Democracy in Asia-Pacific

[LowPost]

Fraternite, Egalite, Fraternite

*Liberté

 

[Aepsilons]

*Liberté

Whoops! LOL!

Please don't take that as a Freudian slip!

 

[LowPost]

Whoops! LOL!

Please don't take that as a Freudian slip!

No worries mate, just go on posting as usual. I haven't got much time myself for writing a detailed take on the topic but I'll leave you a blog entry I completely agree from Hidden Harmonies, where I occasionally take articles from and post them in the China & Far East section.

“Democracy” Does Not Exist, Only An Empty Soapbox. | Hidden Harmonies China Blog

 

[Piper]

This is where and how you and I are different.

While -- like you -- I am not completely satisfied with our current system, neither am I so disillusioned that cynicism is the default attitude. If anything, given how much I know of how other governments rule their peoples, I see cynicism of the American system to be egotistical, vain, and mostly pretentious. It contribute nothing to even explore on how to repair/improve the system. I have in tech all my life and nothing annoys me more than someone in a meeting does nothing but complain that this process is flawed or that equipment does not work and offers no ideas, let alone solutions.

There is a lot of presumption and condescension in your post. My post clearly stated there is so much more we can do to improve our system. I will further elaborate by saying what we need is a disruption of status-quo

You mean YOU are not a 'special interest' in your own right ?

I am a special interest but my influence is limited to me. What special interest groups like Big Pharma or NRA do is make decisions for the rest of us without our input there performing what is essentially an abortion of our democracy.

It depends on WHAT you want in a volatile issue like guns and the 2nd Amendment. Anyone with an opinion about an issue believes his/her stance is 'common sense' and others are crazy.

Some issues are not contingent on opinions but facts and realities and the reality is that lax gun control laws are extracting a heavy toll. Statistics back me up on this.

Forget control for a moment think about climate change, evolution and global warming - these are scientifically proven facts not a matter for debate but go to Ted Cruz and ask him about it and you wouldn't find a difference b/w his opinion and a caveman's. Such a break from reality and common sense is harmful to our country and world at large. We expect better from our leaders who would form policy decisions on these issues.

Who forces them into those extremes ?

Isn't it obvious? Disillusionment of the status quo. Discontent often leads to polls.

 

[Jlaw]

http://www.saylor.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/POLSC221-4.1.5-TypesDem-FINAL.pdf

A great read, folks.

interesting read. There was a point where the author mentioned how should elected officials react should the majority voters want policies that are unfavourable to the overall well being of the country? Should the official not implement the policies?

In a true democractic system, more policies will be enacted on the social well being of the population. Economy and jobs will always be the focus of elections. Outside of the PDF world the majority of people would prefer their government spend more money on job creation, education instead of the military. In reality that is not the case.

It is my opinion as well as many others that the US democratic system is working for the corporations and not for the majority of the people. Some people will say that the US is a plutocracy not a democracy.

 

[gambit]

There is a lot of presumption and condescension in your post. My post clearly stated there is so much more we can do to improve our system. I will further elaborate by saying what we need is a disruption of status-quo

What is to be disillusioned ?

disappointed in someone or something that one discovers to be less good than one had believed.

It is not merely disappointment. The root of the word is 'illusion', meaning appearance, or mostly appearance and far less substance. So to be 'disillusioned' is to be disappointed at the appearance with practically no care on if there are any substance and if that substance is worth examination.

The US is considered to be the world's oldest democracy, or more precise the world's oldest CONTINUOUS democracy. That continuity cannot exist unless there are serious substance to American style democracy and the execution of the same.

Take a look at this article...

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/04/economist-explains-8

Why is it so hard to form a government in Italy?

In the 67 years since Italians have had 61 governments (or 62, if you count Mr Letta’s), each one lasting for a little more than a year on average.

