not matter.

You always think arrogantly that you would dominate the world since the end of the Second World War. It's wrong.

You will no longer be the only world power. You are in a phase of decline that is irreversible.Your reign will have last less than 70 years.

China and other civilizations - Ours - have existed for thousands of years.




This program is a real financial catastrophe, an endless chasm for your country.

He was to replace both the F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 to make substantial savings.

The industrialists of the Military-industrial complex plucked up the US taxpayer for an aircraft underperforming and unable to perform all the missions assigned to it.

...

I will admit the F-35 is a fiscal catastrophe, but it's performance ins't. we were sold that the F-35 would cost $30 million dollars back in the early 2000's

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...-most-probably-thanks-to-the-supporting-f-22/


if a single F-35 can kill 4 or 5 Su-30 and FC-31 that more than makes up for it's cost, and those countries are losing valuable pilots.

I'm not a real fan of the F-35 since I think war between two major powers is slim to none. you don't need a $100+ million dollar jet to perform CAS against rats with no air force and limited AA.


right now COIN aircraft like the OV-10 is more valuable than 5th aircraft. some goes for a jet like the F-111 shame it's retired. I'd take 100 FB-111 over 30 F-35

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

KSA is not looking for buying a plane. KSA wants capacity and capability. Willing to pay for it!

The KSA strategy is towards industrialisation, moving away from oil based economy.

Since the Saudis spend generously on their defence...by localising production they will kill two birds in one stone:

1) Generating jobs, expanding industrial base i.e. feeding the SA GDP growth

2) Bringing the defence expenditure under control without compromising national security.

If one looks at their programs they are moving in methodic manner. Any KSA involvement with any fighter aircraft program will see real ToT and local Saudi production.

The GCC market is Huge... so, Saudis might be looking at other things beside getting a plane or technology.

Given the close relationship between China-Pak and Pak-KSA... the potential is real and quite huge.

If KSA can manage to half of its defence equipment imports... can you imagine the amount of money available to do things locally and build strategic network around KSA for long term.

Arabs can be very polite and generous hosts...but as desert people they always keep their true thinking to themselves.

KSA is one very important country. So whichever way the strategic calculus moves, it will have broader impact. Hence, SA is cautious by nature.

Hopefully, Sino-Pak-Saudi Axis matures into a broader industrial and security mechamism. Win-Win-Win.

 

[Beast]

KSA is not looking for buying a plane. KSA wants capacity and capability. Willing to pay for it!

The KSA strategy is towards industrialisation, moving away from oil based economy.

Since the Saudis spend generously on their defence...by localising production they will kill two birds in one stone:

1) Generating jobs, expanding industrial base i.e. feeding the SA GDP growth

2) Bringing the defence expenditure under control without compromising national security.

If one looks at their programs they are moving in methodic manner. Any KSA involvement with any fighter aircraft program will see real ToT and local Saudi production.

The GCC market is Huge... so, Saudis might be looking at other things beside getting a plane or technology.

Given the close relationship between China-Pak and Pak-KSA... the potential is real and quite huge.

If KSA can manage to half of its defence equipment imports... can you imagine the amount of money available to do things locally and build strategic network around KSA for long term.

Arabs can be very polite and generous hosts...but as desert people they always keep their true thinking to themselves.

KSA is one very important country. So whichever way the strategic calculus moves, it will have broader impact. Hence, SA is cautious by nature.

Hopefully, Sino-Pak-Saudi Axis matures into a broader industrial and security mechamism. Win-Win-Win.

Localization is not as easy as you think. It takes massive infrastructure investment , follow by needing a big pool of talent by another round of massive investment with a huge population to support with many decades of hard work before you can see the fruit.

There is a reason why many countries stay in the league of buying from others rather than localization.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

Localization is not as easy as you think. It takes massive infrastructure investment , follow by needing a big pool of talent by another round of massive investment with a huge population to support with many decades of hard work before you can see the fruit.

...

That is true ! But we have already started for quite a while :

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/did-...ngs-visit-to-china.492460/page-2#post-9432302


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/made-in-ksa.475488/page-6#post-9432354

https://twitter.com/x/status/858759717161758720

...

