Dhanoa's 'Plan B' and implications for Pakistan

[Cat Shannon]

just another crappy thread. waste of bandwidth and internet space.

WTF are you guys even discussing ? PAF will be able to stand up to IAF only when the J-31s customized to paf specs (will be called project azm, maybe a part of the fuselage will be manufactured in pak) comes in at least 3 squadrons.

Before that happens, the fictional AESA radar in JF17 or the long range naval cruise missiles drowning the Indian carrier group is pure bollocks. smells like that four letter word. India will attack with precision and planning. It will take hits and carry on to finish the job. Even if they lose (lets say 50) pilots they will not say "oh no, these JF17s are the modern muslim invaders off Arabia or turkey." lets turn back to India and cower in terror of the mighty PAF" LMAO..

So, what will actually save the Pakistan from the Indian onslaught ? Chinese military, MILITARY intervention.

That my dear friends could have happened in the past, but now ? in 2018 ? Nevah...on PDF ? sure..sure...have it your way..like I said, a waste of bandwidth and internet space.

So, now...Pakistan really doesn't have a plan to counter Dhanoa's plan B C or Z.

what happens on LoC is localized. it doesn't spill over to the Indian defense structure. nor does it affect Pakistani defense mindset. It runs on revenge, the LoC thing.

But yeah, short version : Pakistan still can't do jack to plan c b or d cause without outside help for Pakistan, dhanoa's plan A will work. in the end, it will work well enough.

what India is doing to counter it's shortcomings is another matter for another thread but yes, India isn't sitting down casually smoking a ciggie as well. It's in a rut right now cause no new fighter planes are coming till 2019 when the rafales come. but yes, tejas is doing well and holds great promise for the future. that is the best thing that has happened to the IAF in recent years even if they will not admit it. A local source of an excellent aircraft.

Annywho..who cares..you guys keep doing this endlessly...your nephews and nieces will do it one day ..then the next generation will come...same bullshit will continue...waste of internet.

 

[randomradio]

just another crappy thread. waste of bandwidth and internet space.

WTF are you guys even discussing ? PAF will be able to stand up to IAF only when the J-31s customized to paf specs (will be called project azm, maybe a part of the fuselage will be manufactured in pak) comes in at least 3 squadrons.

Before that happens, the fictional AESA radar in JF17 or the long range naval cruise missiles drowning the Indian carrier group is pure bollocks. smells like that four letter word. India will attack with precision and planning. It will take hits and carry on to finish the job. Even if they lose (lets say 50) pilots they will not say "oh no, these JF17s are the modern muslim invaders off Arabia or turkey." lets turn back to India and cower in terror of the mighty PAF" LMAO..

So, what will actually save the Pakistan from the Indian onslaught ? Chinese military, MILITARY intervention.

That my dear friends could have happened in the past, but now ? in 2018 ? Nevah...on PDF ? sure..sure...have it your way..like I said, a waste of bandwidth and internet space.

So, now...Pakistan really doesn't have a plan to counter Dhanoa's plan B C or Z.

what happens on LoC is localized. it doesn't spill over to the Indian defense structure. nor does it affect Pakistani defense mindset. It runs on revenge, the LoC thing.

But yeah, short version : Pakistan still can't do jack to plan c b or d cause without outside help for Pakistan, dhanoa's plan A will work. in the end, it will work well enough.

what India is doing to counter it's shortcomings is another matter for another thread but yes, India isn't sitting down casually smoking a ciggie as well. It's in a rut right now cause no new fighter planes are coming till 2019 when the rafales come. but yes, tejas is doing well and holds great promise for the future. that is the best thing that has happened to the IAF in recent years even if they will not admit it. A local source of an excellent aircraft.

Annywho..who cares..you guys keep doing this endlessly...your nephews and nieces will do it one day ..then the next generation will come...same bullshit will continue...waste of internet.

The gist of your argument is correct, but you got one thing wrong.

Plan B is for when both Pakistan and China attack India. Even in this context, the PAF is not a real player. The idea is to destroy PAF in 3 days and then move the excess articles to the Eastern Theatre on day 4 and 5.

And no, the J-31 won't do much against India either. We already have the ability to take out PAF jets while they are getting prepped for take off.

 

[Cat Shannon]

The gist of your argument is correct, but you got one thing wrong.

