Defining The Punjabi Taliban Network

[Hellfire]

"Which is the second largest Shi'ah country in the world?? Iraq or Pakistan?"

Iraq-26m total population. Pakistan-170m population. India-1,000,000,000+ total population.

I'll guess Pakistan. No google. The above should explain it.

i think india beats either ..... we sure have the largest muslim population outside indonesia and pakistan ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

 

[Elmo]

Our politicians are mostly people who are feudal lords and as a rule quite harsh to the people in their domain.
Closing the madrassas is not an option...regularizing them is the only way forward...you cannot close the doors of charity on the poor and needy who enroll their children in these charity institutions...this shall lead to even a bigger disaster...we had madrassas here since much before the Afghan war...never did we have a problem...problem arose with militant preachers from around the globe who were gathered to indoctrinate the Mujahidden whom all the world was supporting...problem arose when the loose ends were left as they were...the militants shifted their focus inwards towards their hosts

In summary...

the ones who should devise a long term anti Taliban.anti militancy strategy may not be able to come up with such a plan without compromising the vested interests of many members of their clan and political parties...which they shall not pursue

the ones who are more in tune with the people of Pakistan are actually not in a position to devise a strategy without perhaps desecrating the constitution of Pakistan, earning the mistrust/hate of most Pakistanis and risking conflict with much more than just Taliban...

Great post! But all-Green the Madrasah Reforms promulgated under Musharraf have failed in regularising these institutions... what do you say to that?

 

[All-Green]

Great post! But all-Green the Madrasah Reforms promulgated under Musharraf have failed in regularising these institutions... what do you say to that?

I cannot say whether any reforms are a failure till we get over the teething problems associated with such a process and give it the due time required. It shall be the long road to success, that i am sure of.

Correct me if i am wrong but I do not think any reforms are still being implemented or whether a coherent strategy is being followed in order to ensure that madrassas do not fall prey to militancy and all are regularized as per standards set by the GOP in light of recommendations by the Islamic council.
I have seen all governments including Musharraf's government ignore the Islamic Council and put their faith in worthless self proclaimed scholars like Maulvi Fazl Ur Rehman and co...this has to stop!

The reforms do not need a political or military face...that shall make it more controversial...
The face should be Islamic Council which is fully qualified, has diversity in representing all the major sects and has the due authority as per constitution to advise the government on all religious matters.
Even though many self centered Mullahs with vested interests shall protest; the presence of a respected body of qualified scholars shall ensure that valid answers and logic shall be given in light of Islam.

Everything should be transparent since we really do not have anything to hide in reforming the madrassas.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

i think india beats either ..... we sure have the largest muslim population outside indonesia and pakistan ....

Islam by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Major Shia populations:

Country - Shia Population - Shia to Muslim%

Iran - 59,122,063 - 91%

Pakistan - 35,248,590 - 21%

India - 20,000,000 - 20%

Iraq - 18,091,036 - 64%

Turkey - 15,330,383 - 20%

Demographics of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All green:

"the ones who should devise a long term anti Taliban.anti militancy strategy may not be able to come up with such a plan without compromising the vested interests of many members of their clan and political parties...which they shall not pursue

the ones who are more in tune with the people of Pakistan are actually not in a position to devise a strategy without perhaps desecrating the constitution of Pakistan, earning the mistrust/hate of most Pakistanis and risking conflict with much more than just Taliban..."

Spot on!

Which is why I keep arguing that the Military should not be pushed into a corner where it has to act unilaterally, because it will have negative repercussions in the long term.

Even if the criticism of the Army by some is well intentioned, it takes the spotlight and pressure off the elected representatives who are the ones that need to get their show together and start delivering.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

the presence of a respected body of qualified scholars shall ensure that valid answers and logic shall be given in light of Islam.

And on that note:

PM reconstitutes Council of Islamic Ideology​

Wednesday, May 06, 2009

By our correspondent

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani on Tuesday reconstituted the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) by appointing 12 new members.

The new members included Maulana Muhammad Siddique Hazarvi, Mufti Ghulam Mustafa Rizvi, Khwaja Sharif Muhammad Amir Koreja, Mufti Muhammad Ibrahim Qadri, Syed Saeed Ahmad Shah Gujrati, Maulana Muhammad Khan Sheerani, Dr Muhammad Idrees, Maulana Fazl Ali, Abu Al-Fateh Muhammad Yousuf, Shahida Akhtar Ali, Dr Anwar Hussain Siddiqui and Prof Dr Sabiha Qadri.

There are eight members already officiating in the CII, with Dr Khalid Masud as chairman and Dr Manzoor Ahmed, Justice (retd) Dr Munir Ahmed Mughal, Justice Dr Rashid Ahmed Jalandhri, Maulana Abdullah Khilji, Dr Moshin Muzzafar Naqvi, Syed Afzal Haider and Dr Faiz Bilqees as members.

