Developed cancer drug for 'western patients' who could afford, not 'for Indians': Bayer's CEO

[halupridol]

The time and formalities required at government hospitals are beyond affording limits of a working person like me.... Not to mention that I am speculative about their ability....

Please refrain from posting anything related to pharma world which you are not aware of... Whateve you are sure about us, you can surely post the same....

look at the thread title........this thread is about pharma world..

 

[drunken-monke]

look at the thread title........this thread is about pharma world..

yes off-course, but what is the ultimate goal, health benefit.. Isn't that???

 

[halupridol]

yes outsource, but what is the ultimate goal, health benefit.. Isn't that???

???????

 

[drunken-monke]

???????

Typo error...

 

[Guynextdoor2]

You have not been recently to private docs for check up... thats why!!!!


You dont have anything sane to argue with me.. Am the expert on the matter. your frustration shows in your post...

That would be an accurate summary

 

[pursuit of happiness]

To All this hue and cry let me contribute something...
Since I am a Pharmacist (RND scientist), before putting my view in front of all, you need to understand the life cycle of Medicine... Please go through my post completely...

When a Innovator company like Bayer Pharmaceuticals start with 500/1000 chemical molecules then they end up successfully with final 1/2 molecules.. The development phase of these medicine is about 15-16 years.. More if some complex tech is involved... Clinical trials alone can be financially very painful... It requires about 1.5 to 2 billion USD for development. These medicines are then patented in US/EU/Japan.. In India Patent laws are not followed.. Compulsory licensing is done in India... The company would suffer the economic losses due to this.. remember nobody invest for charity.

About manufacturing cost- The cost include cost of Raw materials, machinery, change parts which are required for mfg and packing, Environment of manufacturing (include HEPA filters and special air conditioning. raw material and finished product quality testing can be very expensive, stability of finished product has to be tested for 3 months accelerated and 24 months for long term which is a costly affair...

medicine Invention/manufacturing is not a dhaba sort of thing which happens in domestic small scale mfg companies.. beleive me I have worked there as well.. hence if a organization gives highest quality medicine it will charge accordingly.. Just go through the article named Dirty medicine about Ranbaxy Ltd. you will come to know the reality of these generic giants...

Dirty medicine - Fortune Features

Tell me all you chair warriors, why many if not all pay highly to softwares??? Isn't that these softwares mfg cost is very low?? only cost of CD!!!! Then why you pay so much high?? Well because you pay for their intellectual efforts.. same is like here in Medicine... We pharmacist are majorly postgraduate (M.Pharm/MS/M.Tech) or doctorate (PhD) holders. Shouldn't we should get paid for our efforts??

About generics, you don't have any idea about generics in US/EU. generics should be therapeutically equivalent branded Reference listed drugs.. Do we have that system in India??? Have government done health insurance of us?? we use 1.4% of our GDP on healthcare contrary to 5% of other nations.. Dont blame pharma industries for that.. The generics marketed in India are not manufactured with cGMP norms and therapeutic value of these cheap medicine is very mediocre.

And if at all Indians and Indian govt want to bring down the cost of healthcare, should not they also bring down fees of doctors as well who charge heftily?? A general physician in cities charge 300 inr as fees and medicine sometimes is of merely 100 rupess...
Even in villages, docs charge 100 rupees as fees.. Why not question them...

If you want new gen. quality medicines, scientist need to do hard word and huge research for that... These medicine wont come for cheap.. and nobody gonna do the charity thats for sure....

Regards

Shrikant Parwate (thats me)
Project manager (regulator affairs)
Mylan Labs Ltd. Hyderabad (Mylan 2nd Largest generic org. in world)


No we are not... We are copy paste models... Till date we Indians have not invented a single NCE (new chemical entity)


You can do that in India where Intellectual rights have no value. but not in US/EU and many countries where patents are respected and protected by law unlike India....


Iindia is the most unfavorable environment for innovating medicine, believe me, I am from this field..


