Defence & civil N cooperation will dominate Francois Hollande's visit; cooperation on rail infra

[Abingdonboy]

It is better we take it forward in stages and incorporate new developments in future in tranches. As of now there is no imminent threat on our heads which would require us to break the bank.

Well I'm afraid there is and the threat is the depletion of the IAF's SQN strength. Without remdial action taken in the near future, by 2022 the IAF could be down to 22 or so combat SQNs (against a sanctioned strength of 42 where even this was felt to be insufficent and the Parliament standing commitee on defence declared the figure should be revised upwards to 45 by 2025). In 2022-4 the PAF alone will have around 22-3 fighter SQNs, forget about the PLAAF (they will have almost 3 times this figure). Weakness itself is a provocation, it promotes misadventures- talk softly and carry a big stick. How can India be taken seriously as a global player with such a pitiful conventional force? It is time to start acting like a global player.

The FGFA is nowhere to be seen, the LCA is coming on stream but later than expected, inital teething issues can be expected and anyway, it is meant to be little more than a point defence/interceptor- it is hardly going to be taking the fight to the enemy in their airspace as the IAF likes to fight. On top of that, by 2020, much of the MKI fleet will be at 40-50% of their lifespan and just about undertaking their MLUs, the Mirage 2000-I and MiG-29UPG will be almost used up and the Jags won't be far behind them.

Without a large scale Rafale buy now the IAF is just inviting trouble for itself in the long term (not even the long term but the near future). The tranche buy is not going to be an effective strategy given the long lead times faced with these things, place an order for a Rafale in 2017 and you'll be lucky to get it in 2020 and by that time you could have decomissioned 1-2 ENTIRE SQNs (MiG-21s and 27s will all be gone by 2020). It would be acceptable were you to go for a sizeable order intially (100+) and pick up tranches thereafter on a need basis but you can't go for small buy, small buy, small buy- this won't attest the depletion of SQN strength at all.

Those promoting an "all is well" or "wait and react" policy simply aren't grasping the extent of the looming crisis, whilst the IAF's foes are getting stronger and stronger, the IAF is bascially stagnating. The time for watching has passed, action needs to be taken and taken soon- this is not an issue that will simply work itself out with the passing of time, rather the opposite- it is just going to be compuounded the longer firm action isn't taken. Will it be costly? Of course it will be. India has foregone investment in this area for decades really (the MMRCA was conceived in the late 90s if you will remember) and the net result of chronic and endemic under-investment is apparent for all to see so the solution WILL be expensive- this is just something one has to swallow and accept as a reality.

But let's not forget the economic realities and not get caught up in the eye-watering total figures being speculated.

-$8-22BN whatever it is will be paid back over a period of at least a decade.
-By 2025 India will be the 3/4 largest economy in the world (nominal GDP will be $4-5TN USD)
-By 2025 India will be spending >$120BN USD a year on defence
-From 2014-2022 India will have >$300BN in CAPEX to spend on new equipment
-The FGFA project isn't anywhere to be seen so any overlap in funding between it and the Rafale will be minimal

Anyone telling you the India can't afford the Rafale and that too in large numbers is being intellectually dishonest. And if not spent on new fighters where exactly will this $300 BN CAPEX be spent?

@PARIKRAMA @anant_s @Taygibay @Vauban

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Dont expect much development on the military reactors. We are not at that stage of relationship with the French. May be if there was a 120+ order of Rafales to go along in one go with hefty down-payment of 20% coming out to be 7/8 Billion USD but no use living in the fantasy world. I know that hints were given but MoD rightly decided not to be impatient.

It is better we take it forward in stages and incorporate new developments in future in tranches. As of now there is no imminent threat on our heads which would require us to break the bank.

True, the N Reactor is a touchy subject for militaryuse.. France as a policy does not want to be a direct transferal of such tech to India.. Even though if we do buy Rafales as you rightly pointed out a huge number and back saddle with it some hefty money perhaps we may get access.. But then again the immediate CBGs needs SSNs and beyond INS Chakra the next lease of Kashalot is running a bit tipsy turvy for us.. The IAC1 is designated to be commissioned on 5th December 2018 on Navy day.. But we may at best see a handover formally and actually joining in 2019. Yet we do have a gap for the CBG needing SSN. if we say an SSK will perform that duty, the overall CBG speed has to be more in normal 10-12 Knots and max upto 18-20 Knots in order to have SSKs also perform the duty within their max speed of 20 Knots.

