De-hyphenating India-Pakistan!!

[Gufi]

Shiv sena havent caused a single life in Pakistan???? Why are you bothered?? What way it is connected to Pakistan on Indian riots???? ( I am not accepting or supporting riot but trying to put things in perspective ) No one is bothered here when some political party is spewing venom agianst India..... We have problem only they try to kill Indians in India.....

No your theory of Pakistan doing nothing is very funny when your own country does nothing to those who call for all kinds of evil in Pakistan. How do we not know they fund the BLA and the TTP.
You are naive enough to believe it has no influence on your government policy?? the whole tough against Pakistan is the whole stand of this party of yours which has inflamed relations.
and you are saying it is okay if your own people cause unrest in your country and cause riots and incite people to act against minorities. That has no terrorism clauses attached to it ??or no one feels scared when they are beat in the street and are scared to eat meat outside ?? that is okay because it is Indian and no one should be banned for that because it is only Indian minorities suffering??
or is it easier to say do more to Pakistan and Indians get a free pass while they say all kinds of things?? where was your terrorism monitor when your ministers say terrorism be met with terrorism??

Lol, what Pigeon has got to do with what you quoted?? Scoring points should not be the motto on a discussion...... If that give you satisfction then let me agree that was embarrassing.... Can we move on?

It shows the mindset of the people of India, from the governance to security forces, from the media to the people, always ready to paint Pakistan in a bad light and accept anything said against it. If there were people who believed evil pigeon(and following the comments on the online news pages there were many) that shows the mentality that is present there

Was it is hard to understand what i said??? There are media houses who speculate, and it is you who blindly believe that you can do no wrong.....

No there is a difference between speculation and blind irrational finger pointing. It takes all of 20 seconds to speculate it was Pakistan. Very open to internal options I guess like you said, they considered it for a moment I guess.

 

[nForce]

Okay, good boy. Then send million flowers and Valentines cards to Pakistan? Show some affections, just little bit if you can.

I can't help if your mama doesn't love you. Try seeking attention elsewhere.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I have said this on multiple occasions, In the current situation, elimination of hostility between the two nations can only come from disengagement. In current scenario spending diplomatic capital in Pakistan is a waste of resources for India.

Very good idea sir ... But very impractical !


You poke us from Afghan soil?
You try to suppress IOK issue?


What happens next?

We ask you to resume dialogue ... You don't reply?

What option does that leave us ?

We poke you wherever it hurts "you" ...


Now the reality the bitter reality is that india is in no position to start a war ... Even if it wanted too... Why? Apart from the economy ... The reality is that Pak is too strong to take down ... Militarily aswell as it enjoys support (military support aswell as diplomatic support from M.E & even indias rival China)...

What option does it leave india than ? Nothing and nothing but dialogue ...


Also you people seem to think that Pak will somehow remain stuck in the economic mess and the WOT... That poor Paks economy will remain on its knees as mighty india prospers ? Does far from the reality.... Rewind a decade or two... india was in economic ahithol (pardon my Balochi), while Pak prospered... It took you decades to just reach equal per capita as Pak .. And only at a time when Pak had to face off massive issues like natural disasters .. Massive earthquakes,biblical floods and a WOT in our North...

Bad news .. The good ol sunny days are coming back... The war in the neighbourhood is dying .. In Pak it is breathing its last.... The Pakistani bandwagon is on th road to economic recovery ...

All in all ... No matter how much you shy away ... No matter how much you hate it... You will have to come to the dialogue table ... And trust me .. We are a very very patient nation ... And there shall be no "peace" till Kashmir issue is resolved by hook or crook!


@Gufi. @FaujiHistorian. Your opinion...

 

[I.R.A]

I wish that

• Farangiz / Ghoraz could have ruled this region for another century or two
• Kashmir had oil or diamonds too
• If partition was ever to happen then Pakistan had the same geographic location as that of New Zealand
• Jinnah could have another 4 years of his life
• Liaqat Ali Khan had went to USSR when he was presented with the opportunity
• The founding father of present day India was not Gandhi but the ideology that killed him

Well these are wishes only.

