Democracy in Asia-Pacific

[bbccdd1470]

I would say HK legislative assembly is a joke. Hence why I hate democracy in general. In HK you have a stupid bully name "Hairy" or Long Hair. Basically he is an uneducated **** who bully other bespectacled members. than you have Baldy, another dumb ***. Seriously, some young HK person should run and once in, punch these two mofo in the face.

In summary. In a democracy-a system where any dumb **** can be a leader. I don't see this in any other field. You will not be the head of the Medical council unless you were / are a practicing physician. End of story.

I notice that you are quite familiar with HK politics. The problem what we are facing now is populism, where our young people are passionate but native, and our politicians, like "Long hair" and "Baldy", are making bad example for them since they promote and encourage violence to achieve their goals. Moreover, our society is so divided, which is hard to conduct a rational debate even with friend and family.
I don't think all democratic countries are bad. Since you are form Canada, you must already know Canadians just elected Justin Trudeau as PM. He seems like a guy who looks after the Canadian interest, unlike Stephen Harper who did the opposite. Democracy is good, as long as, the people who involve in the policy making, truly look after the interests of their country and people.

 

[Jlaw]

Nor can a man or woman practice law except he be trained in law school and bar-certified. I agree with you.



Reminds me of something that happened in the United States recently:

18-Year-Old Florida Man Arrested After Posing as Doctor, Opening Medical Practice: Sheriff’s Office | KTLA

Maybe he should just be a politician.

 

[Aepsilons]

Maybe he should just be a politician.

a politician?

 

[Jlaw]

I notice that you are quite familiar with HK politics. The problem what we are facing now is populism, where our young people are passionate but native, and our politicians, like "Long hair" and "Baldy", are making bad example for them since they promote and encourage violence to achieve their goals. Moreover, our society is so divided, which is hard to conduct a rational debate even with friend and family.
I don't think all democratic countries are bad. Since you are form Canada, you must already know Canadians just elected Justin Trudeau as PM. He seems like a guy who looks after the Canadian interest, unlike Stephen Harper who did the opposite. Democracy is good, as long as, the people who involve in the policy making, truly look after the interests of their country and people.

Actually, Canada is really messed up now. In general, the Candian media for the most part are liberal. The pieces written tend to put a white hat over Liberal politicians and black hats for the conservative such as Steven Harper. In fact, Just Trudeau have done nothing that is beneficial to Canada yet. He is too busy trying to pose pictures for magazines, trying legalize marijuana, and helping Syrian refugee kid put on a coat.

Many Canadians oppose letting in 25,000 Syrian refugees because Canada allow too many refugees already. He did not listen to the majority.

 

[Aepsilons]

Many Canadians oppose letting in 25,000 Syrian refugees because Canada allow too many refugees already. He did not listen to the majority.

I suppose that sentiment reflects the North American (Canada, US) position:

Most Americans Support Using Force in Syria, Oppose Refugees

 

[bbccdd1470]

Actually, Canada is really messed up now. In general, the Candian media for the most part are liberal. The pieces written tend to put a white hat over Liberal politicians and black hats for the conservative such as Steven Harper. In fact, Just Trudeau have done nothing that is beneficial to Canada yet. He is too busy trying to pose pictures for magazines, trying legalize marijuana, and helping Syrian refugee kid put on a coat.

Many Canadians oppose letting in 25,000 Syrian refugees because Canada allow too many refugees already. He did not listen to the majority.

Thanks for sharing this. Hopefully he will deliver what he was promoted during the election campaign, otherwise he is just Obama 2.0. How bad is Canada now? I have relatives who live in Alberta and he told me the economy is really bad, even in Alberta the most prospect province.

 

[nang2]

Actually, Canada is really messed up now. In general, the Candian media for the most part are liberal. The pieces written tend to put a white hat over Liberal politicians and black hats for the conservative such as Steven Harper. In fact, Just Trudeau have done nothing that is beneficial to Canada yet. He is too busy trying to pose pictures for magazines, trying legalize marijuana, and helping Syrian refugee kid put on a coat.

Many Canadians oppose letting in 25,000 Syrian refugees because Canada allow too many refugees already. He did not listen to the majority.

Canadians need straight-face politicians, not pretty boys. The road to truth is martyrdom. Someone has to stand out and do the unpopular thing so the country may be rescued or its decay postponed.