According to the composition and terms of the CII, minimum eight and maximum 20 members (including chairman), representing various schools of thought, having knowledge of the principles and philosophy of Islam, as enunciated in the Holy Quran and Sunnah, or having understanding of the economic, political, legal or administrative problems of Pakistan, could be appointed as members.

At least, two of the members must be sitting or retired judges of the Supreme Court or high court. One member must be a woman, while at least four members should be scholars, who have been engaged in Islamic research/instruction for at least 15 years.

PM reconstitutes Council of Islamic Ideology

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A possible precursor to 'Islamic cover' for future reforms and the military operations, such as you suggested?

 

[Elmo]

And on that note:

PM reconstitutes Council of Islamic Ideology​

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A possible precursor to 'Islamic cover' for future reforms and the military operations, such as you suggested?

The CII has been around for ages. It has had a controversial existence since its constitution in '62 — more so personally for me because of its biased stance on women's issues (read: divorce and domestic violence). In fact it stirred controversy last year when it refused to give women the right to divorce. So yes I doubt its credentials, regardless of its members then or now. also by its own charter it does not need to have a fair represention of the different sects on its panel, so it's decisions will be difficult to accept or implement. The CII played little role in the sketching of the Madrassa Reforms.

@ all-green: I don't think you are clear on the madrassa reforms issue Here's a link from Asia Times online from 2007 (when Gen. Musharraf was still in power. I have put some extracts of interest here.

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - More muscle to Pakistan's madrassas

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In 2002, President General Pervez Musharraf warned that the greatest danger facing Pakistan came not from outside, but from Pakistan's own home-grown Islamist radicals - "a danger", he said, "that is eating us from within".

This danger, more than five years later, has assumed menacing proportions. The rapid escalation of violence orchestrated by Islamist extremists across Pakistan in recent times and cumulative efforts to further radicalize the country have now led Musharraf's military regime to revisit the idea of madrassa (seminary) reforms.

Most of the officially estimated 13,000 seminaries (unofficial estimates range between 15,000 and 25,000, and in some cases go as high as 40,000) in Pakistan, with an approximate enrollment of 1.5 million students, have squarely rejected the tentative reforms - in essence requiring the registration of madrassas and the maintenance of accounts, including records of domestic and foreign donors, as well as the teaching of "secular" subjects as part of the curriculum - initiated by the government in 2003.

They have opposed all changes, alleging that the reforms constituted a conspiracy to "secularize" (that is, de-Islamize) the education system at the behest of the United States. The networks and support structures of Islamist extremism in Pakistan, painstakingly constructed through the Pakistan-Afghanistan arc, have little evident interest in engaging with the president's "enlightened moderation".

Speaking on the status of education in Pakistan, Education Minister Javed Ashraf Qazi disclosed, at the Civil Service Academy in Lahore in the first week of April, that there were 5,459 madrassas in Punjab province; 2,843 in NWFP; 1,935 in Sindh; 1,193 in the Northern Areas; 769 in Balochistan; 586 in "Azad" (Pakistan-occupied) Kashmir; 135 in the Federally Administrated Tribal Areas; and 77 in the capital, Islamabad.

A majority of the extremist seminaries that preach and support militant violence follow the Deobandi sect and are associated with the Wafaq-ul-Madaris, the main confederacy of seminaries. According to the International Crisis Group (ICG), "The two factions of the Deobandi political parties, JUI-Fazlur Rehman [Jamaat-e-Ulema-Islam faction headed by Maulana Fazlur Rehman] and JUI-Samiul Haq, run over 65% of all madrassas in Pakistan." Rehman and Haq are widely considered to be the primary backers of the Taliban.

One of the principal instruments of reform and government regulation of madrassas was the proposed registration process. Equally important is the content of subjects taught to students. Aimed at mainstreaming these religious schools, the government had initiated efforts to introduce subjects such as English, general science and mathematics.

The ulema (religious leaders), however, claimed that the registration process was intended to curb the "independence and sovereignty" of madrassas and was, consequently, not acceptable. Five years after its inception, the Madrassa Reform Project has been an unambiguous failure


(skipped)

The madrassa, as a medium of radical Islam, knows too well that the Pakistani state is fragile. For instance, reports indicate that intelligence agencies have warned the government of potential suicide attacks if any military action is initiated against the pro-Taliban Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) and the Jamia Hafsa seminary in Islamabad.