Plan B is for when both Pakistan and China attack India. Even in this context, the PAF is not a real player. The idea is to destroy PAF in 3 days and then move the excess articles to the Eastern Theatre on day 4 and 5.

And no, the J-31 won't do much against India either. We already have the ability to take out PAF jets while they are getting prepped for take off.

In reality, that day will not come in the next 10 years. Will never come unless India sends 2 AC groups into South China Sea with effect to provide military muscle to Indian oil rigs in viet waters.

And let me write it here Loud and clear so that everybody can listen to it.

For Kashmir, Pakistan will not stick it's neck out ever. Pakistan will not remain as it is if it tries even a kargil today. why ? cause kargil today WILL escalate into a nuke war and pakistan will never do it. for kashmir. moral support, training to the kashmiri boys foolish enough to try terrorism, a few ak47s, handgreanades etc is where the support ends. and typing big heavy words on PDF, that's where the support ends. ordinary pakistanis in real life have stopped caring the kashmir long since. why ? cause they have realized it's not gonna happen. not our brave boys from PDF, they eat $h!t and gurgle with kashmir and their undying unflinching support to the freedom fighters often liberated on indian soil. but ordinary pakistanis who havent heard about defence.pk they don't care about kashmiris anymore. kashmiris only in india have been able to seclude themselves, pak kashmir is now a part of pakistan. just another province. why will you go to nuclear war for a province you already have ?

remains china.

Chinese are the followers of the art of war. if you can understand what they do, you'll see that they are reasonable fools who dream on becoming the next US based on chinese sweat shops and their ability to create a system which has worked for China. We don't have beef with them. We have, but not big enough to have a war over. Reality. China one day will threaten to send its army and AF over our disputes. It will when it will think India will cower to it. Whether it will send it's army or not is another thing. Eleven xing ping is consolidating his hold over the chinese central commitee. the PLA is becoming a real fighting machine and is arming to the teeth. IF we also do the exact same, China will keep a distance. It will become an economical war rather a military war. And yes, we are prepared for it too. Point is, if we can handle it, China will not have a war with India in some decent future as well.

what if china attacks and pakistan sensing an opportunity, attacks as well ?

we already have radars that look deep into pakistan. their f16s and mirages and the recent jf17s are already in our radars reach. the only unknown question is the missile attacks. we, indians know that. hence in the last decade, we have been putting together a three layer ballistic missile defence system as well as cruise missile defence systems too. just because the only pak weapons which might reach indian mainland are the pak missiles. nothing else in their inventory is an offensive weapon. everything else will go into defending pakistan from the indian onslaught. with the three layer defence system in place, we can be assured that we will be able to contain the damages and then go for our retaliatory strikes. that will pretty much assure us that the pak threat has been neutralized completely.And yes, by the time we will see that day, China encircling India or not, we will have pakistan surrounded so that they won't be able to fall back to Afghanistan.

china is another beast and this is where the US and the US tech will come into play. We will buy an American fighter one day, we are slowly but surely getting there. I personally want us to shift all our eastern block weapons to western block. i want pakistan to slip into the eastern block from the western block weapons base they once had. the reversal of the 60-70s. the consequences of that alone will be monstrous and pervading. so, yeah orange man or no orange man, we will have US help to contain China. You know why ? Simply because Pakistan is going to be the strongest chinese ally and that hasn't worked in the past either. So, yeah, I'm not worried about China as well.

Both together attacks, gaganshakti proved that we are capable of that. We can handle it well.

so, yeah a butt load of mental masturbation around in this thread. author wants china to put pakistani aircraft on indo-sino border. like jf17s. or american made operated by pak the venerable mighty pak f16 will defend china from india from doklam. that kinda stuff is better than weed.

 

[randomradio]

china is another beast and this is where the US and the US tech will come into play. We will buy an American fighter one day, we are slowly but surely getting there. I personally want us to shift all our eastern block weapons to western block.

Agree with everything except this. We are not giving up on Russian systems yet, maybe 10 years later. We will continue to be interested in their hitech systems, like the PAK FA and S-500, until we make our equivalents. And we will depend on French and Israeli systems as usual, again only 10 years or so. Beyond that, we will have transitioned to Indian weapons.