That is 61 disruptions of 61 perceptions of the status-quo. The Americans have had only one government since the founding of the country. Some legal scholars argued that the Civil War was a disruption and that mean the US had two governments. But no matter whose argument is subscribed, if any people have the right to be disillusioned of their government, it is the Italians and sorry, not the Americans.

You can rebut: "Well, I am not an Italian so..."

If you want a disruption, what are you going to replace what you destroyed with ? The Italian system ? My question is not as facetious as it appears. If you want a change, it is not enough to say change but also to provide a solution for what you removed.

You are disillusioned with the amount of money in the American political system ? The alternative is the bullet.

You are disillusioned with the fact that there are only two political parties in the US ? But there are no laws that bans any political bias. The Communist Party of the USA is still alive. If we want to ban any political party, it would be the commies, right ?

I am not saying that your disillusionment is a lie. Let us grant that you are honest about it. But the question is whether your disillusionment came from a sound foundation. From my perspective and travels, you do not have a solid foundation to stand upon and say you are disillusioned.

I am a special interest but my influence is limited to me. What special interest groups like Big Pharma or NRA do is make decisions for the rest of us without our input there performing what is essentially an abortion of our democracy.

And unions are for whom ?

Some issues are not contingent on opinions but facts and realities and the reality is that lax gun control laws are extracting a heavy toll. Statistics back me up on this.

You mean the statistics that says there are more deterrence of crime by guns than there are victims of gun related violence ?

Forget control for a moment think about climate change, evolution and global warming - these are scientifically proven facts not a matter for debate but go to Ted Cruz and ask him about it and you wouldn't find a difference b/w his opinion and a caveman's. Such a break from reality and common sense is harmful to our country and world at large. We expect better from our leaders who would form policy decisions on these issues.

Yeah...At one point in American history, science was used to justify slavery and forced eugenics. Ironic that it was the irrational religionists who fought against those policies.

Isn't it obvious? Disillusionment of the status quo. Discontent often leads to polls.

Then why is it that the pundits continues to say that elections hinges on moderates ?

I am an immigrant and naturalized US citizen. My first President was Raygun. That does not mean I voted for him. It mean Raygun was President when I became eligible to vote. But moderates have been talked about as pivotal since I became politically aware under Carter. The American electorate is not as extreme or disillusioned of their country as you believe.

 

[Desertfalcon]

What is clear is that WITHIN CHINA is the same basic fundamental Bill of Rights that is seen in the United States Constitution and the same spirit of Fraternite Liberté, Egalite, Fraternite that had been espoused upon by Voltaire, Locke and other key European enlightenment thinkers during the genesis of Universality of Human Rights. So we can summarize current Chinese political machination and political economic development as being totally organic and adaptive. She is the antithesis of stasis, actually.

Regards.

While China has made great strides since the dark days of Mao, China is clearly NOT a state that guarantees the, "same basic fundamental Bill of Rights that is seen in the United States Constitution and the same spirit of Fraternite Liberté, Egalite, Fraternite that had been espoused upon by Voltaire, Locke and other key European enlightenment thinkers during the genesis of Universality of Human Rights." China has no internal free press, no freedom to peaceably assemble, very limited freedom of religion and conscience, no free elections, no other independent political parties can exist, no independent labour unions, no transparent judiciary. Again, I applaud the great progress China has made, but she still has a long way to go.

Ironically, I and many American strategic thinkers, firmly believe that China will truly become the world's greatest superpower ONLY when she fully embraces the very ideas of the European Enlightenment, that you think she already has. A truly democratic China, with 1.4 billion industrious people, working in a system of entrepreneurial market capitalism, would be an unstoppable power and even as a patriotic American, I would love to see that happen.

That is 61 disruptions of 61 perceptions of the status-quo. The Americans have had only one government since the founding of the country.

No offence, but you are misunderstanding how the term "governments" is used in a parliamentary system. It does not mean that Italy has had 61 constitutions or 61 types of government, as you imply. It simply means that Italy has had a change of parties who are in charge, 61 times. Just as every time we Americans have an election and change parties, we are not changing our whole system or constitution, just the people in charge.