GOI and French government are still trying to see what best can be worked out.. Primarily bcz our budget for SSN is Rs 60000 Crs meaning all inclusive per sub at an average of 10000 Crs or $1.5 Bn max. That price is not possible with a Russian inspired design and a reactor homemade. Unless we up it by 50% and allocate say almost Rs 90,000 Crs the 6 SSN with this line of design and implementation is practically not possible.

I sincerely hope we can work out something from both sides and control our cost over runs.. Rs 60K Crs is a good amount.. Sizeable for any project and being strategic its implications are even more important.

I think i read something similar on BR.

BR
Can you cross post it.. Would be interesting to know some more on this.. I am unable to find any quantifiable evidence about we working on either a 125MW or a 150MW design..My own known people in BARC have not got approval for any new up gradation projects... Not even a basic rumour or as people say cigarette/tea stall gossip
Nor i could find any back saddling for a deal with multiple sources. Few pointed me to L&T Areva deal.. but not sure if its possible.. But then again L&T is deeply involved in our N fleet program.. So its possible via that way.. But again without French government agreeing its a big question mark..

I may be mistaken, but i suppose Brazil, is in talks with France to develop an N sub derived from Scorpene class boat.
It should be interesting to note what reactor France has offered them.
In Indian context, a large naval propulsion reactor, also assumes importance as similar design would power INS Vishal class ACs.
So perhaps India might want to explore a singular reliable design core, that can serve other purposes. This would help in simplifying, NSSS (Nuclear Steam Supply System) & subsequent Steam Turbine and propulsion as well from design and manufacturing POV, allowing fast induction of SSBN and AC parallel.

DCNS has a very strong presence in Brazil. So Submarines should not be an issue for them.. But DCNS’ role involves assistance with hull technology and construction, and with non-nuclear internal technologies.
The only difference is in the 5 sub deal, only the last sub is nuclear powered code named SN-BR-10. Due to non-proliferation and broader political sensitivities DCNS and Brazil claim that DCNS will not actually help Brazil place the reactor in SN-BR. This claim may be somewhat disputed due to the reactor being of partly French design and SN-BR perhaps being based on the French Barracuda SSN. Training of some Brazilian crew on French SSNs is likely - on Rubis-Amethyste SSNs and/or Barracudas.
No. Name Laid down Launched Commissioned Based
SN10 Álvaro Alberto maybe 2017 maybe 2022 maybe 2027 Itaguai, Sepetiba Bay
Brazil has medium-long term plans for 5-6 further SSNs if Álvaro Alberto is successful.

The interesting part is this
There currently appears to be expectations that SN-BR will be around 100m long and 9m wide. This coincides with France's Barracuda SSN dimensions of: 99.4 m long and beam: 8.8 m. The Barracuda , when launched around 2016-2017 will be 4,765 tons (surfaced) and 5,300 tons (submerged). Therefore the future SN-BR may have a similar displacement when launched in the early 2020s. The broader Brazilian nuclear submarine program involves Brazil's aim to fully enrich and shaping uranium for placement in the submarine reactor.

From around 2010 the currently proposed reactor is known as 2131-R Pressurized Water Reactor (PWR). France assisted in the reactor design, but the reactor itself will be built in Brazil . An earlier NTI article (first paragraph) talked of land-based test reactor RENAP-11 (of 11 MW), which may not yet have been developed. The submarine reactor itself may be of 48 MW noting that the French Rubis-Amethyste class SSN used a PWR reactor known as the K48 with an output of 48 MW. The Rubis weighs 2,400 tons (surfaced). At the upper end of the French scale the Barracuda SSN of 5,000 tons will have a 150 MW reactor. 150 MW would be very ambitious for a first generation indigenous submarine - noting India's INS Arihant publically relies on a 83 MW reactor.

Submarine Matters: Brazil's New Submarine Program (ProSub) and Australia - March 2015 Update

Now imagine a 48MW reactor powering SSN
See this excerpt
Álvaro Alberto should be able to spend three months at sea at a time, with a top speed of around 26 knots. It’ll be slightly larger than the under-construction Scorpene diesel submarines, however, in order to fit the reactor on board.
Brazil’s Nuclear Submarine Program at Risk After Corruption Scandal | Offiziere.ch

The Rubis is 2400 t (surfaced) and 2600 t (submerged) with top speed of 25Kn. From the angle of speed its same as SN10 but tonnage implies either the reactor is upgraded or the tonnage is not as high as Pete Coates thought about being analogous to Barracuda.. It looks more in the range of Rubis itself with a design of upgraded Scorpenes.