 

[gambit]

No offence, but you are misunderstanding how the term "governments" is used in a parliamentary system. It does not mean that Italy has had 61 constitutions or 61 types of government, as you imply. It simply means that Italy has had a change of parties who are in charge, 61 times. Just as every time we Americans have an election and change parties, we are not changing our whole system or constitution, just the people in charge.

I understand the differences between different forms of governments.

My point was in reference to the old saying: 'If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.'

Italy wanted to prevent the ascent of another Hitler, so the Italians formulated their execution of democratic principles to try to please as many political biases as possible by giving them seats in government, the result is what political scientists expected -- a deadlocked government. Or in the case of Italy, a system of governance that produces so much political paralysis that it ended up with many dissolved governments.

At the other end of the spectrum is the US with the classic 'first past the post' electoral system where because the burden of representation lies with the people, the system tends to achieve equilibrium with two parties, giving foreigners the impression that the US is an unfair and 'not a real democracy' perception. No one ever thought of looking at the Communist Party of the USA as it is still around. If the CPUSA managed to poach enough people from the other two parties, the system would end up with two major parties again.

As the perception is that on the scale of functional democracies, the US represent one extreme and Italy the other extreme. The US is a stable democracy but representation is scant. Italy tries to be as representative as possible but governance is not continuous. People do not want dictatorships but there has to be a middle ground between the US and Italy.

In that middle ground, other peoples have different methods of executing democratic principles. How many in this forum, including Americans, know that the Swiss have a rotating Presidency ? Basically, the Swiss President is un-democratically moved into office. The Swiss government is certainly stable and governance is continuous, but would Americans be amenable to have a rotating Presidency among the 50 states ?

In engineering, if the system is flawed but reliable, unless there is a readied alternative, you do not scrap the system on a whim. That is why I am disappointed at Americans who expressed dissatisfaction at their country without bothering to research how other democracies execute democratic principles and see if those methods could be popular enough for the Americans to transition into practical application.

 

[nang2]

I understand the differences between different forms of governments.

My point was in reference to the old saying: 'If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.'

Italy wanted to prevent the ascent of another Hitler, so the Italians formulated their execution of democratic principles to try to please as many political biases as possible by giving them seats in government, the result is what political scientists expected -- a deadlocked government. Or in the case of Italy, a system of governance that produces so much political paralysis that it ended up with many dissolved governments.

At the other end of the spectrum is the US with the classic 'first past the post' electoral system where because the burden of representation lies with the people, the system tends to achieve equilibrium with two parties, giving foreigners the impression that the US is an unfair and 'not a real democracy' perception. No one ever thought of looking at the Communist Party of the USA as it is still around. If the CPUSA managed to poach enough people from the other two parties, the system would end up with two major parties again.

As the perception is that on the scale of functional democracies, the US represent one extreme and Italy the other extreme. The US is a stable democracy but representation is scant. Italy tries to be as representative as possible but governance is not continuous. People do not want dictatorships but there has to be a middle ground between the US and Italy.

In that middle ground, other peoples have different methods of executing democratic principles. How many in this forum, including Americans, know that the Swiss have a rotating Presidency ? Basically, the Swiss President is un-democratically moved into office. The Swiss government is certainly stable and governance is continuous, but would Americans be amenable to have a rotating Presidency among the 50 states ?

In engineering, if the system is flawed but reliable, unless there is a readied alternative, you do not scrap the system on a whim. That is why I am disappointed at Americans who expressed dissatisfaction at their country without bothering to research how other democracies execute democratic principles and see if those methods could be popular enough for the Americans to transition into practical application.

I have to say it is all wisdom. Also, US is no way near dictatorship as it, for the most time, is hovering around the middle ground.

 

[Desertfalcon]

thank you My only issue is that it does not cultivate cooperation by advocating for a revolution, in the sense of government style utilization. China becoming a 'democracy' may not necessarily work as there are various democratic institutions in the world that are [U][I]effectively ineffective[/I][/U]. The burden of bureaucracy, my friend. China has a socialist , capitalist government with a society that is influenced by the ideals of democratic socialism. Perhaps it would be best for you to also look into the Constitution of the Chinese People's Republic to see that they do have the same Bill of Rights as espoused by any other country that operates in the democratic system.

