Demolition of the Babri Mosque

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Jana,

I am not interested discussing contentious issues that have no solutions except making one feel that one has done his bit for his religion or his country, as some feel!

To me, it is bogus and deceitful and not facing the truth!

And quit this nonsense of me derailing anything. I only respond. Get those guys who do it and get off my back. I dislike being blamed for no reason and indeed if I am at fault indicate where I started this nonsense and I will readily accept it and apologise!

I don't stand on any high pedestal!

You all start it and when things get inconvenient and can't stand the heat, you either declare it irrelevant to the thread or get ballistic and blame. If you caught the bull by the horn as also been equitable, I or anyone will have no complaints or heartburns.

Yes, no class is sanctioned in Islam. Then why is it flaunted with such pride? Answer that before you go smearing others and pretend holier than thou!!

Hatred is not the answer to PEACE!

India and Pakistan is moving towards amity. Help is what is wanted and not dissensions on stupid issues, which are debated with total bigotry and without knowledge like children in the KG or illiterates.

Salim,
I completely understand the point you are making here. In discussions about Islam and violence for example(on another Western blog), a lot of times the discussion would veer off into comparisons between the violent and vengeful biblical God, and that of the Quran. But I always thought that there was no purpose served with such exchanges, and would discontinue the discussion. As much as I hated the cherry picking of verses out of context to make the point that Islam was inherently violent, some people asked the question respectfully, being misinformed, with a desire to become better informed, and cognizant of the fact that such sweeping generalizations do not have truth to them. Those could be shown the contextual basis of such verses, and they understood.

Then there were the ones who cam in shrieking and holding aloft burning crosses - "All Muslims are terrorists, Islam is a violent cult!" - then came the endless jumble of cut and paste verses and Hadith. Barely time to reply to one set, and on we go with the next page of cut and paste ignorance. And of course next came the deluge of cut and paste biblical verses to prove that Christianity was just as violent. End of any civil discourse.

How I wish that the moderators could have taken more interest in getting rid, or warning, of the generalizations and stereotyping, because people wanted to respond, those questioning were eager to learn.

For that reason, and based on those experiences, it would be far better to simply report those posts that generalize (Pakistani or Indian. Hindu or Muslim), and continue with the discussion, and negate the incorrect assumptions or impressions.

I almost dread going into threads with particular titles anymore, certain that the discussion has been reduced to the type of back and forth I described.

Can the senior members at least attempt to give such an approach a chance?

And to some of the Muslim members:

Perhaps it would be less offensive to the non-Muslim members if, when you post contentious or "negative" articles/reports, you clarify that what is being presented in no way is reflective of all people belonging to the school of thought that you wish to discuss.
Treat them as you would wish to be treated.

 

[Spring Onion]

I am reading thru all the post I can deduce one thing Only Hindus are bad.
Why do you all see condemnation of Modi government who was not able to curb riots properly ? Why was BJP defeated in most of the states and Center ?

No one is saying that Hindus entirely or for that matter all the Hinuds are bad or even Hinuds are bad.

rather we are discussing some bad things that are part of your society as much as any other society would have.

One of these is cast systen in Hindusim and i wish any of you one day come with acceptance that indeed Cast system is a black spot on indian society which needs to be done away with.

I do not know how many of you are upper cast hindus but being educated atleast you guys should condemn the cast system and mishandling of lower cast hindus under this system be in any shap.
unless the Indian government which is all democratic makes a law in this regard and implement it in true spirit this issue will continue to haunt low cast hindus.

 

[Contrarian]

No one is saying that Hindus entirely or for that matter all the Hinuds are bad or even Hinuds are bad.

rather we are discussing some bad things that are part of your society as much as any other society would have.

One of these is cast systen in Hindusim and i wish any of you one day come with acceptance that indeed Cast system is a black spot on indian society which needs to be done away with.

I do not know how many of you are upper cast hindus but being educated atleast you guys should condemn the cast system and mishandling of lower cast hindus under this system be in any shap.
unless the Indian government which is all democratic makes a law in this regard and implement it in true spirit this issue will continue to haunt low cast hindus.

Why? Why do you call the cast system in Hinduism bad? I am a Brahmin that you are demonstrating here to be the evil that runs India. I dont find the cast system bad, i am proud to be a Brahmin, but never does that mean that i detest or think of those of other castes as being lower than me. This fact does not even cross my mind about castes when im with my friends who are SC/ST. Those belonging to other castes should be proud of their castes, but not degrade others, or treat others of differently, that is the essence.

