Democracy in India is a farce: Dr Amarjit Singh

[KRAIT]

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...resent-3-0-indian-military.html#ixzz2JTHioFNt

A lot of hue and cry was raised over the so-called census of Muslims in Indian Army. After the Sachar panel had hinted that the number of Muslims in the armed forces could be sought, there was opposition from several sections against the proposed headcount on basis of religion.

There is no official report. However, the strength of Muslims is roughly around 3 % and the figure comes around 29,000 in the million-strong Indian army, according to news channel CNN IBN's programme titled Minority Report.

If the number of Muslims serving in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) infantry that has over 50% Muslims and those in other wings not directly dealing with warfare are excluded, the proportion is definitely too low. So out of a Muslim population of nearly 150 million (15 crore), barely 29,000 Muslims were found suitable for Army.

There has been a lot of controversy but these figures don't surprise or sadden me. The fact remains that if competent, a Muslim can rise in India to the highest position in any services including army, and has more chances than any other country.

This is my belief despite all the charges of discrimination, communal riots and experiences of bias. There are Muslim officers serving in Indian army at senior levels. IH Latif rose to the position of Air Chief Marshal.

In communal riots, army has always been welcomed by Hindus and Muslims alike, as the local police is often charged of biases. But army's neutrality remains undisputed. Lately there have been efforts to increase the strength of Muslims and other minorities in army, paramilitary forces and police. These steps will hopefully change the situation.

The Indian Army is an apolitical, professional body that is extremely proud of its dharma of loyalty to the nation and its Constitution. It does not believe in practising discrimination on the basis of religion, caste or colour.


We Don't see religion everywhere like you guys. Its all about Merit.

Obsession with Muslims in India and other parts of the world except yours is your biggest problem.

 

[Albatross]

So if Muslims are not that much in Army does that mean we are not giving them opportunity. You are ignoring that they got Highest Judicial Authority in India.

Muslims have wide representation in Entertainment Industry. Would you say that why there are no Sikhs in Bollywood ?

They have been Captain of Indian Cricket team.

You can ignore all you want. Stop trolling and talk on topic. That is Sikhs in India.

well sports and entertainment are things where 1) one's skill take him on top 2) No govt approval is req to make someone a hero..

But when a PM or a army chief or even a Lt general is appointed Govt approval is req and thats the reason yr hindu dominated govt never approved anything as they think muslims will compromise your security and deep inside you know that but are a coward to accept it...judiciary is an imp organ but not like a premier or an army chief so the division is clear yeah but if someone closes its eyes deliberately and dun wanna see and accept truth what can I do

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...resent-3-0-indian-military.html#ixzz2JTHioFNt

A lot of hue and cry was raised over the so-called census of Muslims in Indian Army. After the Sachar panel had hinted that the number of Muslims in the armed forces could be sought, there was opposition from several sections against the proposed headcount on basis of religion.

There is no official report. However, the strength of Muslims is roughly around 3 % and the figure comes around 29,000 in the million-strong Indian army, according to news channel CNN IBN's programme titled Minority Report.

If the number of Muslims serving in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) infantry that has over 50% Muslims and those in other wings not directly dealing with warfare are excluded, the proportion is definitely too low. So out of a Muslim population of nearly 150 million (15 crore), barely 29,000 Muslims were found suitable for Army.

There has been a lot of controversy but these figures don't surprise or sadden me. The fact remains that if competent, a Muslim can rise in India to the highest position in any services including army, and has more chances than any other country.

This is my belief despite all the charges of discrimination, communal riots and experiences of bias. There are Muslim officers serving in Indian army at senior levels. IH Latif rose to the position of Air Chief Marshal.

In communal riots, army has always been welcomed by Hindus and Muslims alike, as the local police is often charged of biases. But army's neutrality remains undisputed. Lately there have been efforts to increase the strength of Muslims and other minorities in army, paramilitary forces and police. These steps will hopefully change the situation.


We Don't see religion everywhere like you guys. Its all about Merit.