A report submitted to the federal government disclosed:

These two buildings host a large number of trained suicide bombers and a reasonable stockpile of arms ... if any action is taken, they may retaliate with suicide attacks, resulting in heavy casualties ... Maulana Abdul Aziz, prayer leader of Lal Masjid, and his brother Abdul Rashid Ghazi, head of Jamia Hafsa, enjoy the complete backing of at least 18 religious seminaries located in the federal capital and receive constant support, in kind, from these seminaries.

The report also mentioned that suicide bombers involved in the January 26 attack on the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad and the February 6 attack at the parking lot of Islamabad International Airport were linked to the seminary.

Ominously, the report warns further, "The real cause of concern is that the number of would-be female suicide bombers is quite large compared [with] male students and, if action were to be taken, at least 150 casualties are feared."

Not surprisingly, Musharraf has publicly ruled out the use of force to address the crisis generated by students


[skipped]

The collapse of the seminary-reform project is a clear indication that Islamabad is either apathetic or does not have the capacity to dismantle the extremist infrastructure across the country. Summing up his country's mood, Shafqat Mahmood, a former member of Parliament, aptly noted: "Quiet seriously, we are in a terrible mess."

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The number of these seminaries is the highest at 5000 plus in the Punjab.

So has anyone been following this and knows its progress in 2009 — have the reforms been abandoned by the government for good?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The CII has been around for ages.

I know, but I was pointing to the fact that Gillani finally filled all 20 positions in the council, which may (or not) be a precursor to using the council to get cover for GoP actions.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It has had a controversial existence since its constitution in '62 — more so personally for me because of its biased stance on women's issues (read: divorce and domestic violence). In fact it stirred controversy last year when it refused to give women the right to divorce.

I understood the CII to have issued rulings that reformed divorce laws to the advantage of women? In fact, there was a hullabaloo by some of our esteemed parliamentarians who thought the CII recommendations were 'too progressive', and said they held no value since the CII was functioning with only 8 members.

Council of Islamic Ideology for changes in wedding and divorce laws
​

Sunday, 16 November 2008 07:59
The Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) has proposed fundamental changes in family laws, including a recommendation that a divorce demanded by a woman will take legal affect in case the husband fails to oblige after 90 days.

In a meeting chaired by the CII chairman Dr. Khalid Masood on Saturday, it was also recommended that divorce papers shall also be registered as the Nikahnama is filled under the law.

It has recommended that the bridegroom will declare his assets at the time of his first wedding and give complete details of his first wife and children in nikahnama when entering into a second marriage.

Similarly, the CII recommends that declaration of first divorce announced by the husband would be registered, following which the second and third declaration would seal the fate of marriage.

Another clause will be added in nikahnama by which the husband will assign right of divorce to the wife, the recommendations added.

Council of Islamic Ideology for changes in wedding and divorce laws | Pakistan Daily

 

[Elmo]

I know, but I was pointing to the fact that Gillani finally filled all 20 positions in the council, which may (or not) be a precursor to using the council to get cover for GoP actions.

The CII is a government of Pakistan body, provisioned under the Constitution. Filling 20 members makes no difference... its just routine

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The CII is a government of Pakistan body, provisioned under the Constitution. Filling 20 members makes no difference... its just routine

I understand that as well - the article mentions the CII can constitutionally function with as little as 8 members with a maximum of 20.

But I mentioned the number of members because that was an excused raised buy some members of our religious lobby and parliamentarians. Now I agree that constitutionally 8 members is not an issue, but for people opposed to reforms, any excuse will be fine, so perhaps appointing all 20 members removes one excuse related to the constitutionality of the CII recommendations.

 

[Elmo]

I understand that as well - the article mentions the CII can constitutionally function with as little as 8 members with a maximum of 20.

But I mentioned the number of members because that was an excused raised buy some members of our religious lobby and parliamentarians. Now I agree that constitutionally 8 members is not an issue, but for people opposed to reforms, any excuse will be fine, so perhaps appointing all 20 members removes one excuse related to the constitutionality of the CII recommendations.

How is this related to Madrassa Reforms and Talibanisation in the Punjab

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How is this related to Madrassa Reforms and Talibanisation in the Punjab

It's related to All Green's suggestion that the CII could be used as a means of pushing Madrassa reforms, since the GoP could claim religious cover for its actions, by pushing reforms under the aegis of the CII.

 

[shravan]

Demographics of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sir,

I saw the Reference for India.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html

It only mentiones total Muslim population of India so i think Wiki does not have the right figures..

The population of Shia: How many Shia are there in the world?

 

[Elmo]

I understood the CII to have issued rulings that reformed divorce laws to the advantage of women? In fact, there was a hullabaloo by some of our esteemed parliamentarians who thought the CII recommendations were 'too progressive', and said they held no value since the CII was functioning with only 8 members.

The CII later withdrew its recommendation... much to the chagrin of the women's rights activists. hence it stirred the controversy...