And this

The PWR reactor design for the Brazilian Navy’s future nuclear-powered submarine (SN-Br) has been completed.

A model of the design, known as the 2131-R, and an actual-size combustion element were on display at the navy’s stand at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro.
LAAD 2013: Brazil reveals submarine design details - News - Shephard

So the primary issue @anant_s is India already has almost double that reactor capacity in Arihant (83MW vs 48 MW). So a singular design core needs India to uprate from 83Mw towards 125 MW -150Mw and more.. The brazillian model being behind in terms of output means technology needs of India is more relatively newer reactor core versus Rubis core which is of early 1980s design.

What/who is your source?

Somebody from inside administrative folks in the government and other is a chief editor of a news channel

 

[Abingdonboy]

• French side is ready for being an outside consultant same like Russians side for Arihant reactor. But GOI does not want to wait for 10 years+ for reactor to be field tested and then into SSNs. Its aim is first SSN in 9-10 years around 2025-26 timeline Which is ambitious.

That is VERY ambitious.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

No way! $12BN for 36 jets, $333 million each is obviously what the French are charging

@PARIKRAMA

Small tit bit.. radiation hardwiring is there in the order .. To the most dissapointment of people Su30 MKI 42 who are upgraded for Brahmos does not have radiation hardwiring.. Now you know why 90% availability clause murmurs were heard..It implies that at least these 42 MKI equipped Brahmos will be for high value targets but without N warhead.... The Mirage upgrades includes hardwiring aspects too as per sources.

The issue is PM Modi is not the cause of this deal or the originator as popular belief is. Back in 2010, the erstwhile UPa 2 got two strange requests. One was SFC asking for 40 birds and other was Dassault ready to supply 40 birds outside of MMRCA. this was in June and september 2010 if i recall correctly.. You can find it in web. Thus, the genesis of this deal was from that timeline. UPA 2 slept over it bcz of their own "fiscal prudence stupidity". This is why now you see everything escalating.. the price and the numbers to meet current demand needs..

I am not going to quote any price but this deal will go through due to its strategic contours... Don know about timeline but as you can see it will be signed soon..

 

[Abingdonboy]

It should not effect as such .. As of what i am reading France needs orders to sustain and increase 30k new employment opportunities for next decade. the Rafales and scorpene follow on orders are whats being touted as one of the major contributors. The other being a possible rafale sale to another country and Mistral sale proposed to few countries. So its a win win for both sides.

There is an added impetus based on one more slightly off the record deal. Source says the following

• The SSN project of India is derived from two likely projects intermixed together. The first being the Russian N Subs which India has operated but the second being the Scorpene subs India is building in MDL.
• The SSN is expected to be around 5300 tonnes surfaced and 6000 tonnes submerged. Its a bit larger than the French Barracuda which is around 4700 tonnes surfaced and 5300 tonnes submerged.
• The larger size is owing to the domestic reactor size being a bit larger than the french N sub reactor.
• India has indicated its interest in a french reactor for 150 MW (K15) but not much progress is made as of now.
• The interest lies with the stepping up from the same reactor to power our SSBN larger size projects.
• There is a greater interest of adding the Akula learned technologies of Russian origins and design points amalgamated to design of French sub.
• The single hull design of Scorpene and its relative ease in construction and costs in MDL seems to have caught the fancy of our planners.
• Also the price estimates comes down considerably using such a methodology where present Scorpenes cost around $775-800 Mn, the SSN full fledged is estimated around $1.2-1.4 Bn per sub a 50-80% increase.
• A pure Russian design inspired N Sub will cost us around $ 1.8 Bn+ per Sub infact most reports indicates the latest Yasen sub costs around $2.4 Bn per sub (Yasen was the first inspiration for GOI for basically the design based on which SSN were supposed to be planned)
• French DCNS, French Government and Indian government are in a 3 way talk on this.
• All of them are ready for such a upgraded design of Scorpenes but when it comes to reactor the talks are a bit slow
• French side is ready for being an outside consultant same like Russians side for Arihant reactor. But GOI does not want to wait for 10 years+ for reactor to be field tested and then into SSNs. Its aim is first SSN in 9-10 years around 2025-26 timeline Which is ambitious.

+ @PARIKRAMA if all that you are saying is true- the Russians are going to be more than a little irked, in fact this is a signal any particualry "special relationship" with Russia is over. All of the above areas, Russia would once have enjoyed a complete monopoly on in India not too long ago. We have heard their whining in the face of losing open competitions as they could not meet either technical or LCC considerations compared to their Western counterparts and now even in strategic areas India is showing them the door?