Indian organizations are nothing in front of branded innovators.. apart from Sun Pharma and Dr. Reddy's Lab...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@drunken monk
you have valid point. lets take one by one

1. IPR.
if you read my post carefully..
its not all patent are rejected...authories are not that irresponsible.
Foreign drug makers won 77% of all patents in last 3 years - Livemint
only those cases denied where no incremental improvement is seen. just made to keep patent alive
exa. paracetamol guy patent is going to over .. he added mint flavor with and apply again showing mint will smoother the taste and it will feel g8 to patient now price is double .. those cases being rejected,

its not innovation its a fraud.. a clear fraud...

2.Dirty medicine..
yes ranbaxy is in trouble... but it hapned with all pharma companies..
name one company who can say we never any recall or legal or regularity issue....ple
after daichi takeover their must be some issue which may not able to solve when it was needed.
USFDA audit are one of the best in world.. they approved them before . now if they qualify they wil sell if not then sorry ..
ranbaxy will take care of itself.. and USFDA too both are mature institution.

3. remuneration
every intellectual ability .which can improve huaman/ nature/ environmental life should be respected and paid handsomely.
but their is different between greed and remuneration
your example of software is key.
how many people using ORIGINAL (PATENT) MSICROSOFT OFFICE ? FEW
90% run on piratd one.. (i would not say generic because piracy not legal . genric is)
IPR is precious but human life is more than that any time...

4.cost of healthcare.
dear .. health is major factor due to which peole goes to poverty trap
doctor fees is one example..
he have to take medicine for months ..
if you pay a good doctor rs.300 a month for visit. and as per law and ethics he prescribe you a appropriate generic
medicine which cost half of the cost of branded .. he can save much more for 2-3 month course.

5.hardwork and medicine
a scientist who invested penicillin and polo did not patent it.. are they mad .. no
they know what to value more..
think of case if it was patent how many life gone in it ..
cost cycle of new molecule and medicine is costly ..agreed.
it hard work and pain which most of time result in to disappoints.. only few succeed... bravo to all those
but you have balance profit and public health..

6. charity...
no company does charity.. why mylan came to india.. because india is hub of generic
even usa save billions from generic use.
best talent of pharma and raw material - API from india and china available here..
so no bayer.. mylan no indian company doing any charity .. its all money
even NGOs dont do charity .. they mean business but in different format ..

7. new molecule.
india did not invented single molecule .. i dont know may be .. yes
but what wrong in copy past if its under regularity mechanism and legal as per wto , world trade rules?

8.IPR
indian is country were IPR is honour highest level
please read my link (mint one ) in this section.
in defense , health , we import billion of dollars but we never copies illegally.. any Su30 or any medicine
if you have proof that india did illegally please post
exa. ple serach china and ipr you will get answer.

9.indian organization
yes. indian org is behind..
i already mentioned why..
most companies are from US ,UK, and Europe.
they faught wars , they started industry way ahead by colonizing other countries .
they had early moving advantage.. now we are catching.
in less than 60 yrs you yourself name 2 companies which can be named ( not compete ) in front of giants
they are trying to develop molecule so i think glenmark too..

 

[drunken-monke]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@drunken monk
you have valid point. lets take one by one

1. IPR.
if you read my post carefully..
its not all patent are rejected...authories are not that irresponsible.
Foreign drug makers won 77% of all patents in last 3 years - Livemint
only those cases denied where no incremental improvement is seen. just made to keep patent alive
exa. paracetamol guy patent is going to over .. he added mint flavor with and apply again showing mint will smoother the taste and it will feel g8 to patient now price is double .. those cases being rejected,

its not innovation its a fraud.. a clear fraud...

2.Dirty medicine..
yes ranbaxy is in trouble... but it hapned with all pharma companies..
name one company who can say we never any recall or legal or regularity issue....ple
after daichi takeover their must be some issue which may not able to solve when it was needed.
USFDA audit are one of the best in world.. they approved them before . now if they qualify they wil sell if not then sorry ..
ranbaxy will take care of itself.. and USFDA too both are mature institution.

