Defining The Punjabi Taliban Network

[All-Green]

Because you ARE confused.

Pakistan has used Islamist proxies as a counterweight to the Baloch nationalists for years.

Pakistan has never used any proxies to counter the self proclaimed Baloch nationalist organizations which are actually terrorist organizations.
What are you referring to?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

As much as the fata taliban issue has been in the limelight---so little has been talked about the siraiki taliban.

First of all, they are not punjabi---siraiki is a language in itself well identified and the siraikis acknowledge that as well.

The siraiki belt is a step child of punjab---the other punjab---the poor punjab---whereas most of the development and industry is fucntioning in other areas---the siraiki belt has been left to suffer on its own. Extreme poverty---more so than fata---lack of schools and industry---lack of oppurtunity---indeed that is the most explosive recipe for disaster found anywhere in the world---add to it fanaticism and give the students a directrion and purpose ( regardless of what it is, good or bad ) we have big big trouble brewing.

The siraiki taliban at present get their directives from those in fata---that is who they look upto and that is who they "hero worship". Once the fata issue is resolved, the siraiki taliban will mellow out as long as the govt takes steps to start up some kind of industry and put up some infra structure for the welbeing of the people.

The siraiki taliban live in flat plains---there are no places to run and hide, water and food is scarce, the heat a killer, the desert unforgiving. So, it gets easier to get them working with mainstream pakistan as compared to those in fata.

 

[MastanKhan]

Because you ARE confused.

Pakistan has used Islamist proxies as a counterweight to the Baloch nationalists for years.

Hi,

Eh---you just winged it---didn't you---baloch nationalists and islamists !!!!! You crack me up. So lets have another one.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

Hi,

Eh---you just winged it---didn't you---baloch nationalists and islamists !!!!! You crack me up. So lets have another one.

MK, after your Indian Parliament Conspiracy flight of imagination, I'd suggest that you don't accuse others of "winging it".

Now, lets get down to it:

DAWN.COM | Balochistan | Threat to secular Balochistan?

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Two respectable papers from your own country. Lets see what they have to say.

Dawn: (read the full article for a much better understanding)

After the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, the ISI-CIA-nexus enthusiastically exported this jihad from Quetta to Afghanistan. During the Taliban regime, Islamabad went overboard in its support for their rule in Kabul by setting up a telephone network, which became a part of the Pakistan telephone grid. Hence one could dial Kandahar from anywhere in Pakistan as a domestic call, with the same code as Quetta.

For Islamabad, the post-Taliban era coincided with the rise of the nationalistic insurgency in Balochistan. The Islamists were given protection in Quetta so that they could serve Islamabad’s interest against progressive and secular Baloch forces. The centre is confident that a bribed mullah is certain to serve as a reliable collaborator against the mounting Baloch nationalist movement.

In fact, over the past many years Quetta has been used as a training ground by the Taliban as they have been blowing up Internet cafes, music and CD shops in the city for long. There is growing fear that the Taliban can surface with a Swat-like showdown any time in the near future.

Secondly, the Lashkar-i-Jhangvi, another brainchild of the establishment, is out to crush democratic and secular forces in the conflict-ridden province. On Jan 26, the outlawed group killed the chairman of the Hazara Democratic Party (HDP) Hussain Ali Yousafi. Such attacks are likely to transform Quetta into an intolerant place where one would eventually have to be a practisng Sunni Muslim to clinch a ‘residential permit’ from the ‘custodians of Islam’.

The Talibanisation of Balochistan, a province which shares borders with Iran and Afghanistan, is going to be catastrophic. The policymakers in Islamabad should recognise that if the secular Baloch province falls into the hands of fanatics, it will not only jeopardise the integrity of the federation, but also cause unrest in the entire region.

This is from Guardian (UK):
Pakistan celebrates, Baluchistan mourns | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

The cultural conquest of Baluchistan also involves the Islamification of the traditionally more secular Baluch nation. A large number of religious schools have been funded by the Pakistani state, with a view to imposing Pakistan's harsher, more narrow-minded interpretation of Islam. This is fuelling fundamentalism.