Its about percentage in national assembly give me that figure .As compare to 10% sikhs muslims should be 25 %.
Its about top general ranks in army since 47 give me muslims names as an ordinary sepoy means nothing its a general that counts .how many sikh general were there and how many muslims were there just tell plz

 

[KRAIT]

In Pakistan Muslims kill Muslims in thousands.

We don't want Indian Muslims to kill Pakistani Muslims. Otherwise you all will say Hindu Baniya made Muslim kill Muslim. You are still butt hurt since 1971.


Indian Muslims love peace and harmony. So they sing, dance, act, write books, make movies, win Oscars for India while Hindu and Sikh soldiers protect them as they trusted us.

 

[Windjammer]

You do realize how funny it sounds when a Pakistani talks about Democracy and freedom of Press ?

Don't troll. Both you and me know Muslims got ample representation in India. Its all based on merit. Kalam was choice of both BJP and Congress.

Yea, when there is no other escape then salvage some pride by targeting the messenger.

May i remind you the tall claim of world's biggest democracy is often questioned and busted by your own country fellows....whatever position Pakistan may represent, it can certainly hold it's head high for hosting and honouring it's guests regardless of their caste and creed.

 

[Windjammer]

In Pakistan Muslims kill Muslims in thousands.

We don't want Indian Muslims to kill Pakistani Muslims. Otherwise you all will say Hindu Baniya made Muslim kill Muslim. You are still butt hurt since 1971.


Indian Muslims love peace and harmony. So they sing, dance, act, write books, make movies, win Oscars for India while Hindu and Sikh soldiers protect them as they trusted us.

We saw a prime example of that in Gujarat.....oh let me guess, that was Muslims own fault.

 

[danger007]

Yea, when there is no other escape then salvage some pride by targeting the messenger.

May i remind you the tall claim of world's biggest democracy is often questioned and busted by your own country fellows....whatever position Pakistan may represent, it can certainly hold it's head high for hosting and honouring it's guests regardless of their caste and creed.

so what is your comment about your army general words against kargil and mush????

Yea, when there is no other escape then salvage some pride by targeting the messenger.

May i remind you the tall claim of world's biggest democracy is often questioned and busted by your own country fellows....whatever position Pakistan may represent, it can certainly hold it's head high for hosting and honouring it's guests regardless of their caste and creed.

so what is your comment about your army general words against kargil and mush????

 

[KRAIT]

Yea, when there is no other escape then salvage some pride by targeting the messenger.
May i remind you the tall claim of world's biggest democracy is often questioned and busted by your own country fellows....whatever position Pakistan may represent, it can certainly hold it's head high for hosting and honouring it's guests regardless of their caste and creed.

Guests from the country that behead our soldiers. Itna bura lag raha hai to bula lo. Paise bach jayenge hamare.

 

[KRAIT]

We saw a prime example of that in Gujarat.....oh let me guess, that was Muslims own fault.

I felt a tremendous sense of pride when at an Independence Day function in Pune in 2002 (in the aftermath of the horrible Gujarat riots) Qutubuddin Ansari, the tailor from Ahmedabad who became famous as the face of that tragedy, told me it was the Indian Army's timely arrival that had saved him and his family.

In an emotion choked voice, he said throughout his life he would pray for the success of the Indian Army. Many officers and men have told me how Muslims greeted the army's arrival by showering them with flowers. The army's impartial conduct in quelling riots is a matter of great pride to all soldiers.

'We are an apolitical and secular force'

The Indian Army is a traditional force and many battalions are organised on the basis of regions and caste. Thus we have the Sikh regiment, the Marathas, the Gorkhas etc. But this does not apply at the officer level. So it is no surprise to see a Mohammed Zaki commanding Garhwali troops or a Y N Sharma as commanding officer of the Grenadiers(which incidentally has Muslim soldiers).

As head of the family, which is what a commanding officer is, it is common for Zaki to conduct the puja on Janmashtami, celebrating the birth of Lord Krishna, or for Sharma to lead the namaz on Id Ul Fitr after Ramzan.

