Despite frantic effort by Lockheed Martin India ditches F-21 for LCA

[Dalit]

Only a fool would underestimate American hardware. Their marketing SOPs are such that their products normally perform as advertised; anybody who have exposure to IT-related business would tell as much.

Do you really think that Americans know nothing about the magical Rafale? They know everything about it, and this is why they offered a better product in F-21 to India. However, defense-related procurements have both technical and political underpinnings; Pros and Cons are weighed accordingly. Same is true for Pakistan as well.

JF-17 was a political decision, and it paid off.

Agreed. Pros and cons and political considerations always lead to choices.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Is it really economics because India claims to have an incredible amount of cash? At least that is the impression we always get during our interaction with most Indian members on PDF. India is able to buy anything and everything at any given moment. Now you are telling us something entirely different.

LCA won't match F-21 and even you know it.

We have the money, and we know where we want to spend it. Not on shiny new toys.

 

[LeGenD]

Bruh, i hate to disagree, but I think the Rafale is every bit as competent as the F21. The only advantage of F21 vs the Rafale is the claimed "5th gen tech" which is a pretty shallow statement. The main thing that makes a 5th gen tech is stealth and the airframe for F21 is pretty much the same as F16, so how can it be stealthier?

No, it isn't.

Rafale is on the level of F-16 Block 60.

On strictly technical grounds, an Indian report found F-16 Block 70/72 to be superior to French Rafale and actively lobbied for its procurement. However, Indian higher-ups did not sign up for it, and Lockheed Martin then offered F-21, and now this decision.

Technicalities are [one of the] considerations for defense-related procurements, never a whole. Indians higher-ups appear to be satisfied with what Rafale offer to them, and other comforts. So it will do.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That sounds like a good face saving excuse.

Let's take the Indian word. The Indians claim that LCA is a good fighter. That means they have more trust in LCA than the F-21.

No.

India has more trust on the money required to be spent on the LCA bringing in good returns than on the money spent on the F-21 bringing in good returns.

The F-21 is a much better fighter. That no longer matters.

Our services are NOT encouraged to go for whatever their minds desire; it is time to focus their attention on what can be done locally, and time to focus the attention of local industry on what they can do for the services.

 

[PakFactor]

Hi,

If India buys the F35---then better say good by to your sovereignty for good---. Then you will become the US errand boy---.

Indian establishment learned the cost of being American friend and fighting its wars just by looking over its shoulder west. I have yet to this day not see any fruit of American friend ship (besides the orgasm PAF has over F-16 that to after being force fed soybeans) — unless your Anglo-Saxon white and blue eyed you don’t get anything.

 

[Dalit]

Indian establishment learned the cost of being American friend and fighting its wars just by looking over its shoulder west. I have yet to this day not seen any fruit of American friend ship (besides the orgasm PAF has over F-16 that to after being force fed soybeans) — unless your Anglo-Saxon white and blue eyed you don’t get anything.

It is a BIG lesson for Pakistan. We need to learn from this Indian approach. India which is offered all the goodies weighs all pros and cons before making any decisions. There is a big lesson here.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In other words, the American 5th gen claim is not taken seriously by India. It is very simple. From your words it is easy to conclude that India believes that F-21 is not as good as the Americans have advertised it.

Lockheed Martin hype was discounted almost as soon as it was generated. The F-21 is a superior design, but not that much better than the Rafale, for instance. Even the Rafale does not appear to be an attractive proposition today in view of the need to direct our funding to the to the best returns.

You keep saying that, but the Indian officials don't say this. The Indians believe that LCA is a good fighter. Probably as good as F-21. It is about comparing the fighters.

No Indian official in his right mind will say such a thing. That is not the issue at all; it is about ROI. It is about independence of actions.

 

[PakFactor]

It is a BIG lesson for Pakistan. We need to learn from this Indian approach. India which is offered all the goods weighs all pros and cons before making any decisions. There is a big lesson here.

Hope so bro one would think after 50 years you’d learn but after 9/11 they got bent over for 18 years more.

 

[Robin rone]

Only a fool would underestimate American hardware. Their marketing SOPs are such that their products normally perform as advertised; anybody who have exposure to IT-related business would tell as much.