The way that many people of upper castes think of lower castes people as being inferior is what is bad, not the system. Do you know the caste system evolved according to the jobs people did in ancient India? The priests became Brahmins, the ruler/warriors were Khastriyas, the Vaishyas were traders and Shudras were the cleaners(im generalising a LOT here so keep that in mind).

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^ Ahh so are you suggesting the caste system is akin to a personal identifier along the lines of "Tribes" or "Biradri" - but not an identification of standing or status in society?

So has it been corrupted, like the biradri system, to discriminate against those considered "lower or different castes"?

The reason I ask is because a very good Indian Hindu friend of mine, went to college with me, has pretty much been depressed for the last year, becasue this nice girl (different caste) he met in the states, was an unacceptable match for his parents (who happen to be quite educated an wealthy businesspeople). Eventually the girl was forced by her father to marry someone else, becasue his parents refused to be convinved.

Obviously just one story, but according to him, such discrimination is widespread, though slowly on the decline, in South India anyway, which is where he hails from.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

No one is saying that Hindus entirely or for that matter all the Hinuds are bad or even Hinuds are bad.

rather we are discussing some bad things that are part of your society as much as any other society would have.

One of these is cast systen in Hindusim and i wish any of you one day come with acceptance that indeed Cast system is a black spot on indian society which needs to be done away with.

I do not know how many of you are upper cast hindus but being educated atleast you guys should condemn the cast system and mishandling of lower cast hindus under this system be in any shap.
unless the Indian government which is all democratic makes a law in this regard and implement it in true spirit this issue will continue to haunt low cast hindus.

What you don't understand, don't write about.

And don't live in denial!

Heed Agnostic.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

^^ Ahh so are you suggesting the caste system is akin to a personal identifier along the lines of "Tribes" or "Biradri" - but not an identification of standing or status in society?

So has it been corrupted, like the biradri system, to discriminate against those considered "lower or different castes"?

The reason I ask is because a very good Indian Hindu friend of mine, went to college with me, has pretty much been depressed for the last year, becasue this nice girl (different caste) he met in the states, was an unacceptable match for his parents (who happen to be quite educated an wealthy businesspeople). Eventually the girl was forced by her father to marry someone else, becasue his parents refused to be convinved.

Obviously just one story, but according to him, such discrimination is widespread, though slowly on the decline, in South India anyway, which is where he hails from.

I agree with you totally.

People of that mindset still exist.

My parents were not, nor am I nor are my children!

We and many like us also form the Indian society!

Can't pick the rotten apples as example for all.

It is like saying that because Mehsud is anti national, all Pahtuns are anti national.

That would show ignorance and much of what is written against India is through ignorance and sheer cussedness!

How would Jana like if I said that she is in a timewrap of medieval times? There are Pashtuns who are and there are many who are not. But to put all in one basket is stupid!

Kahn Abdful Gaffar Khan, a Pashtun, was far ahead of the times. Far ahead of contemporary Hindu or Moslem and yet he was a Pashtun! It would be insulting to compare him with Mehsud!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Then there were the ones who cam in shrieking and holding aloft burning crosses - "All Muslims are terrorists, Islam is a violent cult!"

Precisely!

All cannot be terrorists. Misguided people could be.

If all Moslem were terrorists, then who are those leading the govts of Islamic countries on which the WoT depends?

Simple Logic!

 

[Contrarian]

The reason I ask is because a very good Indian Hindu friend of mine, went to college with me, has pretty much been depressed for the last year, becasue this nice girl (different caste) he met in the states, was an unacceptable match for his parents (who happen to be quite educated an wealthy businesspeople). Eventually the girl was forced by her father to marry someone else, becasue his parents refused to be convinved.

Obviously just one story, but according to him, such discrimination is widespread, though slowly on the decline, in South India anyway, which is where he hails from.

That is true, this is indeed widespread, but is on the decline albeit slowly, takes an entire new generation to change the mindset a little, so these things take a lot of time. But this is true, it does happen quite a lot, especially in conservative families...

Anyways, my point was that the system is being used in a wrong manner. Having castes acc. to me is not wrong, others might differ with my opinion.

