Defence budget increased by Rs105b

[Emperor Palpatine]

Education is the most dangerous and potent weapon against terrorists..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sparklingway,

Reimbursements under CSF were about $500 million out of an outstanding $2 billion AFAIK ...

Also, CSF does not solely cover the cost of Pak MIl. operations, but also includes logistical services and products supplied by Pakistan to NATO forces, as explained in the article in the 'where did the 10 billion in aid go' thread.

If we still have about $1.5 billion outstanding under CSF, then depending upon the proportion of that amount that is logistical support for NATO, the GoP is in a pretty big hole.

 

[Durran3]

Education is the most dangerous and potent weapon against terrorists..

Although your correct.. where does that put people like Faisal Shahzad?

 

[sparklingway]

Reimbursements under CSF were about $500 million out of an outstanding $2 billion AFAIK ...

We've received 1.005 Bn out of our 1.4 Bn USD claims. Check this
Pakistan gets $1.005 bn from US under CSF

Also, CSF does not solely cover the cost of Pak MIl. operations, but also includes logistical services and products supplied by Pakistan to NATO forces.

I did not claim that the entire operations are supported by the CSF but a part of it is. The PSDP was cut by over a hundred billion rupees and the explanation given was that there wasn't enough fiscal space to accommodate a massive PSDP.

The military claimed that the entire operations were funded by its original budgetary allocations. As I pointed out earlier actual expenditures have exceeded allocations every year for the past 3 decades and I'm not going to entirely believe that the PSDP cuts weren't used to fund Rah e Rast and other ongoing operations. Don't tell me that you doubt that we were able to support Rah e Rast, Rah e Nijat and all other massive operations without going into a financial meltdown.

An increase of 33.7% in the defence budget is massive as we are not expecting a 33.7% increase in our federal budget. The fiscal deficit is alarming and the fiscal policy isn't allowing for development expenditure. We obviously need to find a balance between our defence budget and our development expenditure and while today we might assert that defence should be prioritized, history has shown that the development expenditure has never been at the forefront of policy making and has been a slave to our defence expenditure. Even if in times of relative peace the defence budget kept on inflating, even as a percentage of budgetary allocations, then when will be the time when we are able to prioritize things truly and not let this country be run like a security state? There's no tomorrow for that, it has to be today.

And I hope that I'm not labeled a traitor, not that you would do it but there are many.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We obviously need to find a balance between our defence budget and our development expenditure and while today we might assert that defence should be prioritized, history has shown that the development expenditure has never been at the forefront of policy making and has been a slave to our defence expenditure.

Thanks for the link on the CSF reimbursement, I missed that story.

Since you agree that defence currently needs to be prioritized given the terrorist threat plaguing the country, then I take it that your criticism is primarily directed at historical overspending on defence, and not the current defence budget increases, which are obviously needed.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

The Rupee has devalue, infect defense budget is just hardly making up for devaluation.

When government devalue currency imports get expensive like oil and spare parts.

Musharraf didn't devalue rupee so Oil bill was less and Defense budget was like frozen.

If GOP cut losses from PIA, Railway and Steel Mills there is enough money for education and health.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Oi haan ab to fojion ki bari ayashi he , Even a Cadet in PMA gets a salary of RS-21000. No wonder the young slot of Army proudly uses Mobile phones like Balckberry,Samsung-Corby and Nokia N97.

I have no idea from where you have gotten this figure, but a 2 year old serving Lieutenant gets a gross salary of 30,000/- that also when in the hard area, meaning Kashmir or Siachen area. This figure includes all the hard area allowances and stuff. In normal postings, th figure is further reduced.

In PMA a cadet hardly gets a 6-7000 amount that also after getting all the cuts, and whatever is left goes to the canteen bills and other stuff.

And nowadays, even students get 20-30K mobiles, from their own savings, from money given by parents, contributions by siblings.

Mobile is not the standard to check how much someone earns.

Do remember, in military, all cadets are not the sons of some poor man, good number of them come from good family backgrounds, meaning families which can support their sons during their time in PMA and then army also.

My own brother, even though has spent 2 years in the army, and all the tenure in hard area, has hardly a single penny in saving, as half his salary goes into his bills, as they have to pay for their food bill while serving, rest whatever left, he is spending on his uniforms, boots and other life related stuff.

 

[ice_man]

Oi haan ab to fojion ki bari ayashi he , Even a Cadet in PMA gets a salary of RS-21000. No wonder the young slot of Army proudly uses Mobile phones like Balckberry,Samsung-Corby and Nokia N97.

this is good! why?

reason being look at motor way police that is highly paid & can never be bribed! now that it cannot be bribed because of good salaries means they are not corruptible! if we raise the pay of our police & our military i am CONFIDENT corruption will decrease leading to a clap down on crime or army intervention in the country!


so:

Decrease inflation raise salaries & see the results!

 

[sparklingway]

 

[TaimiKhan]

I wonder where were such cartoons and criticism, when Musharaf had PSDP funds and education funds multiplied, while the defence budget was capped at nearly constant for quiet sometime. The education fund went from millions to Billions.

So after so many years defence budget being at constant, with rupee loosing nearly half its value compared to dollar, is this increase getting such objections.

Its pathetic, when people get to attack one part, while neglecting the whole other budget where we have soooooo much to improve and criticize at.

Disappointment.

 

[sparklingway]

I wonder where were such cartoons and criticism, when Musharaf had PSDP funds and education funds multiplied, while the defence budget was capped at nearly constant for quiet sometime. The education fund went from millions to Billions.