3. remuneration
every intellectual ability .which can improve huaman/ nature/ environmental life should be respected and paid handsomely.
but their is different between greed and remuneration
your example of software is key.
how many people using ORIGINAL (PATENT) MSICROSOFT OFFICE ? FEW
90% run on piratd one.. (i would not say generic because piracy not legal . genric is)
IPR is precious but human life is more than that any time...

4.cost of healthcare.
dear .. health is major factor due to which peole goes to poverty trap
doctor fees is one example..
he have to take medicine for months ..
if you pay a good doctor rs.300 a month for visit. and as per law and ethics he prescribe you a appropriate generic
medicine which cost half of the cost of branded .. he can save much more for 2-3 month course.

5.hardwork and medicine
a scientist who invested penicillin and polo did not patent it.. are they mad .. no
they know what to value more..
think of case if it was patent how many life gone in it ..
cost cycle of new molecule and medicine is costly ..agreed.
it hard work and pain which most of time result in to disappoints.. only few succeed... bravo to all those
but you have balance profit and public health..

6. charity...
no company does charity.. why mylan came to india.. because india is hub of generic
even usa save billions from generic use.
best talent of pharma and raw material - API from india and china available here..
so no bayer.. mylan no indian company doing any charity .. its all money
even NGOs dont do charity .. they mean business but in different format ..

7. new molecule.
india did not invented single molecule .. i dont know may be .. yes
but what wrong in copy past if its under regularity mechanism and legal as per wto , world trade rules?

8.IPR
indian is country were IPR is honour highest level
please read my link (mint one ) in this section.
in defense , health , we import billion of dollars but we never copies illegally.. any Su30 or any medicine
if you have proof that india did illegally please post
exa. ple serach china and ipr you will get answer.

9.indian organization
yes. indian org is behind..
i already mentioned why..
most companies are from US ,UK, and Europe.
they faught wars , they started industry way ahead by colonizing other countries .
they had early moving advantage.. now we are catching.
in less than 60 yrs you yourself name 2 companies which can be named ( not compete ) in front of giants
they are trying to develop molecule so i think glenmark too..

Your post is excellent, but i will respond you latter.. At present busy with office work.. But surely respond you since your post is worth sane response...

 

[Daedalus]

And what is the market size of these nations apart from China..

Market size in what term, number of people buying the medicine or revenue generated by these companies?
If its the first then the market size is large, but if its about the later then its not. If you go through my post #23, you will see that India didn't break any international law through this verdict.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Sure they don't understand your and mine point.. Anything novel has to be funded and the people involved with it has to be paid with...


You don't understand his point... The real thing is, India is largest hub for generic medicine research.... not for innovation... one 2 NCE are in pipeline of whole Indian drug industry... Don't spread lies like congress...


Indian market does not contribute much to bayers revenue.. It is less than 4 % of its total revenue...


Docs are always greedy.. Go through my previous post


These companies have applied in India for patents, but the laws and systems here are really unfavorable... Patents are not granted/cleared for years and years.. whats the point in that?

---------------
1. New molecule, cost,
No one is denied of it.
its g8 work pharma guys are doing ...
but again for whom you are working for .. that matters.
if you want to care only reach in europe ple do it.
dont come to india..
if you are in india.. play by our rules which are as per international treaty ( Compulsory licening allowed as per WTO .. india is 1st country to do it.. )

2.cost of medicine in usa
if generic cost more than indian branded... in usa then that govt should take care.
its like petrol wil cost rs 35 /lit if other 35 tax is removed..
who wil remove tax.and other added cost.. govt.

3. bayer and india
india and china are rising both in term of PPP financial and population.
indian govt is still low on health allocation in budget means more can be done .. means more business.
US is largest market and will remain but japan is going down..so the europe.
china have huge IPR issue.they even copy russian the other super power.. think about others then.. .. even fake apple store .. right
we respect IPR so follow international norms ...go as per judicial procdure
there are many companies who can substitute bayer..
how many nation can substitute india?

Your post is excellent, but i will respond you latter.. At present busy with office work.. But surely respond you since your post is worth sane response...

thanks..
respond as per your time
all we need to have a better deal
for both
who made hard work to invent it and whom it needed the most..