I hate to say it, but the writing is on the wall for the FGFA, it could be game over on that front in the not too distant future.

The wind of change are blowing gentlemen (and women)

@anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Levina @acetophenol @Parul @SpArK @nair @AUSTERLITZ @janon @ranjeet @MilSpec @ayesha.a @Vauban

Small tit bit.. radiation hardwiring is there in the order .. To the most dissapointment of people Su30 MKI 42 who are upgraded for Brahmos does not have radiation hardwiring..

I've been saying this all along-the ability to launch ALCMs does not a strike fighter make. The MKI will NEVER be able to conduct the kind of low level deep penetration strike missions the IAF requires and especially for N-delivery- this is the Rafale's forté, the MKI just isn't certified nor designed to do so. The MKI is bred for air supramacy, I don't understand why people won't accept that- the IAF itself refers to it as their "air dominance" bird.

An IAF with high only numbers of MKIs and LCAs is a woefully unbalanced and inherently operationally limited force. I think far too many get caught up in the "medium" title of the MMRCA/Rafale and thus consider it to be a ranking system that sees it ahead of the LCA but behind the MKI. In any other airforce the Rafale would constitute the very top end of the fleet and would be conisdered a heavy fighter, the IAF just happens to have a super heavy weight fighter in the MKI but that doesn't imply it is superior to the Rafale in all catergories (or even most).

 

[PARIKRAMA]

+ @PARIKRAMA if all that you are saying is true- the Russians are going to be more than a little irked, in fact this is a signal any particualry "special relationship" with Russia is over. All of the above areas, Russia would once have enjoyed a complete monopoly on in India not too long ago. We have heard their whining in the face of losing open competitions as they could not meet either technical or LCC considerations compared to their Western counterparts and now even in strategic areas India is showing them the door?

I hate to say it, but the writing is on the wall for the FGFA, it could be game over on that front in the not too distant future.

The wind of change are blowing gentlemen (and women)

@anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Levina @acetophenol @Parul @SpArK @nair @AUSTERLITZ @janon @ranjeet @MilSpec @ayesha.a @Vauban

Bro, the issue is that economical considerations also bind us massively.. as i said if Yasen domestic costs $2-2.4Bn per sub, for India it iwll be more like $2.8-3Bn as the cost of reactor tech will be back saddled too. Now imagine a situation where the GOI gets a plan saying for the same price we may get 2 SSN from west (France) versus one from Russia.

As we are becoming economically better, the bargaining power or buyer is slowly creeping in .. the bargaining power of supplier from erstwhile USSR or Russia now dictated terms and India accepted. Slowly we are beginning to qeustion now.. The FGFA and MTA are few of the prime examples.. The Kashalot was requested for $1.5 Bn lease for 10 years whereas Chakra was 960Mn $... Now thats a 50% jump for a similar N Sub lease not that the Kashalot is superior to Chakra by a margin which dictates 50% jump in leasing price. This has caused MOD to go for more negotiations and slowdown projects.

There are other examples too like FGFA testing by IAF or MTA designs or even Talwars in last december being asked at almost $3Bn+ for 3 Ships from Russian yards whereas the original 3 costed just around $1Bn.. again that negotiation stalled.. The S400 system which India wanted with S500 missile of 77N6 was technically offered at higher price inspite of we going for a much larger number of longer ranged missiles and HTK ones too.. and on top this was linked to our FGFA contract signing.. Definitely some good issues are there.. All this is bargaining power of supplier..

Who can forget the Gorky/Baku saga when INS vikramaditya was coupled with Mig29K which are loved by IN but were at that moment an untested entity.. All for a hefty price escalation.

Now with changing times, slowly India with bargaining power of buyer is raising voice. Coupled with good relations to the west and other competitive products being available. We do need to sit with Russians and talk and sort out.. Or else slowly but surely we are diversifying from Russian systems to other countries weapons and armaments.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Bro, the issue is that economical considerations also bind us massively.. as i said if Yasen domestic costs $2-2.4Bn per sub, for India it iwll be more like $2.8-3Bn as the cost of reactor tech will be back saddled too. Now imagine a situation where the GOI gets a plan saying for the same price we may get 2 SSN from west (France) versus one from Russia.