We won't be buying US fighter aircraft. The CISMOA/COMCASA requirement for buying American fighter aircraft is pretty nonsensical. They can shove it up their behinds unless they are willing to make major changes. Another problem with the Americans is we want the stuff that they will not export. Everything else, we will have indigenized over the next 10 years, so I don't see India-US defence relations turning out to be anything significant beyond wide body aircraft and perhaps heavy and ultra-heavy lift helicopters, maybe a missile or two thrown in the mix, like a 4th gen Javelin. We will continue to share surveillance assets, like the P-8, but nothing very significant beyond that.

i want pakistan to slip into the eastern block from the western block weapons base they once had. the reversal of the 60-70s.

Yes, this is highly desirable. And the advantage here is the Chinese will not give the Pakistanis their best stuff either. They are worse than the Soviet Union in that sense. But I'm sure the Pakistanis will keep their options open. There's Turkey, Sweden, Italy and South Africa.

 

[Cat Shannon]

Agree with everything except this. We are not giving up on Russian systems yet, maybe 10 years later. We will continue to be interested in their hitech systems, like the PAK FA and S-500, until we make our equivalents. And we will depend on French and Israeli systems as usual, again only 10 years or so. Beyond that, we will have transitioned to Indian weapons.

here is the thing, for us to really transition to an indian system like france has done, it will take another 20 years.

our next big purchases when it comes to air power will be the successor to the su30mki and the successor to rafale. we bought rafale late. but it saves our skin that rafale still is the pinnacle of technology in south asia and east asia not counting japan, aus growlers and the unknown j20. every single plane other than these will be shot down by rafale in air to air combat. as of 2019. when rafales start coming to India.

LCA mk 2 with an uttam radar and the kaveri engine will be our first complete product and it and it's iterations (stealthy LCA) will form the basis of the air force fighter pyramid from 2030 on wards. AMCA won't be ready for serial production yet by 2030. trust me on this. but shortly afterwards in another 5 years AMCA will be flying in large numbers in tricolor roundel. AMCA will be our first homegrown stealth aircraft, albeit medium size..what remains is the heavy air superiority fighter like the present su30mki. our plan was for FGFA not PAKFA. FGFA has been shot down to death as we have realized russians still are developing and fine tuning the basics of the aircraft. what now we are looking for the PAKFA MKI. As fas as I know, negotiations are going on for that as we speak. the russians will take another 5 years to develop FGFA. 2-3 more years of testing by all parties concerned. so we cut the crap and went straight for the MKI like i knew it will happen. it was unwise for us to assume that russia will share newly developed or yet to develop tech with India.

we are yet to even announce an Indian heavy fighter. even if we start that in 2025, it will start mass production only by 2040. mind it, it should be full sized stealthy bird of later than 5th gen. so, we don't even dream about it yet. but we will. This is 2018. Another 20 years makes it 2040. like i said above, by 2040, we should be able to operate three Indian birds in three different sizes and capabilities, all home made almost entirely. and by that time, that stuff will get exported too.

so, another 20 years in my opinion for us to reach independence from imports when it comes to air power. realistically speaking. not fanboy stuff. but yes, that's our vision and congress govt.s and pappu's notwithstanding, we will achieve this plan.

We won't be buying US fighter aircraft. The CISMOA/COMCASA requirement for buying American fighter aircraft is pretty nonsensical. They can shove it up their behinds unless they are willing to make major changes. Another problem with the Americans is we want the stuff that they will not export. Everything else, we will have indigenized over the next 10 years, so I don't see India-US defence relations turning out to be anything significant beyond wide body aircraft and perhaps heavy and ultra-heavy lift helicopters, maybe a missile or two thrown in the mix, like a 4th gen Javelin. We will continue to share surveillance assets, like the P-8, but nothing very significant beyond that.

you know what my heart says ?

once orange man has been disposed of by sane people in america, our next su30mki will be an f-15 type aircraft. western block, and probably US. the only other country capable of bagging this contract other than US will be France. Forget Germany or UK or Japan. In time, the kinks in US INDO relations will be ruled out. and yes, i really have this gut feeling that we will replace our strike fighter with US plane. anyway..

Yes, this is highly desirable. And the advantage here is the Chinese will not give the Pakistanis their best stuff either. They are worse than the Soviet Union in that sense. But I'm sure the Pakistanis will keep their options open. There's Turkey, Sweden, Italy and South Africa.

chinese will NEVER give pakistanis something that will not benefit china strategically. china controls the power balance between india and pak by giving pakistan the right weapons. what the US did in the 50-80's, now china is doing it. only that pakistanis are not complaining because they can't buy anything else with their budget.