Faced with an insurgency in Kashmir that freely uses religion as a motivating factor, the army has has constructed combined prayer halls, called Sarva Dharma Sthal ( All Religion Place of Worship) where you have all the gods and symbols of all religions under one roof. These can be found at in Anantnag in Kashmir and even in Pune.

It is undoubtedly true that the number of Muslims in the Army is less than their proportion in the population. This is a historical legacy as the recruitment of Muslims in the armed forces in pre-Independence India was concentrated in Punjab, North West Frontier and Balochistan, all part of Pakistan today.

A similar argument can be also made on the basis of region. The states of Orissa or Gujarat or even Andhra Pradesh are not represented in proportion to their population. To assume any bias on this basis is to see evil where none exists.

The all-wise Sachar Committee has initiated an exercise that is fraught with great danger as it hits at the very notion of fair play. The basis on which this exercise is being carried out is a book by an American citizen, Omar Khalidi, (Khaki and Ethnic Violence in India). Khalidi works at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States. As a matter of record, he had got in touch with me about two years ago seeking data on the Indian Army. It is another matter that seeing his intention, I and my colleagues refused any cooperation. But he obviously has won over Sachar and party.

We ought to smell a rat when the Sachar Committee approvingly quotes from Khalidi's book and makes it as the basis for its 'work.'

What every soldier finds most objectionable in the exercise is Sachar's notion of equating the armed forces with any other department of the central government. Could Mr Sachar please tell us in which other organisation is dying for the country part of the 'job'?

The committee also had the gall to say that the army made 'unnecessary fuss about this on grounds of regimental spirit and cohesion.' Do the Sachar committee members realise that the two factors -- regimental spirit and cohesion -- are the very soul of any army?

These are the factors that bind soldiers and officers to each other. People sacrifice their lives on the battlefield for the izzat (respect) of the regiment and save their comrades at the risk of their own lives.

Without these an army is merely a mob of armed violent men which would melt at the first sign of danger. When someone terms this as 'frivolous', it betrays a mindset that is not merely stupid, but dangerous.


Finally, a word about desertion during Hyderabad action (in 1948-1949) and Turtuk problem during the Kargil operations in 1999.

During the Hyderabad action, the Indian Army was in process of division between India and Pakistan on grounds of religion. To call these acts as desertion would label the entire Pakistani army as 'deserters.'

During the Kargil operations, the small population of Turtuk area was a complex issue. This area, right till 1971, was part of Pakistan and was captured during that war. The area had many ex-soldiers of the Pakistani army, still receiving pension. To expect them to become pro-India was not fair. So what was proposed (possibly) during the Kargil war, was not evacuation of Muslims, but evacuation of ex-Pakistanis from a sensitive battle zone. Are there any such reports regarding the Muslim population of Kargil, Dras etc?

Many former and serving soldiers believe that this data collection is the thin end of the wedge of introducing religion or caste-based reservations in the armed forces.


The Sachar Committee's bias has been clearly shown by their reliance on foreign research. It is time the government prohibits the Sachar Committee from dealing with the armed forces.

This does not mean that the government should not ask the army to conduct an exercise as to why the proportion of Muslims or Christians or Gujaratis is less in the armed forces.

Finally a counter question to the Sachar Committee: What is the proportion of Muslim employees in Muslim-owned companies like ? If it is less than their proportion in population, do we take it that the Muslim owners of these companies are also against the minorities?

Is there no limit to 'vote bank' politics, for the sake of which a government is prepared to destroy the efficiency and cohesion of its armed forces and jeopardise the nation's security?

Muslims in the Army: A dangerous census

BTW Indian Army full of Hindus and Sikhs saved Bengali Muslims from Pakistani Muslims who were raping and killing in Millions.

 

[Ayush]

I felt a tremendous sense of pride when at an Independence Day function in Pune in 2002 (in the aftermath of the horrible Gujarat riots) Qutubuddin Ansari, the tailor from Ahmedabad who became famous as the face of that tragedy, told me it was the Indian Army's timely arrival that had saved him and his family.

