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Did India really 've OFFENSIVE doctrines??

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CS in its simplistic form means that India:

- will 'attack' Pakistan even before we are able to mobilize.
- will try to keep the 'attack' limited so as not to cross Pakistan's perceived nuclear threshold.
sir is there a source that you could post before I take those words as touchstone to India's cold start doctrine because if that was true then by now we would 've fought a lot many more wars.
This could merely be your interpretation.
Xeric said:
You probably were born recently, i mean are young.
Go a bit beyond 1990 in history and you will know what Indian's doctrine was back then. Hint Hint: ToS
Sir proof please...I would not take your words as god's words.
whatever you say on this thread needs to be backed by neutral sources (as in dont use Indian or pakistani links).
I've made it clear in the very beginning of this thread.
And as far as I know even if I look back beyond 1990 I see wars and covert operations started by our neighbors.


Yessir!
This is known is offensive posturing
Sir you're hell bent on misconstruing it.
 
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sir is there a source that you could post before I take those words as touchstone to India's cold start doctrine because if that was true then by now we would 've fought a lot many more wars.
This could merely be your interpretation.


Go a bit beyond 1990 in history and you will know what Indian's doctrine was back then. Hint Hint: ToS
Sir proof please...I would not take your words as god's words.
whatever you say on this thread needs to be backed by neutral sources (as in dont use Indian or pakistani links).
I've made it clear in the very beginning of this thread.
And as far as I know even if I look back beyond 1990 I see wars and covert operations started by our neighbors.



Sir you're hell bent on misconstruing it.
Every country has a GHQ or Army Staff. And it is their duty to prepare plans of various kinds. I am sure Indian High Command had or has plans that are offensive in nature. Pakistan also surely has similar plans. It is the job of a High Command to plan every kind of possibility - however improbable. This is neither surprising, nor is it an indication of an intention to invade. In the Staff Schools, mock offensives and defensive plans are chalked out with blue and red teams every week. This is routine in every armed force in the world. India is no exception. Does not imply any offensive motive.
 
Every country has a GHQ or Army Staff. And it is their duty to prepare plans of various kinds. I am sure Indian High Command had or has plans that are offensive in nature. Pakistan also surely has similar plans. It is the job of a High Command to plan every kind of possibility - however improbable. This is neither surprising, nor is it an indication of an intention to invade. In the Staff Schools, mock offensives and defensive plans are chalked out with blue and red teams every week. This is routine in every armed force in the world. India is no exception. Does not imply any offensive motive.
Thats common sense, but did you read the opening line of this thread??
And tell me if you agree that our neighbors 've had only defensive doctrines.
 
Militarily, a Preemptive Strike, though being an offensive itself is known to a "defensive" maneuver. Now let me explain this.

If any of the following scenario builds up:-

- Pakistan had moved its strike elements to battle localities.
- India is unable to find where the strike elements are i.e. unable to predict where/which sector they would be employed.
- Pakistan is going to do something what Israel did by using its airforce to destroy forces while they are still inside their peace locations.
- That India knows if Pakistan would attack first, it would be able to inflict such losses recovering from which would not be possible for India.

.

Sir If Pakistan mobilises its formations ; India shall immediately be on alert

There is absolutely no way you can surprise us

A premptive conventional strike has been debated by PA since the times of Brasstacks

But it has not happened even during 1990 ; 1999 ; 2002 and 2008

Pakistan will not achieve anything by a preemptive CONVENTIONAL strike
other than this leading to full fledged war

1999 Kargil was so hard for Pakistan to first disown and then own

Secondly India even in peace times ; posseses enough manpower
and fire power in its Holding and pivot corps to be able to blunt any aggression

And then we are free to launch our counter attacks


A preemptive conventional strike by Pakistan THAT too AFTER a terrorist attack
on India on the grounds that India is about to attack ; will be simply adding fuel to fire
 
2 points. I never said "irrespective of any false flag", merely that even if you called it so......
This doesnt matter. The point between line here is that India is going to attack Pakistan, if there is an incident inside India whether a real one, false flag or even due to as i like to call it itch.

Hence, the following ensues out of the above:-

- War initiator will be India.
- To be the initiator India has to keep its strike forces up and ready 24/7, because a terror incident false flag or real or for that matter the itch will not announce itself before happening.
- By keeping its strike elements on toes and ready most of the time so as to respond to any incident means that the country is generating an offensive posture. What's so hard in it to understand?

If my sword (the real one :D) is out of the sheath all the times, even when i am making love, dude, i am offensive!!

To answer your main point, I said that regardless of whether you call it a preemptive strike or not, the logic backing the argument of it being a retaliation against an attack by the state of Pakistan or its proxies is valid irrespective of how you wish to categorise it.
Attack of state of Pakistan

And

Attack by so called proxies

are two different things, " irrespective of how you wish to categorise it."

Even then, if the retaliatory strike is in response to an act by the so called proxies, here i will like to draw your attention towards my third point above:
- By keeping its strike elements on toes and ready most of the time so as to respond to any incident means that the country is generating an offensive posture. What's so hard in it to understand?


No tricks, merely a stating of "common sense" position that an attack by a known proxy of Pakistan can & will be seen as an attack by the Pakistani state, protestations like you have said not withstanding. I didn't argue specifically on military posture, you can go back & read what I said exactly. Maybe those in Pakistan's power structure too should understand that the "trick" of separating the Pakistani state from its proxies may not work as well as before. Maybe then, we can all be done with these "tricks".
[/QUOTE]
What you want to believe and know is of the least concern to me.