 

[bbccdd1470]

Great appraisal! Let me also interject a theme for us to ponder upon; the role of Populism and its effect(s) on Democracy.

@bbccdd1470 @Arryn , let's join this thread.



Ah, mon frere, what you're noticing is populism in effect. Well, i'd say Trump , Cruz and even Sanders are both examples of Populism on the grand stage there in the United States.

You should know I'm not really fond of democracy according the current situation in HK. But I can share something from my experience, democracy should also come along with loyalty, since without loyalty to the nation that is easily infiltrated by foreign powers. People under democratic system should respect the majority rule; legislator from minority should never use any method to delay or postpone the normal procedure. Violence and verbal abuse is never allowed in the legislature. Political party should be strictly restricted on receiving money, like bribery, and must transparent on their finance. The judicial branch must be independent, at the same time, hold accountable by legislature and the people, especially the Judges must remain neutral, not follow by their political stand.

PS) This is what HK need to change if we want a better democratic system. I realize that this is easier said than done, since loyalty is already a requirement for being a legislator but still traitors are everywhere.

 

[Cossack25A1]

While China has made great strides since the dark days of Mao, China is clearly NOT a state that guarantees the, "same basic fundamental Bill of Rights that is seen in the United States Constitution and the same spirit of Fraternite Liberté, Egalite, Fraternite that had been espoused upon by Voltaire, Locke and other key European enlightenment thinkers during the genesis of Universality of Human Rights." China has no internal free press, no freedom to peaceably assemble, very limited freedom of religion and conscience, no free elections, no other independent political parties can exist, no independent labour unions, no transparent judiciary. Again, I applaud the great progress China has made, but she still has a long way to go.

Ironically, I and many American strategic thinkers, firmly believe that China will truly become the world's greatest superpower ONLY when she fully embraces the very ideas of the European Enlightenment, that you think she already has. A truly democratic China, with 1.4 billion industrious people, working in a system of entrepreneurial market capitalism, would be an unstoppable power and even as a patriotic American, I would love to see that happen.


No offence, but you are misunderstanding how the term "governments" is used in a parliamentary system. It does not mean that Italy has had 61 constitutions or 61 types of government, as you imply. It simply means that Italy has had a change of parties who are in charge, 61 times. Just as every time we Americans have an election and change parties, we are not changing our whole system or constitution, just the people in charge.

For the record, the Philippines had "six governments" ever since we revolted from Spain, but this doesn't include the Philippine Insular government which is headed by Americans.

- The first one is the Malolos Republic (also known as the First Philippine Republic) which existed from 1899 up to 1901. This form of government is a revolutionary-type government. It was replaced by the Philippine Insular Government after the Philippine-American War ended... well except in Mindanao where the war raged up to 1913. There were also the Republic of Negros and Republic of Zamboanga that existed during the time the Malolos Republic existed, as well as the Sultanate of Sulu. During the Insular Government period, a short-live Tagalog Republic also existed.

- The second is the Philippine Commonwealth, which replaced the Philippine Insular govnerment that was established in 1901 and existed until 1935. It is a transitional government to prepare the Philippines for independence. It was established in 1935 and was supposed to end in 1945 but WW2 came.

- The third is the Second Philippine Republic which is a Japanese-sponsored government established in 1943 with Jose P. Laurel installed as president. This is basically a puppet government for the Empire of Japan. It was disbanded in 1945. It co-existed with the Philippine Commonwealth, which is a government-in-exile.

- The fourth is the Third Philippine Republic which started in 1945 and encompassed the administrations of Presidents Manuel Roxas, Elpidio Quirino, Ramon Magsaysay, Carlos P. Garcia, Diosdado Macapagal and the first eight years of Ferdinand Marcos. This is the time when the Philippines experience economic growth, mostly due to American relations.