Nope... All generics are based on the expired exclusivity.. once NCE patent gets expired there might few other patents, but if exclusivity is expired on can launch generic version


Nope... PEPFAR (presidents emergency plan for anti retrovials)... go through this term.. USA buys these medicine and supply these to Africa... These medicine have high quality unlike which are supplied directly to these nations from India...



Why not ask doctors first to reduce the fees allover India??? That would bring down cost of healthcare....


Exactly the way innovators act.. you are absolutely correct...

-----------
1. Medicine to africa
you mean indian medicine generally i think cipla don't follow international practice which in case applicable to PEPFAR?

2. Doctor fees
yes.. its imp issue.
i saw many doc taking heafy fees.
but it complicated matter.
fees many ways depend upon, specialization , location, his treatment effect, so on
but their should be some guideline from ministry or MCI ..is there any?
please do post if anyone knows.

3. Innovatos act
Druken monke can you brief on this ..

 

[Daedalus]

And if at all Indians and Indian govt want to bring down the cost of healthcare, should not they also bring down fees of doctors as well who charge heftily?? A general physician in cities charge 300 inr as fees and medicine sometimes is of merely 100 rupess...
Even in villages, docs charge 100 rupees as fees.. Why not question them...

Shrikant sir, doctors have to study for 5 and half years just to graduate, then 3 years PG after that we charge 300 inr for a diagnosis and after those 9 years without earning much, you are saying that diagnosis should be free cause the medications cost less than that, then i don't know what i should say.
Can you give us a model where will can charge less and still maintain our private practise, paying all our employees salary (General Duty Assistants, Nurses, watchmen. etc), the rents and the taxes.

2. Doctor fees
yes.. its imp issue.
i saw many doc taking heafy fees.
but it complicated matter.
fees many ways depend upon, specialization , location, his treatment effect, so on
but their should be some guideline from ministry or MCI ..is there any?
please do post if anyone knows.

1.8 Payment of Professional Services: The physician, engaged in the practice of medicine shall give priority to the interests of patients. The personal financial interests of a physician should not conflict with the medical interests of patients. A physician should announce his fees before rendering service and not after the operation or treatment is under way. Remuneration received for such services should be in the form and amount specifically announced to the patient at the time the service is rendered. It is unethical to enter into a contract of "no cure no payment". Physician rendering service on behalf of the state shall refrain from anticipating or accepting any consideration.

I don't think anywhere in the world the gov. specifies how much the physician should charge for their service. And yes MCI do have a guideline that we have to follow.

Code of Medical Ethics Regulations, 2002

 

[pursuit of happiness]

i am a doctor.....n i wud suggest that u visit govt. Hospitals instead of visiting private practitioners whom u think overcharge...
n please refrain from commenting on things that u r not aware of....

---
actually..
all doctors come from same stable.. the govt hospital( now a days people coming from russia and ukrain with medical degrees)
some go got pvt practices some work in govt..
you can best doct in gov hospital (does not mean private are not)
but its , time taken ,load of patient, painful process, delay take toll of common patient which then goes to 300 rs guy whom he can meet hasel free most of the time that almost free consultation from same competence guy .
(note: sometime in gov hospital trainees do take toll of patient too.. more than private ones)

its different service to different guy.. its balance between choice (if patient have )price., time , affordability
but many private doc who charge heavy fees do visit govt /charitable hospital on peanut fees that also a fact.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Shrikant sir, doctors have to study for 5 and half years just to graduate, then 3 years PG after that we charge 300 inr for a diagnosis and after those 9 years without earning much, you are saying that diagnosis should be free cause the medications cost less than that, then i don't know what i should say.
Can you give us a model where will can charge less and still maintain our private practise, paying all our employees salary (General Duty Assistants, Nurses, watchmen. etc), the rents and the taxes.





I don't think anywhere in the world the gov. specifies how much the physician should charge for their service. And yes MCI do have a guideline that we have to follow.