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Localization is not as easy as you think. It takes massive infrastructure investment , follow by needing a big pool of talent by another round of massive investment with a huge population to support with many decades of hard work before you can see the fruit.

There is a reason why many countries stay in the league of buying from others rather than localization.

Dear Beast,

From your perspective you make sense. However, the point that was made here was of strategic cooperation. Wherein China can play a vital role.

Just look at Pak... JF Thunder gets a lot of press. Yet there is a galaxy of Sino-Pak programs/projects which don't get equal attention. China and Pak have helped each other in many a field since the start of diplomatic relations.

CPEC is one giant example of how China is helping Pak with rapid development and industrialisation. Pak policy is local production and China has been helping in this.

GCC countries have invested billions in the education of their young population. And they do have a growing industrial base. The drive in GCC is localisation. How else will they keep their young and Western educated population employed?

Also see the market for defence system is not limited to GCC alone. The Arab world is very large. KSA and UAE would not only provide weapon systems to these countries but also enhance their influence. That is the name of the Game.

We must, in our discourse, remain courteous. Good thing.

However, you are entitled to your opinions.

I would very much like to see close cooperation between Sino-Pak-GCC countries. Good for Peace and Trade. Win-Win-Win.

BTW KSA is not going to ditch any of their partners in the West. They only want to make new friends. As I said Arabs are different.

Please, also see that this growing relationship is evolving into financial sector as well. Just look where China established Yuan clearing house. Down the road commodity trading in Yuan is not far off. The growing relationship is multidimensional.

China will do its part in industrialisation in the Arab world.

All of must support this. By highlighting the strengths of our friends we give them face. Good thing!


Regards,

SPF

PS: I am NOT Chinese!


@wanglaokan @cnleio @Shotgunner51 @samsara @grey boy 2 friends you can add your input to expand upon the multidimensional relationship that is taking shape rather fast. Thanks!

 

[帅的一匹]

Dear Beast,

From your perspective you make sense. However, the point that was made here was of strategic cooperation. Wherein China can play a vital role.

Just look at Pak... JF Thunder gets a lot of press. Yet there is a galaxy of Sino-Pak programs/projects which don't get equal attention. China and Pak have helped each other in many a field since the start of diplomatic relations.

CPEC is one giant example of how China is helping Pak with rapid development and industrialisation. Pak policy is local production and China has been helping in this.

GCC countries have invested billions in the education of their young population. And they do have a growing industrial base. The drive in GCC is localisation. How else will they keep their young and Western educated population employed?

Also see the market for defence system is not limited to GCC alone. The Arab world is very large. KSA and UAE would not only provide weapon systems to these countries but also enhance their influence. That is the name of the Game.

We must, in our discourse, remain courteous. Good thing.

However, you are entitled to your opinions.

I would very much like to see close cooperation between Sino-Pak-GCC countries. Good for Peace and Trade. Win-Win-Win.

BTW KSA is not going to ditch any of their partners in the West. They only want to make new friends. As I said Arabs are different.

Please, also see that this growing relationship is evolving into financial sector as well. Just look where China established Yuan clearing house. Down the road commodity trading in Yuan is not far off. The growing relationship is multidimensional.

China will do its part in industrialisation in the Arab world.

All of must support this. By highlighting the strengths of our friends we give them face. Good thing!


Regards,

SPF

PS: I am NOT Chinese!


@wanglaokan @cnleio @Shotgunner51 @samsara @grey boy 2 friends you can add your input to expand upon the multidimensional relationship that is taking shape rather fast. Thanks!

Of course, Saudi is ideal partner to work with.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

Of course, Saudi is ideal partner to work with.

The story repeats itself again, again and again... Enjoy !

Zheng He

 

[Shotgunner51]

@wanglaokan @cnleio @Shotgunner51 @samsara @grey boy 2 friends you can add your input to expand upon the multidimensional relationship that is taking shape rather fast. Thanks!