In an emotion choked voice, he said throughout his life he would pray for the success of the Indian Army. Many officers and men have told me how Muslims greeted the army's arrival by showering them with flowers. The army's impartial conduct in quelling riots is a matter of great pride to all soldiers.

'We are an apolitical and secular force'

The Indian Army is a traditional force and many battalions are organised on the basis of regions and caste. Thus we have the Sikh regiment, the Marathas, the Gorkhas etc. But this does not apply at the officer level. So it is no surprise to see a Mohammed Zaki commanding Garhwali troops or a Y N Sharma as commanding officer of the Grenadiers(which incidentally has Muslim soldiers).

As head of the family, which is what a commanding officer is, it is common for Zaki to conduct the puja on Janmashtami, celebrating the birth of Lord Krishna, or for Sharma to lead the namaz on Id Ul Fitr after Ramzan.

Faced with an insurgency in Kashmir that freely uses religion as a motivating factor, the army has has constructed combined prayer halls, called Sarva Dharma Sthal ( All Religion Place of Worship) where you have all the gods and symbols of all religions under one roof. These can be found at in Anantnag in Kashmir and even in Pune.

It is undoubtedly true that the number of Muslims in the Army is less than their proportion in the population. This is a historical legacy as the recruitment of Muslims in the armed forces in pre-Independence India was concentrated in Punjab, North West Frontier and Balochistan, all part of Pakistan today.

A similar argument can be also made on the basis of region. The states of Orissa or Gujarat or even Andhra Pradesh are not represented in proportion to their population. To assume any bias on this basis is to see evil where none exists.

The all-wise Sachar Committee has initiated an exercise that is fraught with great danger as it hits at the very notion of fair play. The basis on which this exercise is being carried out is a book by an American citizen, Omar Khalidi, (Khaki and Ethnic Violence in India). Khalidi works at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States. As a matter of record, he had got in touch with me about two years ago seeking data on the Indian Army. It is another matter that seeing his intention, I and my colleagues refused any cooperation. But he obviously has won over Sachar and party.

We ought to smell a rat when the Sachar Committee approvingly quotes from Khalidi's book and makes it as the basis for its 'work.'

What every soldier finds most objectionable in the exercise is Sachar's notion of equating the armed forces with any other department of the central government. Could Mr Sachar please tell us in which other organisation is dying for the country part of the 'job'?

The committee also had the gall to say that the army made 'unnecessary fuss about this on grounds of regimental spirit and cohesion.' Do the Sachar committee members realise that the two factors -- regimental spirit and cohesion -- are the very soul of any army?

These are the factors that bind soldiers and officers to each other. People sacrifice their lives on the battlefield for the izzat (respect) of the regiment and save their comrades at the risk of their own lives.

Without these an army is merely a mob of armed violent men which would melt at the first sign of danger. When someone terms this as 'frivolous', it betrays a mindset that is not merely stupid, but dangerous.


Finally, a word about desertion during Hyderabad action (in 1948-1949) and Turtuk problem during the Kargil operations in 1999.

During the Hyderabad action, the Indian Army was in process of division between India and Pakistan on grounds of religion. To call these acts as desertion would label the entire Pakistani army as 'deserters.'

During the Kargil operations, the small population of Turtuk area was a complex issue. This area, right till 1971, was part of Pakistan and was captured during that war. The area had many ex-soldiers of the Pakistani army, still receiving pension. To expect them to become pro-India was not fair. So what was proposed (possibly) during the Kargil war, was not evacuation of Muslims, but evacuation of ex-Pakistanis from a sensitive battle zone. Are there any such reports regarding the Muslim population of Kargil, Dras etc?

Many former and serving soldiers believe that this data collection is the thin end of the wedge of introducing religion or caste-based reservations in the armed forces.