- The fifth is the Fourth Philippine Republic which started sometime after former president Marcos declared Martial Law in 1972 and lasted up to 1986, when the Aquino-led1986 Revolt occurred and ousted Marcos. Since the country is under Martial Law from 1972 up to 1981 (it was lifted due to Pope John Paul II's visit), the government is a military dictatorship

- The sixth one is the Fifth Philippine Republic which started in 1986 and is the present government of the Philippines. The definition of democracy in this era is a bit... "hazy".

Of the six Philippine governments, only two can be seen as democracy, though the Commonwealth era still has direct American presence in Philippine local politics while the Third Republic is not that perfect.

 

[Aepsilons]

While China has made great strides since the dark days of Mao, China is clearly NOT a state that guarantees the, "same basic fundamental Bill of Rights that is seen in the United States Constitution and the same spirit of Fraternite Liberté, Egalite, Fraternite that had been espoused upon by Voltaire, Locke and other key European enlightenment thinkers during the genesis of Universality of Human Rights." China has no internal free press, no freedom to peaceably assemble, very limited freedom of religion and conscience, no free elections, no other independent political parties can exist, no independent labour unions, no transparent judiciary. Again, I applaud the great progress China has made, but she still has a long way to go.

Ironically, I and many American strategic thinkers, firmly believe that China will truly become the world's greatest superpower ONLY when she fully embraces the very ideas of the European Enlightenment, that you think she already has. A truly democratic China, with 1.4 billion industrious people, working in a system of entrepreneurial market capitalism, would be an unstoppable power and even as a patriotic American, I would love to see that happen.

I thank you @Desertfalcon for taking the time to write that up, appreciate this rapport we have, my friend. My only issue is that it does not cultivate cooperation by advocating for a revolution, in the sense of government style utilization. China becoming a 'democracy' may not necessarily work as there are various democratic institutions in the world that are effectively ineffective. The burden of bureaucracy, my friend. China has a socialist , capitalist government with a society that is influenced by the ideals of democratic socialism. Perhaps it would be best for you to also look into the Constitution of the Chinese People's Republic to see that they do have the same Bill of Rights as espoused by any other country that operates in the democratic system.

----

Chapter II The Fundamental Rights and Duties of Citizens

Article 33 All persons holding the nationality of the People’s Republic of China are citizens of the People’s Republic of China.

All citizens of the People’s Republic of China are equal before the law.

The State respects and preserves human rights.

Every citizen is entitled to the rights and at the same time must perform the duties prescribed by the Constitution and other laws.

Article 34 All citizens of the People’s Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of ethnic status, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law.

Article 35 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Article 36 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief.

No State organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion.

The State protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the State.

Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.

Article 37 Freedom of the person of citizens of the People’s Republic of China is inviolable.

No citizen may be arrested except with the approval or by decision of a people’s procuratorate or by decision of a people’s court, and arrests must be made by a public security organ.

Unlawful detention or deprivation or restriction of citizens’ freedom of the person by other means is prohibited, and unlawful search of the person of citizens is prohibited.

Article 38 The personal dignity of citizens of the People’s Republic of China is inviolable. Insult, libel, false accusation or false incrimination directed against citizens by any means is prohibited.

Article 39 The residences of citizens of the People’s Republic of China are inviolable. Unlawful search of, or intrusion into, a citizen’s residence is prohibited.

Article 40 Freedom and privacy of correspondence of citizens of the People’s Republic of China are protected by law. No organization or individual may, on any ground, infringe upon citizens’ freedom and privacy of correspondence, except in cases where, to meet the needs of State security or of criminal investigation, public security or procuratorial organs are permitted to censor correspondence in accordance with the procedures prescribed by law.

Article 41 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China have the right to criticize and make suggestions regarding any State organ or functionary. Citizens have the right to make to relevant State organs complaints or charges against, or exposures of, any State organ or functionary for violation of law or dereliction of duty; but fabrication or distortion of facts for purposes of libel or false incrimination is prohibited.