Pakistan's war against Baluchistan is strengthening the position of the Taliban, who have exploited the unstable, strife-ridden situation to establish bases and influence in the region. From these bases, the Taliban terrorise the more liberal and secular Baluch people and seek to enforce the Talibanisation of Baluchistan. The Pakistani government mostly tolerates the Taliban, on the grounds that its presence acts as a second force to crush the Baluch people and weaken their struggle for independence.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Rabbit.Rabbit,

Ok---I read your post----but where does islamic proxies and baloch nationalist have a go at each other.

Baloch nationalists are no fools to take on the islamists---baloch insurgency has been typically confronted by the millitary. BNP has never complained by fighting the islamist.

Haza are not baloch. They are shia---that is a different conflict.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Rabbit Rabbit:

The piece from the Guardian has this as its title caption:

"Pakistan's shame is its violent annexation and oppression of the Baluch people."

Sorry, but after an opening like that, and the extremely biased and incorrect 'history' (if it can be called that) presented afterward, what shreds of objectivity can that article claim any more?

Not one source he uses to validate his arguments of 'atrocities' is a neutral or independent one.

The cultural conquest of Baluchistan also involves the Islamification of the traditionally more secular Baluch nation. A large number of religious schools have been funded by the Pakistani state, with a view to imposing Pakistan's harsher, more narrow-minded interpretation of Islam. This is fuelling fundamentalism.

Everyone else points out that the religious schools were funded by the Saudis and other Arabs, since when did the Pakistani state start doing this? Also, the author, without any supporting evidence tries to establish alinkage between the madrasa's used to supply the Mujahideen and later the Taliban in Afghanistan, with some attempt to suppress the militancy in Baluchistan.

Peter Tachell's article does not offer any evidence in support of your claim (not that it offers any evidence in support of any of the other outlandish claims he makes).

Now on to the Pakistani papers - Ejaz Haider's piece in the Daily Times is excellent (as usual), but he only mentions Sanaullah Baloch's allegation of Islamism being used to combat nationalism (again without any evidence to support that contention) in passing.

The first article does mention the growing Taliban threat in Balochistan, but it does not make any case in favor of the assertion that Pakistan has used 'Islamist proxies' to combat Baluch rebels. In fact, the arguments presented by the author suggest that this might be a possibility moving forward, given the spread of the Taliban and the lack of interest from the GoP in combating them.

On that last point however, the author does not factor in the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan and the related complications that insurgency poses for Pakistan, into why the Taliban presence in and around Quetta has gone unchallenged so far. The Afghan insurgency is in fact a far bigger reason for the presence of these groups than any 'strategy' to use them to combat the Baluch.

I still see no evidence that Pakistan has used, or plans to use, Islamist proxies to combat Baluch rebels.

 

[Zob]

ok Taliban have a stronghold in south....KANDAHAR,HELMAD....yet they prefer to go through vast areas controlled by US,NATO and northern alliance...and cross into PAKISTAN IN NWFP....when they can go south up into NWFP...yet they prefer to march into northern alliance stronghold and into pakistan....

S-2 you are right that ok point taken they cross over from quetta to kandhar back and forth back and forth over and over again....BUT....how the hell do they go and support TTP in the north....do they cross over all strongholds of nato,Afghan army,northern alliance....

or there is a mole somewhere....can the northern alliance be actually taking "revenge" for pakistan's role in helping taliban in the 90's and actually the TTP is funded by northern alliance....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

can the northern alliance be actually taking "revenge" for pakistan's role in helping taliban in the 90's and actually the TTP is funded by northern alliance....

Almost everyone in Afghanistan is helping/selling to anyone with money to spend.

A majority of the drugs and weapons funding and supplying the Taliban go out through both Iran and Northern Afghanistan (per Interpol) - both ostensibly 'enemies' of the Taliban.

 

[Zob]

thank you agnostic...that is the issue that pakistan should lobby that if you want us to handle these TTP boys you control thing that are under your control(i.e under US,NATO,AFGHAN ARMY) as well... you can't clap single handedly after all...so yes PAKISTAN needs to do its bit but so does the US,NATO AFGHAN ARMY.....

 

[S-2]

Zob,

You know well how the border is generally shaped. It's my personal belief that units operate within reasonable walking distance of trusted supply points and safe-houses/villages. Those networks may expand or contract somewhat but we probably don't see mass redeployments of militant groups from, say, the Quetta area up to Bajaur unless moving within the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan where such would be relatively safe.