The Sachar Committee's bias has been clearly shown by their reliance on foreign research. It is time the government prohibits the Sachar Committee from dealing with the armed forces.

This does not mean that the government should not ask the army to conduct an exercise as to why the proportion of Muslims or Christians or Gujaratis is less in the armed forces.

Finally a counter question to the Sachar Committee: What is the proportion of Muslim employees in Muslim-owned companies like ? If it is less than their proportion in population, do we take it that the Muslim owners of these companies are also against the minorities?

Is there no limit to 'vote bank' politics, for the sake of which a government is prepared to destroy the efficiency and cohesion of its armed forces and jeopardise the nation's security?

Muslims in the Army: A dangerous census

BTW Indian Army full of Hindus and Sikhs saved Bengali Muslims from Pakistani Muslims who were raping and killing in Millions.

nice reply mate. and because of this I got to know about turtuk . I never knew that.

 

[perplexed]

i guess even you know how much lame you sound...where is representation in army tell me name of a few Lt gen in army and what abt IA.....How easy it is to live in a fake world...Sikhs being 2% can give you so many generals and army chiefs and muslims which are 10 times more cant give one prime minister and army chief...what would you call that ?

Beacuse most muslims were illeterate .. and Sikhs are more entreprenuerial .. PERIOD ! While muslims decided that madarassah is the way to excel in life sikhs choose to work their as$es off in whatever positions they were in..

Be it playing hard on-the field or studying like a freak for CBSE/JEE/Entrance exams !

 

[walwal]

well sports and entertainment are things where 1) one's skill take him on top 2) No govt approval is req to make someone a hero..

Read this published in your newspaper and tell us Indians if you are able to comprehend any positive out of that Hopes and dreams - Aijaz Zaka Syed

 

[dronedevta]

who cares?

khalistan means blank space

 

[Albatross]

Beacuse most muslims were illeterate .. and Sikhs are more entreprenuerial .. PERIOD ! While muslims decided that madarassah is the way to excel in life sikhs choose to work their as$es off in whatever positions they were in..

Be it playing hard on-the field or studying like a freak for CBSE/JEE/Entrance exams !

Very interesting theory out of 20-25 crores muslims not even one was able to reach even till the Lt general rank in army while in your neighboring countries on both sides they are running full fledged armies and Pakistan army is considered one the most powerful in the world...

Okay that was army leave that why muslims are not given representation in IA ..Sikhs being 2% holds 10% allocation muslims being 20% should have atleat 20 % seats...And this is legislative issue which has nothing to do anything else..

Just admit you hindus hate muslims for they are muslims and do everything to suppress them and kill them as well as we can recall from dozens of riots since 1947...

 

[walwal]

Very interesting theory out of 20-25 crores muslims not even one was able to reach even till the Lt general rank in army while in your neighboring countries on both sides they are running full fledged armies and Pakistan army is considered one the most powerful in the world...

Okay that was army leave that why muslims are not given representation in IA ..Sikhs being 2% holds 10% allocation muslims being 20% should have atleat 20 % seats...And this is legislative issue which has nothing to do anything else..

Just admit you hindus hate muslims for they are muslims and do everything to suppress them and kill them as well as we can recall from dozens of riots since 1947...

On representation in any sphere don't get started. How many Hindus could find place in your cricket team after Anil Dalpat and Danish Kaneria ? How many Christians after Yousuf Yohanna could get in ? Even his case got dissolved later after conversion...

Arts and culture is heavily influenced and dominated by Muslim fraternity and they are revered by a country who proclaims of majority Hindus. Even if it is not legislative matter, it is the people who take them to stars, yes the same evil majority Hindus.

 

[INDIC]

Its about percentage in national assembly give me that figure .As compare to 10% sikhs muslims should be 25 %.
Its about top general ranks in army since 47 give me muslims names as an ordinary sepoy means nothing its a general that counts .how many sikh general were there and how many muslims were there just tell plz

Because many of the states in India are under-represented in Army and majority of Indian Muslims live in these states. While some states over-represented in Army.