Code of Medical Ethics Regulations, 2002

---
thanks for replying for code of medical ethics

1. Fees
Fees is just one issue.
we dont have many doctors graduating -MBBS . then PG is still
lower seats.
we need to expand our medical education sector so that many good quality institution can chrun out doc - degree and pg
which removes abnormal ration fo doc./ population ratio which is not as per international standards.

if there less supply deemand will be more and so the cost.
same rule apply for doc too..

yes doctors input /output ratio is skewed .. but doctors in india spend less time than international standard than others for studies.
"The period between entering a medical college and getting the licence to practice will increase from five and a half years to six and a quarter years. However, at this stage, it is important to get an international perspective. German and Brazilian medical students require six years to graduate, while their American and Thai counterparts require seven years. South African students can practise only after eight years of training. It is clear from this that the Indian MBBS doctor has a shorter training period than many high- and middle-income countries. "
indian express - 15 aug 2013

so we have balance both doctors and patient right/responsibility..

 

[Daedalus]

---
thanks for replying for code of medical ethics

1. Fees
Fees is just one issue.
we dont have many doctors graduating -MBBS . then PG is still
lower seats.
we need to expand our medical education sector so that many good quality institution can chrun out doc - degree and pg
which removes abnormal ration fo doc./ population ratio which is not as per international standards.

if there less supply deemand will be more and so the cost.
same rule apply for doc too..

yes doctors input /output ratio is skewed .. but doctors in india spend less time than international standard than others for studies.
"The period between entering a medical college and getting the licence to practice will increase from five and a half years to six and a quarter years. However, at this stage, it is important to get an international perspective. German and Brazilian medical students require six years to graduate, while their American and Thai counterparts require seven years. South African students can practise only after eight years of training. It is clear from this that the Indian MBBS doctor has a shorter training period than many high- and middle-income countries. "
indian express - 15 aug 2013

so we have balance both doctors and patient right/responsibility..

I agree with you on some parts and disagree on few.
The medical education system in India is as good as it gets, thats why we have so many good doctors here. I dont know about other countries but in america there is no such thing as MBBS, after completing 5 years and clearing all USMLE stages they go for residency, that makes it 8 years all together. In india we take 8 and half years to get the same level. MCI follows international standard of medical educations, thats why all south asian countries use our syllabus.

 

[skysthelimit]

To All this hue and cry let me contribute something...
Since I am a Pharmacist (RND scientist), before putting my view in front of all, you need to understand the life cycle of Medicine... Please go through my post completely...

When a Innovator company like Bayer Pharmaceuticals start with 500/1000 chemical molecules then they end up successfully with final 1/2 molecules.. The development phase of these medicine is about 15-16 years.. More if some complex tech is involved... Clinical trials alone can be financially very painful... It requires about 1.5 to 2 billion USD for development. These medicines are then patented in US/EU/Japan.. In India Patent laws are not followed.. Compulsory licensing is done in India... The company would suffer the economic losses due to this.. remember nobody invest for charity.

About manufacturing cost- The cost include cost of Raw materials, machinery, change parts which are required for mfg and packing, Environment of manufacturing (include HEPA filters and special air conditioning. raw material and finished product quality testing can be very expensive, stability of finished product has to be tested for 3 months accelerated and 24 months for long term which is a costly affair...

medicine Invention/manufacturing is not a dhaba sort of thing which happens in domestic small scale mfg companies.. beleive me I have worked there as well.. hence if a organization gives highest quality medicine it will charge accordingly.. Just go through the article named Dirty medicine about Ranbaxy Ltd. you will come to know the reality of these generic giants...

Dirty medicine - Fortune Features

Tell me all you chair warriors, why many if not all pay highly to softwares??? Isn't that these softwares mfg cost is very low?? only cost of CD!!!! Then why you pay so much high?? Well because you pay for their intellectual efforts.. same is like here in Medicine... We pharmacist are majorly postgraduate (M.Pharm/MS/M.Tech) or doctorate (PhD) holders. Shouldn't we should get paid for our efforts??

About generics, you don't have any idea about generics in US/EU. generics should be therapeutically equivalent branded Reference listed drugs.. Do we have that system in India??? Have government done health insurance of us?? we use 1.4% of our GDP on healthcare contrary to 5% of other nations.. Dont blame pharma industries for that.. The generics marketed in India are not manufactured with cGMP norms and therapeutic value of these cheap medicine is very mediocre.