The State organ concerned must, in a responsible manner and by ascertaining the facts, deal with the complaints, charges or exposures made by citizens. No one may suppress such complaints, charges and exposures or retaliate against the citizens making them.

Citizens who have suffered losses as a result of infringement of their civic rights by any State organ or functionary have the right to compensation in accordance with the provisions of law.

Article 42 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China have the right as well as the duty to work.

Through various channels, the State creates conditions for employment, enhances occupational safety and health, improves working conditions and, on the basis of expanded production, increases remuneration for work and welfare benefits.

Work is a matter of honour for every citizen who is able to work. All working people in State-owned enterprises and in urban and rural economic collectives should approach their work as the masters of the country that they are. The State promotes socialist labour emulation, and commends and rewards model and advanced workers. The State encourages citizens to take part in voluntary labour.

The State provides necessary vocational training for citizens before they are employed.

Article 43 Working people in the People’s Republic of China have the right to rest.

The State expands facilities for the rest and recuperation of the working people and prescribes working hours and vacations for workers and staff.

Article 44 The State applies the system of retirement for workers and staff members of enterprises and institutions and for functionaries of organs of State according to law. The livelihood of retired persons is ensured by the State and society.

Article 45 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China have the right to material assistance from the State and society when they are old, ill or disabled. The State develops social insurance, social relief and medical and health services that are required for citizens to enjoy this right.

The State and society ensure the livelihood of disabled members of the armed forces, provide pensions to the families of martyrs and give preferential treatment to the families of military personnel.

The State and society help make arrangements for the work, livelihood and education of the blind, deaf-mutes and other handicapped citizens.

Article 46 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China have the duty as well as the right to receive education.

The State promotes the all-round development of children and young people, morally, intellectually and physically.

Article 47 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China have the freedom to engage in scientific research, literary and artistic creation and other cultural pursuits. The State encourages and assists creative endeavours conducive to the interests of the people that are made by citizens engaged in education, science, technology, literature, art and other cultural work.

Article 48 Women in the People’s Republic of China enjoy equal rights with men in all spheres of life, in political, economic, cultural, social and family life.

The State protects the rights and interests of women, applies the principle of equal pay for equal work to men and women alike and trains and selects cadres from among women.

Article 49 Marriage, the family and mother and child are protected by the State.

Both husband and wife have the duty to practise family planning.

Parents have the duty to rear and educate their children who are minors, and children who have come of age have the duty to support and assist their parents.

Violation of the freedom of marriage is prohibited. Maltreatment of old people, women and children is prohibited.

Article 50 The People’s Republic of China protects the legitimate rights and interests of Chinese nationals residing abroad and protects the lawful rights and interests of returned overseas Chinese and of the family members of Chinese nationals residing abroad.

Article 51 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China, in exercising their freedoms and rights, may not infringe upon the interests of the State, of society or of the collective, or upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens.

Article 52 It is the duty of citizens of the People’s Republic of China to safeguard the unification of the country and the unity of all its nationalities.

Article 53 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China must abide by the Constitution and other laws, keep State secrets, protect public property, observe labour discipline and public order and respect social ethics.

Article 54 It is the duty of citizens of the People’s Republic of China to safeguard the security, honour and interests of the motherland; they must not commit acts detrimental to the security, honour and interests of the motherland.

Article 55 It is the sacred duty of every citizen of the People’s Republic of China to defend the motherland and resist aggression.

It is the honourable duty of citizens of the People’s Republic of China to perform military service and join the militia in accordance with law.

Article 56 It is the duty of citizens of the People’s Republic of China to pay taxes in accordance with law.


The National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China

 

[Jlaw]

You should know I'm not really fond of democracy according the current situation in HK. But I can share something from my experience, democracy should also come along with loyalty, since without loyalty to the nation that is easily infiltrated by foreign powers. People under democratic system should respect the majority rule; legislator from minority should never use any method to delay or postpone the normal procedure. Violence and verbal abuse is never allowed in the legislature. Political party should be strictly restricted on receiving money, like bribery, and must transparent on their finance. The judicial branch must be independent, at the same time, hold accountable by legislature and the people, especially the Judges must remain neutral, not follow by their political stand.