Doing so from Kandahar, as example across the length of Afghanistan probably would be more difficult. Not impossible by any stretch, but with risk and avoidable so why bother? Cross from Kandahar into Quetta and travel safely and maybe comfortably up through the Waziristans-assuming the networks of tribes are on board with such.

Now, consider Bajaur. Americans in Konar will tell you that they see forces from Bajaur but that we also see arab, chechan, and uzbek forces from Uzbekistan that cross into Chitral and follow the Konar river south. Some head into Nuristan. Others into Konar. Some go east into Bajaur, I suspect.

This would be in addition to guys like Rehman and others whom are semi-local and operate back n' forth there. This way northeast (Pakitika, Paktia, Khost, Nangahar, Nuristan, Konar) is less taliban and more Haqqani/Hekmatyar guys.

So sanctuary is important and it's always no more than a few nights walk away from a battlefield where you're (to some degree) already among trusted associates and affiliated groups.

 

[Elmo]

Yes they are involved however the reason that you see the Talibanization in the tribal areas is because of the cultural affinity (Taliban belong to these areas) and as such people are more open to them than they would be in bigger and more settled areas of Pakistan. The level of education etc. is vastly different. Secondly, while Deobandis are definitely closer to the taliban in terms of ideology, the vast majority of people in Pakistan's settled areas adhere to the Barelvi school.

I think what has happened in FATA etc. cannot happen in Punjab and Sind. I am not saying that violence, suicide attacks etc. are not possible, however the takeover of entire areas is not a possibility. No way!

@Blain2: You skipped my second response to Bill Longley, it says what you are saying, except the conclusion is different. Here goes, "Hmm...firstly, the Taliban may not have popular support from the masses in the Punjab but their numbers and tactics are obviously overwhelming the existing security apparatus in the province. Popular support hasn't been able to turn the tide against them in the Frontier province, so I don't expect to see it happen elsewhere."

I wouldn't pin down their success to "cultural" affinity, "ethnic" would be a better word. Because culturally, there is very little shared between the Salafi movement led by the Taliban and the norms of the tribal society in the Frontier province. Whether we admit to it or not, radicalisation of southern Punjab has been happening — so the takeover need not be in the guise of the "Taliban"... that's just a dog-tag. Its the ideology one should be wary of.

as for what really is happening at the grass-roots, we can only guess — it was the same "dilli door hai" axiom that was applied to Frontier province and it failed us. Now there is no nook (except the Hazara Division) where they cannot be found. There is no harm in letting one's imagination rule, why wait for reality to hit one smack in the face.

 

[fatman17]

The elements of a rural-based class struggle seem present and much of the proselytizing rhetoric we've read of in Buner carries this same tinge. What's missing is a unifying platform across these disparate groups.

Dr. Abbas refers to the Egyptians and Arabs as the "chemists". Alchemy would seem more accurate but they clearly are looked to as the political theologians and moral compass of the movement. How that may be transformed into a mechanism for the salafi/deobandi governance of Pakistan is unclear as hell.

I'm uncertain, and I suspect most are also, as to how dramatically the Punjab may become radicalized. What's it's vulnerability, where, and why?

These punjabi militant organizations are semi-autonomous. That's tactically advantageous but these groups certainly suffer from any unified objectives with each other much less the TTP other than some commonality of religion?

"...the area from DI Kkan through to DG Khan, Bahawalpur is the area where this phenomenon is currently taking hold."

fatman17, can you describe how this "phenomenon" appears on the ground? Symptoms of it's presence in a community? I know where D.I. Khan is located. Are you extending due east to Lahore over the Indus river?

here is my understanding of it.....

S-2,

Without reading your link, this is what I have to report on the phenomenon of Thalibanisation of southern Punjab!

Not so! In fact far from it.

The reports of Taliban/militants distributing “leaflets” warning the local population of dire consequences if they don’t toe the Taliban line is actually the work of criminals who are using this guise to create fear amongst the local population. This area of DG Khan has a very poor law & order situation (just like most of Pakistan) and the Police is either over-stretched or on duty to protect the feudal lords of the area.

There are also reports of the madrassas or schools having links with the Taliban/militants. Out of a total of 500 schools, about 45 are suspected of these links. In fact the reality is that these 45 suspected madrassas offer “sanctuary” to Taliban/militants who for various reasons flee the FATA to these safe havens. (This has got to be stopped). This is the limit of their link. These madrassas/schools do not teach militant Islam to their students is not allowed to be recruited by the Taliban/militants.