And if at all Indians and Indian govt want to bring down the cost of healthcare, should not they also bring down fees of doctors as well who charge heftily?? A general physician in cities charge 300 inr as fees and medicine sometimes is of merely 100 rupess...
Even in villages, docs charge 100 rupees as fees.. Why not question them...

If you want new gen. quality medicines, scientist need to do hard word and huge research for that... These medicine wont come for cheap.. and nobody gonna do the charity thats for sure....

Regards

Shrikant Parwate (thats me)
Project manager (regulator affairs)
Mylan Labs Ltd. Hyderabad (Mylan 2nd Largest generic org. in world)

A lot of standard pharma (and movie & music) industry propaganda - but ultimately filled with BS.

I agree that Pharmaceutical firms spend a lot of money (Billions) on R&D, and only 4-5% of their molecules ever see production. The percentages of blockbusters are even lower. But that does not justify them charging $60,000 for a medicine or claiming that their medicines are only meant for rich people.

Bayer currently has thousands of drugs in the market - any molecule that they produce effectively earns them revenue in perpetuity, even after patents expire and generics flood the market. This is because firms like Bayer have a brand name, and there are many patients who will buy more expensive branded drugs against cheaper generics. So the argument that generics damage pharma profits is complete crap. This has been shown by decades of growing revenue numbers for big pharma.

Similarly, the argument that compulsory licensing and similar patient-friendly acts will "limit innovation" is another lie - most of the high drug prices go towards paying the high salaries of the big pharma management (Mr Marjin Dekkers earned 6 Million Euros in salary in 2012). Their ongoing revenue is more than enough to support R&D costs - the $60K range prices are only meant to provide what we managers called supernormal profits for the shareholders. And if the threat of limiting innovation was true, these companies would have stopped selling drugs in India decades ago - I haven't seen that happening. Have you?

For years, big pharma has also been trying to take advantage of the weaknesses in the patent regime to earn supernormal profits. They would try to get patents for methods or ideas instead of actual molecules, sneak in new patents for virtually identical molecules to extend patent coverage without doing new research, etc. Pharmas have also colluded to deliberately limit supply of raw materials to prevent the manufacture of out-of-patent generics. The Indian government - otherwise supremely incompetent - have been very proactive in this regard, and have successfully resisted selling out to the big businesses in the area of intellectual property (unlike US & EU). For this, I and the many poor people of India are truly grateful.

Most of the rest of your comment is useless filler - medical costs in India (even including doctors’ fees and the overcharging Apollo’s and Fortis') are among the lowest in the world, not the least because drug costs are low. This is in stark contrast to the western markets - the US has so many issues with Medicare and Health Insurance costs because of their absurdly high product prices. For example, recently a hospital in North Carolina charged a patient $89,000 for $750 snakebite anti-venom.
SnakeBite Causes $89,000 Hospital Bill for North Carolina Couple | TIME.com

This is what the Bayer CEO wants to turn India into.

And the most important fact remains is that when you work in medicines and pharmaceuticals, if you look at your drugs only as an avenue to earn money and build your next bungalow, then you will be considered by everyone as a insub-human greedy b--tard. In this field, you have a responsibility yo care about human life and well-being and this is what Mr Dekker and you don't seem to understand. You don't care if patients with cancer, aids or other life threatening illnesses live or die, if their families go bankrupt trying to save their lives, you only care if your bank accounts are adequately padded or not. You are cribbing so much because the Indian government won't allow you to do that.

So excuse me if I don't sympathise and also if I make sure to avoid all drugs made by Mylan Labs going forward.

Cheers.

 

[drunken-monke]

Market size in what term, number of people buying the medicine or revenue generated by these companies?
If its the first then the market size is large, but if its about the later then its not. If you go through my post #23, you will see that India didn't break any international law through this verdict.

Worlds largest markets are US, Japan, EU and Australia.. Rest other nations are nothing.. Even mighty china who is power house of bulk drug mfg is not a great market believe me...