In my personal opinion current day Indians are no better than Pakistanis and Pakistanis are no better than Indians. India will remain toilet less for another century and we (Pakistanis who have toilets) will become toilet less in certain future. That is our fate. Sorry if someone got offended.

 

[third eye]

India-Pakistan rivalry is akin to sibling rivalry where India is considered the elder sibling and is often asked by the "elders" around to show patience.
Let's accept it that India and Pakistan can never be friends- I call it fait accompli. Our relations have touched new lows and thawing relations in not a solution...so let's freeze it completely.
It's a well known fact that India and Pakistan would prosper by leap and bounds if they stop concentrating on each other. But since India is always expected to take the first step, India should act smart.
What do I mean by "act smart"??
No, I don't mean getting "non-state actors" involved, au contrarie I mean let's slowly cut off our relations and stop depending on each other.

How can this be achieved???

• By downgrading the diplomatic relations- Pakistan and India are often named in the same breath, so first both the countries must stop getting associated with each other. Aman ki asha and Samjhauta express have not achieved any tangible results. On India's part, India can put Pakistan in Consular status and allow limited functioning of Pakistan embassy in India till (say) LeT mastermind agrees to send his voice sample to India. Pakistan can also take a similar step.
• Reducing our economic dependence: India's GDP is expected to grow 7% this year, Pakistan on the other hand is lagging behind, its economic growth is stagnant at 2%. Current trade volume between the 2 countries is less than $3 billion and the bulk of it is carried out through Dubai. Why take the trouble?? I don't know about Pakistan but India's trade volume with other countries is over $700billion. So do we have to travel the extra mile in the name of "Aman ki asha"?? A big fat No!!!
• Kashmir is (not) an issue: The UNSC resolution which gets talked about on international forums, and that which asks Paksitan to vacate Kashmir, and India to conduct plebiscite, is not an obligation. The two countries should accept the status quo and move on. Let's accept LOC as IB.
• Let's seal our borders: This would ensure zero infiltration of terrorists, terrorism is the major disruption to peace process in the region. Since trade volume would be close to nil, sealing borders should not be a biggie. Once the borders are sealed we'll have to spend lesser on our defences and the money can be re-routed for infrastructure building.... A win-win situation for both the countries.

I am sure in our real lives we all know ppl with whom we don't want to be friends but don't want to be known as their foes either, and with whom we maintain a cordial relation for the sake of formality.
This what I hope for, since I have given up on peace talks.

Let me begin by complimenting you for creating a thread which does not begin with a cut & paste job.

For once I read an original thought which is not aggressive or bad the eyes.

I am with you on downgrading ties to consular level , trade must happen only if Pak is interested . It would only make sense for Pak to trade with us - Lahore is closer to the industrial state of Punjab / Delhi than it is to Karachi port. However its their call.

What does India depend upon Pakistan for ? Pak does depend upon India for its water.

On Kashmir, I would like to add that besides all other reasons , Pak has queered the pitch by ceding a part of J&K to China. This makes 3 parties who own the land therefore makes is issue as alive as the Dodo.

Sealing borders is desirable but not achievable.

Re negotiating the IWT is also an option - part of stage two / three of pressure building.

In my experiance it is the Indian love for the British Raj that needs resolving. They need to get over that 1849 to 1947 affair. Stop deluding about the sphere called "India" that stretches from one corner of South Asia to another. The British built it. They left in 1947 and you guy's are not British.

It reminds me of the delusions the Germans had over "Uropa" being some exclusive domain that they could hold sway over. Stop finding tenous amorphous concepts like "culture" to suffocate us under this blanket you call "India".

We are us. You are you. So what if the British locked us up in open air prison for 98 years called "British India". We got freedom from that prison. You need to celebrate 1947 as well.

How India wishes to see itself ought not to be a concern to anyone but an Indian.