So yeah it actually means a lot.

slowly pakistan will turn towards turkey and other countries too, but what do they make anyway ? only small systems at best. brazil, south africa are pakistan's best options as sweden and italy will always be dependent on US for major components. a few standalone systems aside, only europe and US has the capability to design produce and use a major system in it's entirety. what we indians are trying to achieve.

 

[randomradio]

here is the thing, for us to really transition to an indian system like france has done, it will take another 20 years.

our next big purchases when it comes to air power will be the successor to the su30mki and the successor to rafale. we bought rafale late. but it saves our skin that rafale still is the pinnacle of technology in south asia and east asia not counting japan, aus growlers and the unknown j20. every single plane other than these will be shot down by rafale in air to air combat. as of 2019. when rafales start coming to India.

LCA mk 2 with an uttam radar and the kaveri engine will be our first complete product and it and it's iterations (stealthy LCA) will form the basis of the air force fighter pyramid from 2030 on wards. AMCA won't be ready for serial production yet by 2030. trust me on this. but shortly afterwards in another 5 years AMCA will be flying in large numbers in tricolor roundel. AMCA will be our first homegrown stealth aircraft, albeit medium size..what remains is the heavy air superiority fighter like the present su30mki. our plan was for FGFA not PAKFA. FGFA has been shot down to death as we have realized russians still are developing and fine tuning the basics of the aircraft. what now we are looking for the PAKFA MKI. As fas as I know, negotiations are going on for that as we speak. the russians will take another 5 years to develop FGFA. 2-3 more years of testing by all parties concerned. so we cut the crap and went straight for the MKI like i knew it will happen. it was unwise for us to assume that russia will share newly developed or yet to develop tech with India.

we are yet to even announce an Indian heavy fighter. even if we start that in 2025, it will start mass production only by 2040. mind it, it should be full sized stealthy bird of later than 5th gen. so, we don't even dream about it yet. but we will. This is 2018. Another 20 years makes it 2040. like i said above, by 2040, we should be able to operate three Indian birds in three different sizes and capabilities, all home made almost entirely. and by that time, that stuff will get exported too.

so, another 20 years in my opinion for us to reach independence from imports when it comes to air power. realistically speaking. not fanboy stuff. but yes, that's our vision and congress govt.s and pappu's notwithstanding, we will achieve this plan.

It's like reading one of my own posts. But yeah, when it comes to air force technologies, it will take the longest time. However we will have caught up when it comes to a lot of other stuff by then. Anyway, this is what I mean by 10 years. So we will buy what we want in the next 10 years, and then induct those over the following 10 years. That way we will be at 20. Basically we are making the same point using different means.

Also, we are not going for a domestic heavy fighter until after 2030. We will be relying on the PAK FA instead.

Anyway, you underestimate the Rafale by a lot.
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/...-the-world-air-chief-marshal-denis-mercier-2/
I am personally convinced that the Rafale is the best fighter plane in the world.

This is post F-22, mind you. Meaning, after the Rafale and Typhoon exercised with the F-22 extensively, with the F-22 demonstrating all its capabilities to the other countries involved.

you know what my heart says ?

once orange man has been disposed of by sane people in america, our next su30mki will be an f-15 type aircraft. western block, and probably US. the only other country capable of bagging this contract other than US will be France. Forget Germany or UK or Japan. In time, the kinks in US INDO relations will be ruled out. and yes, i really have this gut feeling that we will replace our strike fighter with US plane. anyway..

Carrot doesn't matter. The problem with the US is, they will not give us what we want, like the LRS-1B. They will instead offer the next iteration of the F-35.

Btw, AMCA is an F-15 type fighter. AMCA will do everything the F-15 can and more, while being much lighter. So the first batch of MKIs will be replaced by Indianised PAK FAs. And the next batch by a new heavy fighter which will be taken up after AMCA nears IOC. So don't expect it to be ready anytime before 2050.

Rafale and PAK FA will be our last imported fighters.

There is in fact another 5th gen fighter jet in India that can potentially enter development if the stars are aligned. It's being done in relative secret by the private industry and can seriously upset the apple cart at the global level.