Political Cartoons are never complementary. I have never come across one not supposed to be critical.

Anyways, the PSDP didn't increase manyfold as a %age of GDP. As far as I remember, the biggest push in PSDP was in FY 07-08 and 08-09. I'll check my books tomorrow to be sure.

As for education, indeed the Federal Education expenditure increase manyfold (peaked at 2.7% of GDP but FYI it stood at 2.6% in 95-96 and then went down). Provincial expenditure, which is the major responsible for eduction across the country, never really took off.

So after so many years defence budget being at constant, with rupee loosing nearly half its value compared to dollar, is this increase getting such objections.

Why do you think it would not? You know the answer.

Anyways, I expected better from you than narrating tales of a heavenly budget from the last government's time. There is no point in comparing with previous budgets anyway. We have to prioritize our expenditures keeping in mind the importance of issues at hand rather than their historical value.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well as I said, instead of prioritizing the expenditures, why don't we atleast focus and work / discuss on better efficiency and productivity of the current expenditure heads.

Do the current funds all get utilized properly and efficiently ??

So why pointing the guns at just defence, why not other areas ??

Why not discussing how and where the education budget goes ?? How much goes to corruption, ghost schools, ghost teachers ??

Same goes to other areas.

Each MNA costs millions each year, they have 10Million each as expenditure budgets for their own areas for development purposes, why not talk about that. How is it utilized and how our MNAs, ministers spend govt money.

I know one senator personally, he has 4-5 official cars, all on petrol and even when he goes to his village for a week, his whole entourage goes to his village on govt petrol, worth hundred of thousands rupees, and it happens many times a year. Has 10 servants, all on govt pay list. PIA ticket discounts, going on umra or hajj on govt expenses, etc etc etc, just name it. And this guy whom I know, he is doing these all to his least capability, so imagine what are others doing. Anyone seen the Parliament speaker's new house being built at Ministers enclave, mind boggling.

I also knew a CM once, whose kids once a week or so used to go in the CM personal govt given passenger jet to Karachi to eat pizza hut or would order it and the plane used to bring it for them. This is what our politicians do.

So if these 450+ MNAs & Senators having such life styles based on govt funds. then you guys can do rest of the math. Leave aside the provincial ones.

So if that is what we should talk and discuss about more, not defence budget.

But sorry to be saying this, we have people here who are more interested in defence budget, rather not talking about the other ills which need more attention.

The army's generals and officer cadre are not spending that much, rather much much less compared to what our politicians and bureaucrats do.

One of the reason Army going into commercial business areas is to meet some of its expenses through that way, rather it generates tax for the govt itself.

So when we cover defence budget, we should discuss other sections also.

And am sorry for not delivering what someone had expected, but for that there are some reasons too.

 

[sparklingway]

This thread was about the defence budget. Open another thread and I'll be more than happy to discuss increasing productivity, efficiency and improving financial handling in all state institutions. Claims about the burden of the parliament are erroneous and based on conjectures, but this does not mean that their expenditures shouldn't being decreased. After debt financing and defence, we end up a poor country anyways.

As for the general debate that everybody likes to kick off about salaries, the creation of SPS for people working in NESCOM/KRL/IDS/All other concerned bodies is just another example of how public servants are treated. If the people in NESCOM can get an SPS for being supposedly better literate, why not the researchers at Fodder Research Institute, Sargodha or the ones at Pulses Research Institute Faisalabad or the poor souls at the Marine Fisheries Department? The disparity among salaries is clear. I can present documentary evidence about public sector salaries to support my views.

It's no wonder that a bright, articulate and perhaps cream-of-the-nation kid joins the DMG after much hard work and gets disgruntled when he manages to survive hand to mouth and is handed over little authority to change the world as he dreamed.

And please don't even go into the military's supposed justifications for indulging in commercialization. I don't want to enter boiling waters.

 

[TaimiKhan]

This thread was about the defence budget. Open another thread and I'll be more than happy to discuss increasing productivity, efficiency and improving financial handling in all state institutions.

Not required, as my point of view is, that we have people who love to open anything related to defence or its budget, but there is nothing concrete to be seen about other sections of the budget and their efficiency and productivity.

Reason being, we love to kick defence budget and armed forces arse, while neglecting others.

So my point is if people love to kick armed forces arse, then they should also discuss other points of the budget.

I have seen dozens of threads about defence budgets, but hardly once something about agri tax and its implementation, or how we waste our budget in other areas.

So am against this kind of attitude, cherry picking, some hate military, so keep firing at the military, while other areas go uncheck or undiscussed.

 

[sparklingway]

So my point is if people love to kick armed forces arse, then they should also discuss other points of the budget.

No, the political class has been the forever ready punching bag. Even in the times of totalitarian rules, the political class was the punching bag for the people.

Criticizing the role of military generals, questioning intentions, debating strategic objectives or going into financial inquiry all are considered tantamount to treason and heresy according to uber jingoistic people and hardly anybody survives the treatment handed out to him.

I have seen dozens of threads about defence budgets, but hardly once something about agri tax and its implementation, or how we waste our budget in other areas.

Open the VAT debate threads. Most indulge in avoiding VAT and including agriculture under existing GST. I have msyelf posted more than once on agri tax.

I've been here for not a very long time, but you have perhaps seen that I do not have a soft corner for the military and its expansive role in our state infrastructure. But this does not stop me or inhibit my inquiry into the failures of our political class, their corruption or even our social failures.