Thanks for tagging. I don't have any source saying KSA is already involved in FC-31, but in my own opinion, it's not impossible given the very close relationship between the two countries:

• When Chengdu is doing well with J-10, J-20, Xian is progressing with Y-20, naturally Shenyang is eager to do something beyond older J-11/15/16 series. From the very beginning FC-31 is a Shenyang own initiative without PLAAF endorsement, so funding-wise I won't rule out the possibility of Shenyang working with KSA.
• Every air force has their own doctrine and set of specific needs, FC-31 may not fit PLAAF but it could be useful for RSAF or forces of GCC/MENA. PLAAF should increasingly focus on strategic strike, strategic airlift, electronic and UAV.
  
• KSA is fast industrializing and building their own technological IP to reduce reliance on imports, FC-31 could become a joint-stake project, recent Sino-KSA co-op on UAV manufacturing is an example.

 

[Fledgingwings]

Cant say anything for sure till there is an official announcement regarding the subject.

 

[That Guy]

There is no traditional partnership from what I know about. I think this is an attempt to diversify and start new partnership with powerful partners.



You are wrong. KSA's largest trading partner is China and KSA-China relations are growing on all fronts and also in terms of military cooperation as evidenced by the many new exciting deals signed between the two countries. This relationship dates back to the 1980's. It is true that US weapons systems are the best currently (no doubt about this) but this does not mean that this will be the case forever let alone in the next few decades. China is a rising superpower and it would make a lot of sense for KSA to pursue closer ties with China each year and such a project would be a excellent start and show true commitment. I would not rule it out completely. This is also why relations between KSA and Russia have improved significantly in the past 2 years. The world is changing and KSA (nor anyone else in the region not even Israel) can afford to put all their eggs into one basket (USA).

People in KSA and the Arab world in general have favorable views of China (the ties are also historic and ancient predating Islam) and we look at China as a economic model to follow. Underestimating China, nobody is doing. Unlike peoples views of American foreign policy.

I think we need to differentiate want and need, as well as differentiate between economic and military cooperation, with military procurement preference.

KSA, much like Pakistan, wants western equipment, but with limitations on what it can buy (due to US laws), it has no choice but to cooperate with the second best (not counting Russia, due to politics not allowing major cooperation), which in this case is China. While what you've said is true, I personally don't believe that is the main motivation here.

Let's not kid ourselves, the US isn't sitting on its ***, and not developing future weapons. It will have a technological edge over the rest of the world, for decades to come. China is closing the gap, and quickly, but when analysts say "quickly", they don't mean 10-20 years, they mean 30-50 years; Even the Chinese recognize this very fact.

Military procurement isn't like economic cooperation, plans change quite rapidly. Modernization plans rarely, if ever, see through to completion, and are often replaced by newer plans. Whatever KSA buys from the US/China/etc, will likely need replacing within a decade, if the military is to remain technologically advanced.

With economic cooperation, change is difficult to enact, as it takes at least two economies to make such a plan succeed. It is even more difficult to replace, because (again) it takes at least two to replace the plan, or heavy penalties for one of them to pull out of. Take NAFTA, for example; Trump wants to either pull out of NAFTA, or renegotiate its terms, but he hasn't been able to do either. Why? The cost of pulling out is far too high a penalty, and trade politics has resulted in Canada and Mexico reluctant to even start talking about potential renegotiation of a treaty that favors them over the US.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

... Let's not kid ourselves, the US isn't sitting on its ***, and not developing future weapons. It will have a technological edge over the rest of the world, for decades to come. China is closing the gap, and quickly, but when analysts say "quickly", they don't mean 10-20 years, they mean 30-50 years...

I do not think so. If 10-20 years. Unless to re-launch programs such as F-22 but they can not (Money). Programs F-22 and F-35 are the worst strategic mistakes of modern times. It’s too late !

F-35 Continues to Stumble (March 30, 2017)



...

 

[That Guy]

I do not think so. If 10-20 years. Unless to re-launch programs such as F-22 but they can not (Money). Programs F-22 and F-35 are the worst strategic mistakes of modern times. It’s too late !

