Did anza missiles fail during kargil?

[SQ8]

During Kargil conflict on 28 may 1999 near about 20 anzas & stingers were fired at Nubra formation of 4 Mi-17s with just one successful hit. In the whole war PA fired good number of Stingers & Anzas but succeeded in only hitting 3 aircrafts.
Although I did not consider anza as a failure because no MANPAD has 100% kill capability as aircrafts have their own defence systems.

Source for that bit?

The Idea of Pakistani Generals (Musharraf) was great, we did reach our goal to capture all the heights, to cut the indian supplys, and that with a combination of Paramilitary Forces-NLI, Mujahid-voulanters-Forces. We failed in the military logistics, to maintenance the conquered indian posts, evacuation of injured personall, and disposition of materiel, construction of heavy all weather Bunkers.

Ill ask the same question that Benazir put in her book: "Then what?"

It was a great tactical idea with the most idiotic of strategic thought in it.

As for the Anza systems, they had operating parameters that kept them interspersed with the Stinger teams. There were not Hundreds fired as claimed since after the IAF's first losses they changed their tactics entirely. After which they really could not be targeted anymore.

Sadly , the Army still believes that its MANPADS are the all in all solution to air defence. A sad reminder of the existing stagnation in modern thought within the rank and file of the Army.

 

[Krate M]

Ok I read another Pakistani source (Maybe citation for bravery awards for kargil war).

All they mention is 2 Anza mk II and a stinger hit. This if taken with the assumption that the article I used for starting the thread was talking about mk I makes sense.

On 27 May 1999, Gunner Sepoy Shafaqat Ali commanded by Capt. Faheem Tipu, Pakistan Army Air Defence shot down an IAF MiG-27ML using an ANZA-II SAM.
Also on 27 May 1999, Naik Talib Hussain Basharat commanded by Capt. Faheem Tipu of the Pakistan Army Air Defence shot down an IAF MiG-21 using an ANZA-II SAM.
On 28 May 1999, Lance Havaldar Muhammad Kamal of the Pakistan Army Air Defence shot down an IAF Mil Mi-17 Helicopter using a Stinger SAM.

surmadumar | Dream Pakistan | Page 27

 

[HAIDER]

Anza Mk-II MANPADS in Libya

Anza Mk-II Man-Portable Air Defence Systems (MANPADS) have been observed in Libya. A source working with an NGO in Libya, who wishes to remain anonymous, sent me the images featured in this piece. These images were taken in 2011 at arms depots wrested from government control by rebel forces. The Anza Mk-II, developed at the Dr A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories in Kahuta, is a derivative of the Chinese QW-1, first developed in the early 1990s. It was introduced to Pakistan’s armed forces in 1994, and features a slant range of approximately 5km, a maximum engagement altitude of around 4km, and a missile speed of approximately 600m/s. The Anza Mk-II missile features a solid-fuel booster and solid-fuel sustainer motor, weighs 10.68kg, and contains around 550g of High Explosive (HE).

The Anza Mk-II constitutes a greater threat than the SA-7b systems that make up the bulk of MANPADS identified in Libya. Nonetheless, it poses only a moderate danger to modern fighter aircraft. How these missiles ended up in Libya is not clear, with Malaysia being the only known export customer of the system. Anza Mk-I missiles have, however, been recovered by the Indian military from militants in Kashmir.

Anza Mk-II missile launch tubes are seen alongside 9K32M (SA-7b) and 9K338 (SA-24) tubes in a captured arms depot.

interesting comparison

 

[Juggernautjatt]

 

[SQ8]

Ok I read another Pakistani source (Maybe citation for bravery awards for kargil war).

All they mention is 2 Anza mk II and a stinger hit. This if taken with the assumption that the article I used for starting the thread was talking about mk I makes sense.

surmadumar | Dream Pakistan | Page 27

Still not sure HOW you reached the conclusion of hundreds fired that missed.. or whatever number at some large mi-17 formation?

 

[HAIDER]

Something about Anza 2

 

[Krate M]

I did not say that @Oscar thats some one else. Maybe you quoted wrong post. I think the strategy was to inflict a lot of casualties on IAF, saturation attacks would make sense. Kaiser Tufail article says stinger on every peak.The fact that the same captain commanded the guys who got two victims, points that he was having a different strategy or got plain lucky or both.
@HAIDER Interesting video, though it doesnt say anything about the missile used, it mentions something that I had read in some comment section of blog (I don't remember the website) that there was a an issue with the battery of Stingers (?) and other MANPADS, is it possible that the battery spares for anza mk I were old, not allowing them to lock on targets properly?
BTW in this photo how do you distinguish mk II from others.