The recent spate of suicide bombings in these areas are unfortunately sunni-shia religious war and not the work of Taliban/militants. Of the 22 suicide bombings which have taken place in the Punjab, 20 suicide bombers were from the FATA, 1 from Kashmir and only 1 from southern Punjab.

Personally I travel a lot in this area, working for my NGO and visit most of the small towns and cities of this area. There are no clear-cut signs of Taliban influence amongst the people. The video/music shops are playing their music, the barber shops are doing a roaring business, there is no “moral” police to be seen (typical Taliban traits these).

The people of DG Khan/DI Khan/Bahawalpur which makes up the southern belt of Punjab are poor, landless, illiterate but hardworking and resilient. They don’t have any militant traits or ambitions. Having said this, southern Punjab is still controlled by the feudal/political elite who own most of the land, and force these people to work on their farms. These people don’t even know what human rights means /or what they are.

Under these conditions, they are susceptible to “Talibanisation” if the govt. does not do its job of providing protection from the criminals, providing basic services like education, health and jobs.

What the govt. needs to do immediately is to improve the effectiveness of the police. Improve their intelligence gathering. The CID is not what it used to be in the past. Corruption and lethargy have stepped-in. the govt. has plans to form a ATF (anti-terrorist force) and upgrade the Elite units of the police, but due to lack of funds, these remain just what they are….plans.

In summary ignore the area and suffer the consequences.

 

[S-2]

Thanks for the superb response.

"Without reading your link..."

I encourage you to do so.

"this is what I have to report on the phenomenon of Thalibanisation of southern Punjab!

Not so! In fact far from it...There are no clear-cut signs of Taliban influence amongst the people."

My impression from afar suggest that when the music's over (...turn out the lights, turn out the lights-The Doors), the barber shops closed, and the womenfolk off the street, it's a bit late.

OTOH, resilency and hard work-ethic or otherwise, you seem to recognize some root cause for concern-if yet unexploited.

To that end, the local police would be the first line of defense. While ATF guys are groovy, it's the abilities of local cops to gitterdun that usually make things work.

"In fact the reality is that these 45 suspected madrassas offer “sanctuary” to Taliban/militants who for various reasons flee the FATA to these safe havens. (This has got to be stopped). This is the limit of their link. These madrassas/schools do not teach militant Islam to their students is not allowed to be recruited by the Taliban/militants..."

You'll forgive me if I say that those madrassas acting as sanctuary to FATA militants can't help but be militarized given the nature of the men and the susceptibility of these children. That's a tough one to swallow. In for a penny, in for a pound on this stuff.

Still, you'd like them to cease offering sanctuary? How about closing them? It might seem fair that they've revoked some sort of teaching by-law or license by harboring state criminals, no?

"Of the 22 suicide bombings which have taken place in the Punjab, 20 suicide bombers were from the FATA..."

I hadn't realized the level of sectarian violence in the Punjab between sunni-shia. Why the out-sourcing? Economic need in FATAland make these poor souls more available or ideological/theological motivation? Are the attacks evenly distributed between the two sects?

"Under these conditions, they are susceptible to “Talibanisation” if the govt. does not do its job of providing protection from the criminals, providing basic services like education, health and jobs."

You tell me- is this area one that could be saved with a rapid infusion of capital? Who's ready to receive such and put it to useful and efficient use? I strongly question civil aid at this point as it seems impossible to implement in N.A., NWFP, Baluchistan and the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan, leaving only Punjab and Sindh-the traditional state beneficiaries.

Still, here lies most of the country's population and here, perhaps, aid can still make a difference before the civil infrastructure is frightened off and all hope is lost.

So are you ready to receive civil aid and how would it be used? You're a GREAT choice to ask as you're out and about and see how these local communities are governed in these areas.

Thanks, fatman17.

 

[luoshan]

hmmm...so we are making these boys kill us...and take over us...because...??? ok i am confused.....

because Pakistan is not Islamic enough by Taliban standards.