As we are becoming economically better, the bargaining power or buyer is slowly creeping in .. the bargaining power of supplier from erstwhile USSR or Russia now dictated terms and India accepted. Slowly we are beginning to qeustion now.. The FGFA and MTA are few of the prime examples.. The Kashalot was requested for $1.5 Bn lease for 10 years whereas Chakra was 960Mn $... Now thats a 50% jump for a similar N Sub lease not that the Kashalot is superior to Chakra by a margin which dictates 50% jump in leasing price. This has caused MOD to go for more negotiations and slowdown projects.

There are other examples too like FGFA testing by IAF or MTA designs or even Talwars in last december being asked at almost $3Bn+ for 3 Ships from Russian yards whereas the original 3 costed just around $1Bn.. again that negotiation stalled.. The S400 system which India wanted with S500 missile of 77N6 was technically offered at higher price inspite of we going for a much larger number of longer ranged missiles and HTK ones too.. and on top this was linked to our FGFA contract signing.. Definitely some good issues are there.. All this is bargaining power of supplier..

Who can forget the Gorky/Baku saga when INS vikramaditya was coupled with Mig29K which are loved by IN but were at that moment an untested entity.. All for a hefty price escalation.

Now with changing times, slowly India with bargaining power of buyer is raising voice. Coupled with good relations to the west and other competitive products being available. We do need to sit with Russians and talk and sort out.. Or else slowly but surely we are diversifying from Russian systems to other countries weapons and armaments.

Hey bro, you are preaching to the choir. I have been questioning the Russian's motives and Indo-Russian relations/projects for a while now.

If it's true that the establishment in Delhi is now waking up to the fact that not only is Russia taking India for a ride but that they need to revalute the relationship then I couldn't be happier. What really turned me off the Russians was their response to facing a level playing field and we all know the end result 0-4 to Russia on merit (MRTT, Heavy lift, Heavy attack and RSH) but the GoI's intervention clawed back the RSH for them-inexplicably. Their outrage that India could do this to them was abhorent and rather eye-opening. And subsequently every single defence deal/JV with Russia has faced BOTH huge cost escalations and time delays- if not total failure (MRTA and looking more and more likely, the FGFA).

Competition should be welcomed, it forces all sides to "up their game" if Russia doesn't want to play then fine, they know where the door is....

The long held narrative is that Russia can't be dumped by India because they are willing to offer strategic products that no one else will (PWRs, 5th gen fighters, SSNs etc etc) but here, I think the French courting starts to make a lot of sense. The French are an advanced nation who match the US and Russia in most areas BUT unlike, say, Japan or the UK, are feircly independant and will work with India in a number of strategic arenas. France isn't a perfect replacement for Russia but it is damn near close enough and the prime consideration should be that India is not the India of the Cold War, it doesn't need a "big brother", it needs a friendship of equals to assist in certain areas for the short to intermediate term as it builds up its own base.

Here I think India and France can be better aligned than India and Russia, France just doesn't have the same attitude towards India as Russia did- the idea that India is a subordinate is entrenched in the Russian mindset and it will not change organically.

 

[Levina]

BR
Can you cross post it

I said...I think.
Anyways even if I find out the link I won't be able to post it here- forum rules you see. Let me check.

 

[Chanakyaa]

I think the signifcance of French soldiers participating in the R-day parade hasn't been fully expressed by the media (they are too focused on demonising the security forces I guess).

If one had to make a bet on May 15 2014 who's soldiers would be marching down Rajpath on 26 January 2016 I don't think many would have expected it to be French (although in hindsight it is clear to see why). A lot has been made of India's strategic outreach to Japan, the US and Israel but France has remained the dark horse throughout even if in retrospect the breadcrumbs are apparent. This isn't buissness as usual between India and France, they are trying to make this a strategic relationship and it will be interesting to see how this evolves. The scope for coopoeration (in all sectors) is immense.


@PARIKRAMA @Vauban @Taygibay @Levina @SpArK @ayesha.a @nair @Spectre @Bang Galore @AUSTERLITZ @Echo_419 @Koovie @scorpionx @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @Parul @MilSpec @kbd-raaf @mkb95 @AMCA @XiNiX @Roybot @IndoUS @janon

#1. You see, The Depth of Indo-Israeli, Indo-Japan, Indo-US and now , Indo-French Relatioship is being taken to levels like never before.

#2. Plz do make a note, that on a surprising turn of events, the regular "warmth" of Indo-Russian relations has now been given a fresh air of "realistic" vision. One can only speculate, but Its quite clear :

India will not make compromise to the "Quality" as far as defence is concerned.