 

[HAIDER]

I did not say that @Oscar thats some one else. Maybe you quoted wrong post.
@HAIDER Interesting video, though it doesnt say anything about the missile used, it mentions something that I had read in some comment section of blog (I don't remember the website) that there was a an issue with the battery of Stingers (?) and other MANPADS, is it possible that the battery spares for anza mk I were old, not allowing them to lock on targets properly?

Well, stinger first generation had some issue, it was success story in Afghanistan , but to shoot down fast moving object handlers need to shoot two or three stinger at a time to engage the target. As far as battery issue, all stinger given during Afghan war has now expired batteries. Don't know about other manpad but stinger battery has expiry date.

 

[Kloitra]

Not that it matters but now we have upgraded Anza and BVR capability-
What did you do to your Migs to up the anti?-

Didn't the Migs get upgraded ECM and EWS?

 

[SQ8]

I did not say that @Oscar thats some one else. Maybe you quoted wrong post. I think the strategy was to inflict a lot of casualties on IAF, saturation attacks would make sense. Kaiser Tufail article says stinger on every peak.The fact that the same captain commanded the guys who got two victims, points that he was having a different strategy or got plain lucky or both.
@HAIDER Interesting video, though it doesnt say anything about the missile used, it mentions something that I had read in some comment section of blog (I don't remember the website) that there was a an issue with the battery of Stingers (?) and other MANPADS, is it possible that the battery spares for anza mk I were old, not allowing them to lock on targets properly?
BTW in this photo how do you distinguish mk II from others.

Yes sorry, that is the issue with multiple quotes sadly.

The simple fact is that MANPADS have limited potential against fixed wing assets(unless flying very low and rather slow such as the A-10, Su-25.. or dedicated ground attack assets during their ingress). Whatever success was achieved was done so with smart tactics and sheer luck of placement.

That is not to say that they are not deadly. The recent purchase by India of CBU-105s was aimed at the very threat that Pakistani MANPADs embedded within mechanized formations poses to their tradational rocket and dumb bomb attacks.

 

[Krate M]

Yes sorry, that is the issue with multiple quotes sadly.

The simple fact is that MANPADS have limited potential against fixed wing assets(unless flying very low and rather slow such as the A-10, Su-25.. or dedicated ground attack assets during their ingress). Whatever success was achieved was done so with smart tactics and sheer luck of placement.

That is not to say that they are not deadly. The recent purchase by India of CBU-105s was aimed at the very threat that Pakistani MANPADs embedded within mechanized formations poses to their tradational rocket and dumb bomb attacks.

No problem
True, there is a limited window of opportunity. Another variable might have been the training of the troops if it was NLI manning the MANPADS, if trained on say stingers would not have used anza mk I optimally. In the video haider posted, the soldier says that the mig was shot down on a repeat run, so it was following the same trajectory and was on predictable path. The peak where the 2 migs were shot down might be one presenting some advantage.
regarding the cbu buy, that is one of the plausible scenarios, though a modern aircraft with flares might not need that tactic against MANPADS, Against embedded SAM like crotale may be.

 

[SQ8]

No problem
True, there is a limited window of opportunity. Another variable might have been the training of the troops if it was NLI manning the MANPADS, if trained on say stingers would not have used anza mk I optimally. In the video haider posted, the soldier says that the mig was shot down on a repeat run, so it was following the same trajectory and was on predictable path. The peak where the 2 migs were shot down might be one presenting some advantage.
regarding the cbu buy, that is one of the plausible scenarios, though a modern aircraft with flares might not need that tactic against MANPADS, Against embedded SAM like crotale may be.

Modern MANPADs have a higher degree of avoiding the illusion of flares. The Sa-18 gimlets used by the IA and Anza Mk-II(post-2000s) all can distinguish well between flares.

 

[Kloitra]

Modern MANPADs have a higher degree of avoiding the illusion of flares. The Sa-18 gimlets used by the IA and Anza Mk-II(post-2000s) all can distinguish well between flares.

Than what are the countermeasures against them?

 

[SQ8]

Than what are the countermeasures against them?

DiRCM jammers. Heavy flare deployment ala this

 

[Kloitra]

DiRCM jammers. Heavy flare deployment ala this

Either of them in this part of the world?