F-35 Continues to Stumble (March 30, 2017)

...

First, that assumes the US doesn't already have successor programs in pre-development. There have already been reports of corps sending DoD their concept of 6th gen fighters.

Second, both the F-22 has already proven its worth, and the F-35 is looking like it is as well. Financing is a major problem, but criticizing the systems themselves, when the fault lies on the accountants and politicians, that is an unfair thing to do. For sure, there are issues with the F-35's parts, but they'll be fixed in time. No new fighter ever has a smooth launch.

 

[UKBengali]

Let's not kid ourselves, the US isn't sitting on its ***, and not developing future weapons. It will have a technological edge over the rest of the world, for decades to come. China is closing the gap, and quickly, but when analysts say "quickly", they don't mean 10-20 years, they mean 30-50 years; Even the Chinese recognize this very fact.

Which Chinese/scientist engineer can be quoted to have said that?
I read an article years ago where a top Chinese engine scientist says it will take til 2040 to catch up to the US in engine technology. Other areas will presumably take less since the Chinese are most behind in engine tech.

My guess is that China will catch up with US in nearly all technologies by 2030, with engines taking say 10 years longer. Days of US/Western technological superiority will be over within a generation.

@ChineseTiger1986

 

[That Guy]

Which Chinese/scientist engineer can be quoted to have said that?
I read an article years ago where a top Chinese engine scientist says it will take til 2040 to catch up to the US in engine technology. Other areas will presumably take less since the Chinese are most behind in engine tech.

My guess is that China will catch up with US in nearly all technologies by 2030, with engines taking say 10 years longer. Days of US/Western technological superiority will be over within a generation.

@ChineseTiger1986

I tend to not read into what the Chinese or US engineers have to say, when it comes to who is better at what. The simple reason being that both sides would be highly bias.

Besides, intention and reality are two different things.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

I think we need to differentiate want and need, as well as differentiate between economic and military cooperation, with military procurement preference.

KSA, much like Pakistan, wants western equipment, but with limitations on what it can buy (due to US laws), it has no choice but to cooperate with the second best (not counting Russia, due to politics not allowing major cooperation), which in this case is China. While what you've said is true, I personally don't believe that is the main motivation here.

Let's not kid ourselves, the US isn't sitting on its ***, and not developing future weapons. It will have a technological edge over the rest of the world, for decades to come. China is closing the gap, and quickly, but when analysts say "quickly", they don't mean 10-20 years, they mean 30-50 years; Even the Chinese recognize this very fact.

Military procurement isn't like economic cooperation, plans change quite rapidly. Modernization plans rarely, if ever, see through to completion, and are often replaced by newer plans. Whatever KSA buys from the US/China/etc, will likely need replacing within a decade, if the military is to remain technologically advanced.

With economic cooperation, change is difficult to enact, as it takes at least two economies to make such a plan succeed. It is even more difficult to replace, because (again) it takes at least two to replace the plan, or heavy penalties for one of them to pull out of. Take NAFTA, for example; Trump wants to either pull out of NAFTA, or renegotiate its terms, but he hasn't been able to do either. Why? The cost of pulling out is far too high a penalty, and trade politics has resulted in Canada and Mexico reluctant to even start talking about potential renegotiation of a treaty that favors them over the US.

There is little that KSA/GCC needs/wants which cannot be bought from the US.

I disagree. Economic cooperation and in general close ties between countries often amount to closer cooperation on other fronts and in this case it makes perfect sense for KSA to pursue even closer military ties with China - a trusted partner in this regard since the 1980's.

Nobody is saying that China has closed the gap but would you bet against them doing that eventually? We are talking about a nation of 1.3 BILLION people with a economy that is soon going to become the largest in the world. So it would be very favorable and sensible to not exactly "jump ship" but to pursue even closer ties with China and why not do that today rather than tomorrow? This way additional trust can be built and KSA/GCC/Arab world could become an active partner in this process just like on the economic front.

KSA/GCC already has excellent ties with both the US and China and I cannot see why this should not continue.