 

[All-Green]

Our politicians are mostly people who are feudal lords and as a rule quite harsh to the people in their domain.
If one takes a look at the home villages and towns of most of our f ilthy rich politicians and Feudals, one is amazed at the level of deprivation which is prevalent there and despite the gazillions of rupees being made by their Feudal Lords...many Feudals even do not let the educational institutes to function properly, for fear of an emancipated society within their domain...these people do not offer much better in way of an option to the poor if faced with a decision to either choose Taliban or them...Taliban's brutal tactics have alienated them from a large part of Pakistanis but the uneducated ones are more susceptible especially in the backward areas where they do not enjoy that much freedom in their lives...these circumstances do pose a threat but it can be dealt with without much in the way of military actions...

The problem is not an ethnic or sectarian one in nature...core issues need to be addressed nationwide and many things require time and effort...a balance needs to be struck as to what we need to do immediately and what measures shall take time and patience on our part...for such long term measures we shall have to stick to our point of view regardless of any external pressure...a shortcut is not the solution in life and certainly when millions of lives are at stake, we cannot implement a half baked plan...

The issue is not of any province being neglected by the state as seen by many, In Pakistan there are many areas where there is education and industrialization and the people are emancipated and cannot be controlled and manipulated...Regardless of the province, wherever the feudals, nawabs, sardars, waderas etc hold sway, the populace may not enjoy much rights and freedom in their lives...this poses a long term threat of unrest though not necessarily Talibanization.

Now i come to the most tricky part which only a local can understand and appreciate...
Madrassas are the only institutions which cannot be suppressed by the Feudals and that to me is one of the complex factors which needs to be properly examined and decisions taken accordingly ..

Closing the madrassas is not an option...regularizing them is the only way forward...you cannot close the doors of charity on the poor and needy who enroll their children in these charity institutions...this shall lead to even a bigger disaster...we had madrassas here since much before the Afghan war...never did we have a problem...problem arose with militant preachers from around the globe who were gathered to indoctrinate the Mujahidden whom all the world was supporting...problem arose when the loose ends were left as they were...the militants shifted their focus inwards towards their hosts

The way i see it, nothing can challenge hold of the Feudals except the Army and the militants...in order to challenge the militants we need a comprehensive strategy which in the current parliament cannot be devised without Feudal interests in mind...this leads to most complex problem.

In Pakistan the Army is the only institute where even a person belonging to a backward family can become the highest ranked officer and become more powerful than the politicians/Feudals...
this is why the Army has always been looked upon by many to rescue them...the Army is at least recruited from the common man...in this lies the dilemma which has been there since long

Many deny it but the fact remains that when Musharraf took power...most of us were happy...i remembered people distributing sweets and rejoicing...

The problem is that if Army bypasses the state and takes direct action against the Feudal interests...the Feudals have enough of funding to instigate a rebellion in their strongholds based on nationalistic or ethnic propaganda and also gain some sort of foreign support...but still this can be controlled for some time...similar thing happened in Baluchistan as well...
However in the long run the militants produced by such actions will become more and more dangerous...they shall even reinforce the Taliban since all militants/outlaws etc. in Pakistan are being merged into TTP...TTP is an umbrella terrorist organization and guarantees funding and power to all its child entities...it is like a corporate giant taking over the small companies...

Every way i look at it, military can only play a secondary role as far as dealing with the entire set of problems is concerned...unless of course there is Marshall law...
Military will kill the enemies but that will not solve the entire problem and if there is blood spilled and no one to tend to the wounds of the nation... then all the bloody actions will actually backfire as far as addressing militancy and long term unrest is concerned...

I really sympathize with Gen. Kiyani...i think he has the toughest job in the world right now...the history, the circumstances, the lack of education, aversion to reality, the inadequacy of our ministers and the vested interests of the political elite of our country have ensured that once again Army is at a cross roads...

even sitting here with the luxury of not being responsible for my statements...i cannot come up with the cosmetic statement that i have faith in the politicians and democracy (in Pakistan)...i have more faith in the Army and believe me i hate to be in this position...


In summary...

the ones who should devise a long term anti Taliban.anti militancy strategy may not be able to come up with such a plan without compromising the vested interests of many members of their clan and political parties...which they shall not pursue

the ones who are more in tune with the people of Pakistan are actually not in a position to devise a strategy without perhaps desecrating the constitution of Pakistan, earning the mistrust/hate of most Pakistanis and risking conflict with much more than just Taliban...