 

[Titanium]

'One group of karsevaks blocked all entry points into Ayodhya to keep out central security forces, while another began to loot and burn Muslim homes'

Did the leaders know beforehand what was going to happen that afternoon? There can be no final answer to that question. Perhaps some did, others did not. Certainly one answer seems to emerge from our narrative, another from the likes of editor Chandan Mitra. Not that the leadership of the parivar comes off any better from Mitra's graphic description of their behaviour during that crucial period when the attack on the mosque was mounted -- the giggling political sanyasins, Uma Bharati and Ritambhara; Joshi overcome by the size of the mammoth crowd; Singhal, convinced that the karseva would go along expected lines and giving precise orders, to a crowd that could not care less, about how to wipe and clean the site of the projected temple; the moment of reckoning when the crowd goes berserk on seeing two karsevaks on the top of the domes of the mosque while the high command sat, 'tense', 'sombre-faced', 'hopelessly sullen', with faces like 'grim death'; the lament of Rajendra Singh, the de facto supremo of the RSS, 'the ministry is gone'; and finally the pathetic and belated attempts to calm down the crowd by the leaders taking turn in appealing to the karsevaks, while others like Acharya Dharmendra tried to interest an uninterested crowd in a bhajan.

The high command recovered soon enough, but for Advani who, perhaps sensing the long-term implications of what was happening, wore a 'worried, faraway expression on his face'.


By the time the last of the domes of the Babri Masjid came crashing down at 5.45 pm, scattered spirals of smoke could be seen at a distance. Realising that Muslim houses in the city were being attacked by the karsevaks Ritambhara quickly began to urge the authorities on the public address system to stop the 'Mussalmans from burning their own homes'. She was joined by Dharmendra, who shouted that some 'outlaws' were setting fire to their own huts to make a fast buck and give the innocent karsevaks a bad name. Later, he changed his tune and said to the press that this was the only way in which Ayodhya could become a Vatican for the Hindus.

 

[Titanium]

It may be mentioned that originally CBI had charged 49 persons (Vijay Raje Sindia and Ramchandra Paramhans have died) and out of these 21 had got the proceedings against them to be dropped (May 5, 2001). Thereafter, when CBI filed a revision and the High Court had summoned the entire record and as such the proceedings against the remaining 26 were put in abeyance. This was preceded by an interim order passed in RN Srivastava case (he was District Magistrate of Faizabad in Dec 1992) on Sep 24, 2003 and staying further the proceedings against them. Those 26 persons who had got proceedings stayed against them have been charged under IPC sections 332, 338, 201, 159, 395 and 120-B. RN Srivastava and DB Rai, who was Senior Superintendent of Police, Faizabad in Dec 92 were charged under IPC 153-A, 295, 295 (A), 505, 201 read with 114 IPC. DB. Rai, later became a BJP parliamentarian from Sultanpur, UP.

The 21 accused against whom the notice has been issued are:

Bala Sahab Thakray
Kalyan Singh
Satish Pradhan
Champat Rai Bansal
Lal Krishna Advani
Murli Manohar Joshi
Uma Bharti
Vinay katiyar
Ashok Singhal
Giri Raj Kishore
Sadhavi Ritambara
Vishnu Hari Dalmia
Mahant Aditaya Nath
Ram Vilas Vedanti
Param Hans Ramchanda Das (dead)
Mahamandaleshwar Jagdish
B.L. Sharma ‘Prem’
Mahant Nritya Gopal Das
Dharam Das
Satish Nagar
Moreshwar Save

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Well, if proved in the court, hopefully they shall atone for their deeds.

We can thank our stars that the system still functions wherein alleged wrong doers are exposed and brought into the dock for justice to take its course.

 

[Titanium]

Well, if proved in the court, hopefully they shall atone for their deeds.

We can thank our stars that the system still functions wherein alleged wrong doers are exposed and brought into the dock for justice to take its course.

The Justice system functions only for have-nots

• The courts work overtime to deny Reservations for backward class.
  
• The courts hears on sundays to recommend president rule to dravidian government.
  
• The court function to provide salaries to Doctors who let scores die, during the "equality" strike.
  
• Also the court functions to punish muslims, reacted to their massacres.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Your perception.

It need not be right.

Heard of Ayub Masih, Saint Dominic's Church in Bahawalpur , Rasheed Masih and Salem Masih, Bishop Joseph etc.

I hate to do this, but you leave me with no options, check the site below:

Pakistan

(It comes out as "Pakistan' as above)

But does not mean that the Govt is not trying its best to give an equitable society?

Which country can claim to be perfect?

And twisting facts to serve one's purpose is not the Gospel.

Spreading venom is not the answer!

 

[EagleEyes]

Time to get back on the topic. Demolition of the Babri Mosque.

Thanks.

 

[Titanium]

Salim?

You are a hypocrite by name and also by actions. This is thread about Babri Masjid and I don't need to see what other country is doing.

I have put some facts, deny none of those happened rather than no country is perfect ...pathetic excuse.