But, for this (retaliatory strike) to happen, the actions India is supposed to take and has already taken (in the form of Cold Start/Pro Active Operations) as a function of commonsense spells out to be an offensive military posture and thus the conclusion that India (always) has had an Offensive Doctrine against Pakistan.


Just so that you and other readers should not forget, i'll like to say it again one more time:

- By keeping its strike elements on toes and ready most of the time so as to respond to any incident (itched, false flagged or real) means that the country is generating an offensive posture. What's so hard in it to understand?

Savvy?

sir is there a source that you could post before I take those words as touchstone to India's cold start doctrine because if that was true then by now we would 've fought a lot many more wars.
This could merely be your interpretation.

Sir proof please...I would not take your words as god's words.
whatever you say on this thread needs to be backed by neutral sources (as in dont use Indian or pakistani links).

Sache sache batana, did you ever read any paper or link on Cold Start ever?


And as far as I know even if I look back beyond 1990 I see wars and covert operations started by our neighbors.
My indication to go beyond 1990 was for you to look towards your OWN military doctrine which was prevalent at that time. Stop sniffing our arse on every opportunity that you guys get, please!
 
Sache sache batana, did you ever read any paper or link on Cold Start ever?
Sach sach boliye ki aap ke paas proof nahi hai.
As far as I'm concerned I posted proof in the very first reply to you.

Xeric said:
My indication to go beyond 1990 was for you to look towards your OWN military doctrine which was prevalent at that time.
I've proved that popular misconception wrong too.

Xeric said:
Stop sniffing our arse on every opportunity that you guys get, please!
I'm assuming you're senior to me and ergo I dont expect you to use such language on this thread.10 pages and nobody has resorted to lalochezia yet.
 
Sach sach boliye ki aap ke paas proof nahi hai.
As far as I'm concerned I posted proof in the very first reply to you.

Oh bhai, what proof? It's a writing on the wall!

Google it, if you cant get anything from your military for Gods Sake!

God! Why i was even talking with you?!

i say again, you dont even have the minutest of the idea of what Sunderji Doctrine, CS, ToS and PAOs is/was!! And you had the cheeks to open up a thread challenging the Admin of this board, and he and i and many other have wasted precious bandwidth over it!

@Horus
Dude, if you cant maintain this forum's standard, atleast dont let is go down any further!
 
Now coming towards Cold Start (CS).

CS in its simplistic form means that India:

- will 'attack' Pakistan even before we are able to mobilize.
- will try to keep the 'attack' limited so as not to cross Pakistan's perceived nuclear threshold.

This is known is offensive posturing aka offensive doctrine aka initiating the war. aka commonsense!
Rubbish! There's no such doctrine as 'Cold Start'. Period! This has also been confirmed by the defence minister as well as the previous chief.

This was just an idea put forth by a brigadier in the Combat Journal!! And you guys are jumping all over the place imagining all kinds of scenarios!! Jeeeez!
 
Even then, if the retaliatory strike is in response to an act by the so called proxies, here i will like to draw your attention towards my third point above:
- By keeping its strike elements on toes and ready most of the time so as to respond to any incident means that the country is generating an offensive posture. What's so hard in it to understand?

I have made my Point clearly. Whether or not you assume there is an offensive posture, any action taken after an attack is clearly a retaliation, not an unprovoked act of aggression. As you said " what you wish to believe and know" is equally not a concern that I would bother with anymore than you would.

To use your line - What's so hard in it to understand?
 
Thats common sense, but did you read the opening line of this thread??
And tell me if you agree that our neighbors 've had only defensive doctrines.

Not at all,,,if pakistan was what india is today and we were at the level of them................we would have been toppled long back.Thats the doctrine of pakistan.Every sane person knows this fact but the admin just has a habbit of pouring petrol in fire to increase the traffic with his ludicrous and outrageous claims like on sikhs in another thread.
 
Oh bhai, what proof? It's a writing on the wall!

Google it, if you cant get anything from your military for Gods Sake!

God! Why i was even talking with you?!

i say again, you dont even have the minutest of the idea of what Sunderji Doctrine, CS, ToS and PAOs is/was!! And you had the cheeks to open up a thread challenging the Admin of this board, and he and i and many other have wasted precious bandwidth over it!
If googling it was so simple sir then you would've produced a proof to what you had posted.
Now I see your posts as nothing but rants.
 
Rubbish! There's no such doctrine as 'Cold Start'. Period! This has also been confirmed by the defence minister as well as the previous chief.

This was just an idea put forth by a brigadier in the Combat Journal!! And you guys are jumping all over the place imagining all kinds of scenarios!! Jeeeez!
You know what, you are right ;)
 
@OrionHunter @levina

If we dont have any offensive doctrines then why do we hold Regular exercises

Why do we have strike Corps

And above all what will we do if war breaks out

Cold start has caused a lot of consternation in our neighbourhood
So it is now called Pro Active strategy or Rapid Mobilisation strategy :p:

Wars are best fought on enemy territory hence the need for offensive doctrines
 
"Chamcha"??

Quest to become blue:sarcastic:

@OrionHunter @levina

If we dont have any offensive doctrines then why do we hold Regular exercises

Why do we have strike Corps

And above all what will we do if war breaks out

Cold start has caused a lot of consternation in our neighbourhood
So it is now called Pro Active strategy or Rapid Mobilisation strategy :p:

Wars are best fought on enemy territory hence the need for offensive doctrines

We are wise in restraint at this point.
A decade of growth will make as a 3-3.5 trillion economy,,then time will be right.Anyways pakistan is not capable of growth more than 5%.
 
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