 

[Storm Force]

This is MY TAKE on What IAF will most likely morph into

Lca Mk1 x 40 by 2021/2022
Lca MK1A x 83 By 2026/2027
Rafale mk3 x 36 by 2022
Rafale mk4 x 36 by 2026 (ordered in 2020/2021)

Su30 mki 272 ( super mki upgrade starting 2022/2032 x 140 fighters only)

This leaves 180 medium weight fighters which are being upgraded as we speak

50 mirage 2000/5
70 jaguar darin 3 upgrade
63 mig29smt

ALL 3 OF THESE will be replaced by TEJAS MARK 2 which will join IAF starting 2027/2028 and this programme will see IAF induct 120 Tejas MK2 BY 2035/2036

I see AMCA ie IAF fifth generation joining in 2035 onwards

I do see a small batch order of 60 PAK FA su57 to replace MIG29 Possibly as a answer to PLAAF J20 or PAF order of J31 in 2026-2030 timeframe

I DONT SEE USA JETS JOINING IAF

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Now you are hung up on dams? I gave that as an example, not that we are aiming to take dams.



Pakistan is not the one that will fight a two-front war, India will.



It's fine. But we have no plans of entering cities.



It's simple. There was no profit in a nuclear war. What's the objective? And is the objective worth going to war? Even in a conventional setting, like right after WW2, there was no point in going to war. WW1 ended warfare as a whole. It was just Hitler who was nuts enough to go to war. So even without nukes, there was no possibility of war between the US and SU.

The Soviet Union never operated with MAD in mind. Their belief was they would win a nuclear war. And their entire MIC was geared towards winning the conventional war that followed a nuclear war. The Soviets never believed in MAD because they had conventional superiority. With the dissolution of the SU, the US also stopped talking about MAD since they now have conventional superiority. Their withdrawal from the ABM Treaty and commencing the development of ICBM stoppers was a proof of that. The Russians followed it up with the development of the S-500.

The reason why nuclear war can be fought is because of this thing called tunnelling. You could simply tunnel your way to safety.

In India's case, it's two-fold. One, if we go to war today, we will win, but at the cost of destabilising the entire region, like in Iraq and Syria. Although the Kashmir issue will be resolved, the cost will be far too much.

Second, we want to be able to defeat Pakistan overwhelmingly, like what the US did in Iraq. We want to do it with minimum casualties, even if the war goes nuclear. We are slowly reaching a point where SR/MR/IRBMs are becoming useless because of BMD. When that happens, the nuclear threat from Pakistan will diminish considerably, and our conventional superiority would have further improved. We do not have this advantage yet.

Regardless, there is no objective worth pursuing by waging war on Pakistan as of today.

Anyone who believes that the gap between Pakistan and india is the same as that between America and Iraq is clinically retarded.................especially if you believe indians can do to Pakistan what america did to Iraq........

No matter what any indian says, the fact is indian CANNOT fight Pakistan militarily and defeat us. If it could then Pakistan would have been destroyed by now. This is compounded further by the stunning fact india remains too weak and powerless to fight Pakistan despite being more than 7x bigger than us and having abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege. The ONLY place india can fight Pakistan militarily is on indian think tanks and on the internet by indian fantasists, not in REAL life..................which is why you get indian generals calling for attacking Pakistan but never following through with it in reality.........

 

[randomradio]

Anyone who believes that the gap between Pakistan and india is the same as that between America and Iraq is clinically retarded.................especially if you believe indians can do to Pakistan what america did to Iraq........

No matter what any indian says, the fact is indian CANNOT fight Pakistan militarily and defeat us. If it could then Pakistan would have been destroyed by now. This is compounded further by the stunning fact india remains too weak and powerless to fight Pakistan despite being more than 7x bigger than us and having abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege. The ONLY place india can fight Pakistan militarily is on indian think tanks and on the internet by indian fantasists, not in REAL life..................which is why you get indian generals calling for attacking Pakistan but never following through with it in reality.........

Think about it this way.
How long does it take for a fighter aircraft to get prepped and ready for takeoff?
How long does it take the Brahmos to fly to a grounded aircraft from 150-200Km away?
Put 2 and 2 together and you will notice that half your air force will not even have the chance to fly.

There's a huge difference between having the capability to fight and wanting to fight. Even our conventional weapons are primarily for deterrence. We don't want to fight militarily because we have the ability to win convincingly on the table when necessary.

 

[waz]

I see this thread has become the Indian fantasies section. PAF defeated in three days, Pakistan surrounded, imaginary fighter numbers, and other assorted bollocks that hasn't got a shred of evidence in it. Thread closed.