I appreciate your comments but, 1. I did not, and do not, advocate violent revolution in China. There have been many, many states now that have once been communist and are now functioning democracies, who achieved that without violent revolution. Indeed, the Cold War ended with the internal [b]collapse[/b] of communism, much more so than with violent revolt. It might have happened in China, were it not for the Chinese government slaughtering their own people who were peacefully demonstrating for democratic ideas in Tienanmen Square. 2. China need only to look to Taiwan, the Republic of China, to see Chinese peoples living and functioning in an effective democracy that is a prosperous, capitalist state. 3. You can post all the flowery assurances of rights from the PRC's constitution you wish but surely you are not so naive to believe that those provisions actually have meaning or weight, do you? Some of the states with the most egregious human rights records have constitutional provisions that have the most democratic and libertarian prose...at precociously the same time that those states brutally ruled their people. Now, if you would like, I will post any number of human rights organization's reports on the PRC that detail the abuses I sited. Those groups are not simply "western", but are Asian, indeed, even Chinese, and provide not just claims, but evidence. This is not difficult information to find. One need only Google it.

 

[Jlaw]

Thanks for sharing this. Hopefully he will deliver what he was promoted during the election campaign, otherwise he is just Obama 2.0. How bad is Canada now? I have relatives who live in Alberta and he told me the economy is really bad, even in Alberta the most prospect province.

Alberta is badly hit due to low oil prices. Our government dropped the ball when oil was at $100. They were very cautious and did not exploit the oil sands to the fullest when oil was hot. Now they are paying for it. Not sure how long your relatives have lived in Alberta but Alberta is known as a "boom bust" province. Now we are starting to see the lingering affect of low oil prices for these provinces.

Our economy is in bad shape but our government and media just pretend it's not. People rave over high property prices but it is mainly foreigners (mainly mainland Chinese) buying up new subdivision development. But how long will that last? Our job growth prospect is not that great as most of the new jobs created are part time , low wages service jobs.

Vancouver will be the first to have housing bubble as the province does not and never was the financial or manufacturing hub of Canada. There is no basis for them to have such high house prices other than Asians overpaying and buying up the houses. Ontario is the financial / manufacturing hub of Canada but that is not saying much. Vancouver's saving grace is its close to East Asia.

Politicians are crap here but at least our prime minister admire China's "dictatorship" style of planning

For the record, the media in Canada is also biased against the middle Kingdom.

 

[Aepsilons]

@Desertfalcon ,

Like most countries in the world, China supports the ideal of human rights depicted and advocated in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international documents and agrees with the idea that human rights should be universal. However, China also holds it that to better realize the common goals of human rights needs each country to explore and find the best and most efficient way in accordance with their own conditions. One of the reasons for fast development of human rights in China since its reform and opening-up is that China chose a development path for human rights according to its own conditions. The path fits the conditions of China and therefore efficiently promotes the realization of universal human rights.

I. Promoting the realization of economic, social and cultural rights on the basis of full economic development

Economic, social and cultural rights are the support of a country or a society to provide individuals with their material and cultural life. They are a kind of national or social benefits in nature that require strong financial supports. Many social rights can be achieved only after the economy is improved to a certain level. With the economy lagging behind and people suffering from poverty, the economic, social and cultural rights are only luxuries out of reach. Only when the economy reaches a certain level, can these rights be realized. Put it another way, it is in fact a kind of reallocation of social resources to realize the economic, social and cultural rights. There must be enough resources created for allocation. Therefore, economic development is a prerequisite for realizing economic, social and cultural rights.

Before the reform and opening-up, China could not provide enough goods due to its backward economy and scarcity. To change such status, the Chinese government formed the strategy of "three steps for modernization." Step one: by the end of the 1980s, the GDP doubles that of 1980 and people get basic food and clothing; Step two: by the end of the 20th century, the GDP of 2000 should double again and the people enjoy a fairly well-off life. Step Three: By the middle of the 21st Century, the per capita GDP is expected to be on par with the mid-ranking developed countries and the people will be living a well-off life. At that time, China will have basically realized modernization. For many years, China has been taking economic development as its top priority and the work to develop economy its core task. All levels of government authorities and officials from the central government to local ones made economic development on their top agenda and all other work have been spontaneously supportive to this overwhelming task.[page]

As great attention has been paid to economic development and a right strategy has been taken in the entire country, China's economy has realized continuous fast growth. It is just because of this rapid development that China has better conditions to achieve its economic, social, and cultural rights. With the growth of its economic and financial power, China has been dramatically increasing its investment in poverty alleviation, education, medical care and social insurance, which results in the sharp decline in the number of poverty-stricken people, the fast growth of the length of schooling for the people, the obvious improvement of public health, and the establishment of social security system.