#2 Indicates that the global "Modi" Phenomenon was not "about-to-happen" it was actually worked upon , one a on-to-one basis, by Modi and his team. Specifically on the Japanese and French Pitch.

Its a Positive, Very Positive Development. No Wonder, the presstitutes will shy from something thats "Postive" for Modi.
I remember, How "The Hindu" almost Ignored Modi's UK Speech and Coverage.

 

[[Bregs]]

+ @PARIKRAMA if all that you are saying is true- the Russians are going to be more than a little irked, in fact this is a signal any particualry "special relationship" with Russia is over. All of the above areas, Russia would once have enjoyed a complete monopoly on in India not too long ago. We have heard their whining in the face of losing open competitions as they could not meet either technical or LCC considerations compared to their Western counterparts and now even in strategic areas India is showing them the door?

I hate to say it, but the writing is on the wall for the FGFA, it could be game over on that front in the not too distant future.

The wind of change are blowing gentlemen (and women)

@anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Levina @acetophenol @Parul @SpArK @nair @AUSTERLITZ @janon @ranjeet @MilSpec @ayesha.a @Vauban


I've been saying this all along-the ability to launch ALCMs does not a strike fighter make. The MKI will NEVER be able to conduct the kind of low level deep penetration strike missions the IAF requires and especially for N-delivery- this is the Rafale's forté, the MKI just isn't certified nor designed to do so. The MKI is bred for air supramacy, I don't understand why people won't accept that- the IAF itself refers to it as their "air dominance" bird.

An IAF with high only numbers of MKIs and LCAs is a woefully unbalanced and inherently operationally limited force. I think far too many get caught up in the "medium" title of the MMRCA/Rafale and thus consider it to be a ranking system that sees it ahead of the LCA but behind the MKI. In any other airforce the Rafale would constitute the very top end of the fleet and would be conisdered a heavy fighter, the IAF just happens to have a super heavy weight fighter in the MKI but that doesn't imply it is superior to the Rafale in all catergories (or even most).

The effect of downfall of relation with Russia will have very far reaching damaging effects for india which will be seen in not far distant futire

 

[Abingdonboy]

The effect of downfall of relation with Russia will have very far reaching damaging effects for india which will be seen in not far distant futire

If offset with closer ties to France, Israel, Japan and , to an extent, the US I don't think so. In fact, I see the opposite- the Russians have taken India for a ride long enough and don't even compensate for this with flawless products (almost ever Russian product in Indian service has an abysmal availability record). The West are at least dependable from a quality perspective and with Russia now in decline (economically and poltically) it is a good time to jump ship.

 

[Chanakyaa]

If offset with closer ties to France, Israel, Japan and , to an extent, the US I don't think so. In fact, I see the opposite- the Russians have taken India for a ride long enough and don't even compensate for this with flawless products (almost ever Russian product in Indian service has an abysmal availability record). The West are at least dependable from a quality perspective and with Russia now in decline (economically and poltically) it is a good time to jump ship.

Well, another factor is China.
India will face / is facing a technologically superior china, which can only be counterd with superior ( western ) Weapons.

Its no longer 60s / 70s.
We are facing a nation ( economically / defence wise ) now only second to US ( almost ) !
We need to think different, use our money wisely.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Well, another factor is China.
India will face / is facing a technologically superior china, which can only be counterd with superior ( western ) Weapons.

Hmm, I still think the Russians are DECADES ahead of the Chinese in many critcal R&D areas BUT that is not enough of a reason to continue with the Russians because they simply mess India aroud too much and all those cloak and dagger games they like to play got old a long time ago. The West is also decades ahead of China but they also have the ability to translate this into tangible benefits for India whilst Russia simply relies on making big promises.

 

[Koovie]

This Republic day Parade is going to have a French flavor!
Images from Republic Day rehearsal at Rajpath, New Delhi
View attachment 288065 View attachment 288066 View attachment 288067 View attachment 288069 View attachment 288070 View attachment 288071

From #RDay rehearsals at Rajpath. Pix: MoD | Facebook




@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @Levina @nair @Echo_419

Amazing! A great sign of Indo-French cooperation and friendship

 

[Ahimsa]

French have upped the price of Rafale to 250 mill$/unit price which probably includes 10 yrs of spares with limited munitions minus Meteor missile package

IAF will be bankrupt after this deal---Indian govt should declare Pak-FA and Rafale as last 2 fighter jet sales

From now on wards, IAF must form its own design bureau on the lines of Indian navy and source all indigenous equipments!