Do you really think that Americans know nothing about the magical Rafale? They know everything about it, and this is why they offered a better product in F-21 to India. However, defense-related procurements have both technical and political underpinnings; Pros and Cons are weighed accordingly. Same is true for Pakistan as well.

JF-17 was a political decision, and it paid off.

U guys don't get it, they just stalling they already have 400 4th gen fighter's adding 112 new 4 gen( for 20 bil dollars) keep them from getting 5 the gen tec, IAF know their defense PSU can't make decent 5 the gen, they only have tec ability to make a Mediocre 4th gen, so they will use covid19 as reason to pish the deal timeline to 2024-25 time frame and ask LM to offer f35 during that time China improve their military capability and US forced to sell f35 to India for regional support, think China getting parity with US in military and only way US can win any confrontation is to get a regional proxy ( India ) to fight for them so selling f35 to India will always right move,

 

[LeGenD]

U guys don't get it, they just stalling they already have 400 4th gen fighter's adding 112 new 4 gen( for 20 bil dollars) keep them from getting 5 the gen tec, IAF know their defense PSU can't make decent 5 the gen, they only have tec ability to make a Mediocre 4th gen, so they will use covid19 as reason to pish the deal timeline to 2024-25 time frame and ask LM to offer f35 during that time China improve their military capability and US forced to sell f35 to India for regional support, think China getting parity with US in military and only way US can win any confrontation is to get a regional proxy ( India ) to fight for them so selling f35 to India will always right move,

Political underpinnings in short.

This sound like a political gamble. Not sure if it will work out because S-400 is in the picture.

 

[Trango Towers]

F-16 Block 70/72 and F-21 are two different aircraft. Block 70/72 is arguably the most advanced aircraft in its class already (numerous satisfied customers as of late). F-21 was supposed to be an even bigger leap with no competitor in its class.

India does not have the technical prowess and knowhow to match these two birds in local capacity. Even with sourced parts, a local product cannot match American 5th generation class parts and designs.

Nevertheless, big relief for Pakistan.

Mestankhan git an opportunity to attack PAF again and it's never a missed opportunity. If indians really so smart why has it taken them 40 plus years to come up with an aircraft when they have a in house jet manufacturing capability since the HAL Murat and KURT TANK the nazi genius.
Tejas is not even close to f16 block 50 let alose block 70 or the f21
I think we in Pakistan should celebrate the indian selection. And Pakistan's best friend is DRDO

 

[Suriya]

Indians didn't go for it because Pakistan has decades of experience on this fighter jet. 2nd thing is rightfully pointed out by @MastanKhan that like PAF, IAF doesn't want to be bound by the scrutiny and checks that come with the American equipment. At anytime Americans would have imposed sanctions over anything and IAF would have to suffer because of it. Sigh of relief for PAF as india still doesn't have any credible BVR solution against them. F-21 would have nullified our advantage.

Rafale is coming this July with Meteor onboard.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I agree. The IAF has weighed all pros and cons before going for LCA. That credit goes to India. Obviously politics was also a major consideration. American hardware always comes with strings attached. Indian officials won't say this too loud, but this is always in the back of your mind whilst buying hardware from Uncle Sam.

And, Uncle is now angry more than ever before...

 

[ARMalik]

We do not want to be technology-dependent idiots. Does that say anywhere that we should go around preaching this message of self-reliance to others?

Whatever the reason for this decision, good luck to india.

 

[JamD]

No.

India has more trust on the money required to be spent on the LCA bringing in good returns than on the money spent on the F-21 bringing in good returns.

The F-21 is a much better fighter. That no longer matters.

Our services are NOT encouraged to go for whatever their minds desire; it is time to focus their attention on what can be done locally, and time to focus the attention of local industry on what they can do for the services.

This is probably the best news for the LCA program and in general the Indian aerospace industry. LCA in its current shape may not be a spectacular aircraft (albeit a good aircraft) but its large scale production, and evolution will be worth much more than any F21. If I were a Pakistani planner I would be unsettled by the possibility of large numbers of LCA and its future evolutions across the border doing for the IAF what the JF17 does for the PAF. It is no secret that India can afford to out produce the JF17 if there was the will to do so.