II. Promoting full development of human rights with realizing the economic, social and cultural rights as the starting point

Human rights are comprehensive and interlinked. They should be developed in an all-around way. Civil and political rights are the guarantee to fully realize economic, social, and cultural rights, while the latter is the basic conditions for realizing the former. Both of the two are indispensable parts of human rights. They are equally important, necessary, and needy for development. But it's not a simple task to develop human rights, as it involves the reallocation of interests among different groups, the adjustment of social structure, and the change of the way the country is managed and even impacts on the behavior and self-identity of the people in the country. It's not a task that can be made through government notices or decrees. To what levels can human rights achieve is closely linked to the entire development level of a society. Only those rights that meet the demands of social development and are beneficial to the social and economic advancement can be truly realized. Therefore, the government must find its best way to develop human rights in line with the conditions of the country by following the principle of improving human rights in a comprehensive way. From the historical view of human rights, it can also be found that countries with a long history of human rights have achieved their goals one by one in the long period of centuries. Each right, being the result of struggles and compromises among different social groups, is the consensus reached by all the people in the process of exploring the direction where their society shall head.

You can post all the flowery assurances of rights from the PRC's constitution you wish but surely you are not so naive to believe that those provisions actually have meaning or weight, do you?

Article 2 of the Constitution of China specifies: All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people. It indicates that in China, the people are owners and executors of the state power; and the people have the right to singly or collectively administer the state affairs, the economic and cultural undertakings, and other public affairs through various forms and channels according to law. Practicing the political rights and freedom of speech and the press is one of the rights. According to Article 35 of the Constitution of China, citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration as prescribed in Article 35 of the Constitution of China jointly form the political rights and freedom enjoyed by citizens of China, i.e., citizens enjoy the freedom to state clearly their attitude toward and express opinions and viewpoints on the state and social public affairs. It includes the freedom to exercise these rights in the individual way, as well as the collective way. Citizens can express their viewpoints and opinions through publishing works, or give voice to their own political views through the improvisational and short assembly, procession and demonstration.

Though Article 35 of the Constitution does not include the term “freedom of expression,” it contains various rights and freedom involving the normal operation of the modern democratic society; hence we can regard this group of rights and freedom as the right to freedom of expression, and name Article 35 of the Constitution as the article on freedom of expression.

 

[Desertfalcon]

I believe the freedom of speech is overrated. Being dogmatic about it is dangerous. As Samuel Johnson said: "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."

If Samuel Johnson said that...he is flat wrong. Once one believes they have a "right" to knock a man down, they will soon conclude they have a right to kill a man for expressing their ideas. You may think it moral. I do not.

@Desertfalcon ,

Like most countries in the world, China supports the ideal of human rights depicted and advocated in The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international documents and agrees with the idea that human rights should be universal. However, China also holds it that to better realize the common goals of human rights needs each country to explore and find the best and most efficient way in accordance with their own conditions. One of the reasons for fast development of human rights in China since its reform and opening-up is that China chose a development path for human rights according to its own conditions. The path fits the conditions of China and therefore efficiently promotes the realization of universal human rights.

I. Promoting the realization of economic, social and cultural rights on the basis of full economic development

Economic, social and cultural rights are the support of a country or a society to provide individuals with their material and cultural life. They are a kind of national or social benefits in nature that require strong financial supports. Many social rights can be achieved only after the economy is improved to a certain level. With the economy lagging behind and people suffering from poverty, the economic, social and cultural rights are only luxuries out of reach. Only when the economy reaches a certain level, can these rights be realized. Put it another way, it is in fact a kind of reallocation of social resources to realize the economic, social and cultural rights. There must be enough resources created for allocation. Therefore, economic development is a prerequisite for realizing economic, social and cultural rights.