PS) This is what HK need to change if we want a better democratic system. I realize that this is easier said than done, since loyalty is already a requirement for being a legislator but still traitors are everywhere.

I would say HK legislative assembly is a joke. Hence why I hate democracy in general. In HK you have a stupid bully name "Hairy" or Long Hair. Basically he is an uneducated **** who bully other bespectacled members. than you have Baldy, another dumb ***. Seriously, some young HK person should run and once in, punch these two mofo in the face.

In summary. In a democracy-a system where any dumb **** can be a leader. I don't see this in any other field. You will not be the head of the Medical council unless you were / are a practicing physician. End of story.

 

[nang2]

While China has made great strides since the dark days of Mao, China is clearly NOT a state that guarantees the, "same basic fundamental Bill of Rights that is seen in the United States Constitution and the same spirit of Fraternite Liberté, Egalite, Fraternite that had been espoused upon by Voltaire, Locke and other key European enlightenment thinkers during the genesis of Universality of Human Rights." China has no internal free press, no freedom to peaceably assemble, very limited freedom of religion and conscience, no free elections, no other independent political parties can exist, no independent labour unions, no transparent judiciary. Again, I applaud the great progress China has made, but she still has a long way to go.

Ironically, I and many American strategic thinkers, firmly believe that China will truly become the world's greatest superpower ONLY when she fully embraces the very ideas of the European Enlightenment, that you think she already has. A truly democratic China, with 1.4 billion industrious people, working in a system of entrepreneurial market capitalism, would be an unstoppable power and even as a patriotic American, I would love to see that happen.


No offence, but you are misunderstanding how the term "governments" is used in a parliamentary system. It does not mean that Italy has had 61 constitutions or 61 types of government, as you imply. It simply means that Italy has had a change of parties who are in charge, 61 times. Just as every time we Americans have an election and change parties, we are not changing our whole system or constitution, just the people in charge.

I believe the freedom of speech is overrated. Being dogmatic about it is dangerous. As Samuel Johnson said: "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."

 

[Jlaw]

"Freedom of speech" is not really true freedom of speech as we all know. I don't understand why Americans or anyone else in the world truly believe there is real freedom of speech?

Write anything opposing Jewish thoughts, IQ among races, etc and you will be in trouble. Freedom of speech, not worth a pinch of salt.

 

[nang2]

"Freedom of speech" is not really true freedom of speech as we all know. I don't understand why Americans or anyone else in the world truly believe there is real freedom of speech?

Write anything opposing Jewish thoughts, IQ among races, etc and you will be in trouble. Freedom of speech, not worth a pinch of salt.

I am recently reading on Samuel Johnson, who arguably started the enlightenment of England. If I may indulge myself again, let me quote another argument from this witty man.

"Every man has a right to liberty of conscience, and with that the magistrate cannot interfere. People confound liberty of thinking with liberty of talking; nay, with liberty of preaching. Every man has a physical right to think as he pleases; for it cannot be discovered how he thinks. He has not a moral right, for he ought to inform himself, and think justly. But, Sir, no member of a society has a right to teach any doctrine contrary to what the society holds to be true. The magistrate, I say, may be wrong in what he thinks; but while he thinks himself right, he may and ought to enforce what he thinks."

 

[Aepsilons]

In summary. In a democracy-a system where any dumb **** can be a leader. I don't see this in any other field. You will not be the head of the Medical council unless you were / are a practicing physician. End of story.

Nor can a man or woman practice law except he be trained in law school and bar-certified. I agree with you.

You will not be the head of the Medical council unless you were / are a practicing physician. End of story.

Reminds me of something that happened in the United States recently:

18-Year-Old Florida Man Arrested After Posing as Doctor, Opening Medical Practice: Sheriff’s Office | KTLA