Before the reform and opening-up, China could not provide enough goods due to its backward economy and scarcity. To change such status, the Chinese government formed the strategy of "three steps for modernization." Step one: by the end of the 1980s, the GDP doubles that of 1980 and people get basic food and clothing; Step two: by the end of the 20th century, the GDP of 2000 should double again and the people enjoy a fairly well-off life. Step Three: By the middle of the 21st Century, the per capita GDP is expected to be on par with the mid-ranking developed countries and the people will be living a well-off life. At that time, China will have basically realized modernization. For many years, China has been taking economic development as its top priority and the work to develop economy its core task. All levels of government authorities and officials from the central government to local ones made economic development on their top agenda and all other work have been spontaneously supportive to this overwhelming task.[page]

As great attention has been paid to economic development and a right strategy has been taken in the entire country, China's economy has realized continuous fast growth. It is just because of this rapid development that China has better conditions to achieve its economic, social, and cultural rights. With the growth of its economic and financial power, China has been dramatically increasing its investment in poverty alleviation, education, medical care and social insurance, which results in the sharp decline in the number of poverty-stricken people, the fast growth of the length of schooling for the people, the obvious improvement of public health, and the establishment of social security system.

II. Promoting full development of human rights with realizing the economic, social and cultural rights as the starting point

Human rights are comprehensive and interlinked. They should be developed in an all-around way. Civil and political rights are the guarantee to fully realize economic, social, and cultural rights, while the latter is the basic conditions for realizing the former. Both of the two are indispensable parts of human rights. They are equally important, necessary, and needy for development. But it's not a simple task to develop human rights, as it involves the reallocation of interests among different groups, the adjustment of social structure, and the change of the way the country is managed and even impacts on the behavior and self-identity of the people in the country. It's not a task that can be made through government notices or decrees. To what levels can human rights achieve is closely linked to the entire development level of a society. Only those rights that meet the demands of social development and are beneficial to the social and economic advancement can be truly realized. Therefore, the government must find its best way to develop human rights in line with the conditions of the country by following the principle of improving human rights in a comprehensive way. From the historical view of human rights, it can also be found that countries with a long history of human rights have achieved their goals one by one in the long period of centuries. Each right, being the result of struggles and compromises among different social groups, is the consensus reached by all the people in the process of exploring the direction where their society shall head.



Article 2 of the Constitution of China specifies: All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people. It indicates that in China, the people are owners and executors of the state power; and the people have the right to singly or collectively administer the state affairs, the economic and cultural undertakings, and other public affairs through various forms and channels according to law. Practicing the political rights and freedom of speech and the press is one of the rights. According to Article 35 of the Constitution of China, citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration as prescribed in Article 35 of the Constitution of China jointly form the political rights and freedom enjoyed by citizens of China, i.e., citizens enjoy the freedom to state clearly their attitude toward and express opinions and viewpoints on the state and social public affairs. It includes the freedom to exercise these rights in the individual way, as well as the collective way. Citizens can express their viewpoints and opinions through publishing works, or give voice to their own political views through the improvisational and short assembly, procession and demonstration.

Though Article 35 of the Constitution does not include the term “freedom of expression,” it contains various rights and freedom involving the normal operation of the modern democratic society; hence we can regard this group of rights and freedom as the right to freedom of expression, and name Article 35 of the Constitution as the article on freedom of expression.

You keep posting these things but again, virtually every human rights organization of note, strongly condemns China's LACK of human rights. I can assure you, similar flowery language could be found in Stalin's constitution, in Pol Pots, in China's under Mao, and not one world of that language kept those regimes from mass genocide against their own people. Now I am not saying that China today is anywhere as bad on human rights as it was under Mao, but I AM making the point, that all the constitutions with all the beautiful human rights language in the world, does not mean a darn thing if the regime and ONLY party allowed to govern, says it doesn't or ignores such language.

 

[nang2]

If Samuel Johnson said that...he is flat wrong. Once one believes they have a "right" to knock a man down, they will soon conclude they have a right to kill a man for expressing their ideas. You may think it moral. I do not.

Read my second quote of his words, if you have the patience and understanding. It elaborates more on the subject.

 

[Desertfalcon]

Read my second quote of his words, if you have the patience and understanding. It elaborates more on the subject.

"But, Sir, no member of a society has a right to teach any doctrine contrary to what the society holds to be true."-[Samuel Johnson]

Nope, he's still wrong. Brave members of American society, like Martin Luther King, taught doctrines that were contrary to what society held to be true; that blacks were inferior to whites and aught to be legally separated and discriminated against. Thank God Dr. King, his allies, and even those who came before him, prevailed in my country. A real man has a moral obligation to teach doctrines that are contrary to the what society holds to be true...when society holds views that are wrong.