We do celebrate the fact that you are you.Thank God for that & the partition.Imagine a situation where Taliban would be operating & killing school children in say Trivandrum or Patna ?

 

[nForce]

@Gufi

You talk about trust deficit, you are saying India is not working with Pakistan, let me tell ample reasons for that. Historically, Pakistan has left literally no stones unturned to ensure that India does not trust Pakistan, although India has tried multiple times.

1. Back in October 1947, just a couple of months after independence, Pakistan attacks Kashmir, which is fine, but continued to do so with official support even after Kashmir acceded to India, thus sowing the seeds of mistrust. If Pakistan had waited just one or two months longer then probably Kashmir would have gone to Pakistan only. I sometimes wonder, what was the reason for such ambitious and yet juvenile planning. Did nobody think of tomorrow ? Liaquat Ali Khan knew, may be Jinnah knew at a later stage. Did they not think about how it shape India-Pakistan relations for future ?
Nehru stopped the war by going to UN, and Pakistanis still had the chance to win Kashmir, the biggest that Pakistan ever had or will have. That is plebiscite! Owing to imprudent Pakistani leaders, even that did not happen.

2. India was going through a difficult times in the 60s, one of the worst phases. There was food crisis everywhere. Nehru had developed a fear for military coup by looking at Pakistan and undermined the army for long time, which was taking its toll. US was systematically blocking resources to India in favour of Pakistan. And that was the time Pakistan broke India's trust yet again.

In 1965, India had invited the Pakistani Food and Agriculture Minister, Rana Abdul Hamid as the Chief Guest in Republic Day Parade in India, which is a great honour given by the largest Democracy in the World.
So, how does Pakistan respond to our honour and solidarity ? By trying to take advantage of India's weakness and waging a war!! So much for India honouring Pakistani Ministers and mutual trust and so on.

If one can find the most immature, foolish, unsuited and stupid politician in Pakistan's history, he will be Bhutto, who has done more damage to Pakistan single-handedly than any other.

Did you know, Pakistani troops crossed the border, in Operation Gibraltar, with guns in the ratio 1:3, that is one soldier carrying 3 guns, hoping locals will join the fight, something that never happened.

3. In 1999, the same story repeats..When our old Prime Minister Vajpayee was waving olive branch in Lahore, infiltration was already going in Kargil. Why the drama for peace process and bothering us ?

4. Zia's policy towards India, use of terrorism as a state policy.

5. Then you have these non-state actors. They are openly selling anti-India jihadi materials in all over Pakistan and training people. These people who were involved in Mumbai attacks came from Pakistan. But I'm surprised to see, while Pakistan says it is totally committed towards fighting terrorism, it can send it's jets, tanks, gunships, army divisons to fight the TTP, but not even a single police with a decent stick to fight those who affect India ?

That is just tantamount to supporting them as strategic assets. May be some other form of support is also there, I dont know.


And then you expect us to trust you ?

 

[Kaniska]

Indian hatred will be kept on the side when they start treating others without their superiority complex which will let things move smoothly.

Again, forget about what we do to our citizen ..be in Hindus or Muslims...They are my nations citizens...The point is we are not any way impacting you...Why are you so worried what we do to our people...This is the exact behaviors of your interference and opinion that does not go well with us...For a moment, I do not mind being called as a bad Indian guy..but again, i am bad with my people..not with nation Pakistan..?? So you have to explain why you are upset with Indians??? Are you upset because i do not treat Muslims well or you are upset because i have any issue with Pakistan...

See...i am just trying to narrow down, what is the factor that impacts Pakistan people???? In this entire narrative,i presented many facts. which is not really my personality...But my intent is to really understand the key thing which Pakistan do not like from me....


For me, I do not mind if Pakistan gets upset because Indian cause problem in them...But if Pakistan starts teaching how should i treat my Muslim citizens, it shows what is the mindset of Pakistan people which i always worried about...

 

[Gufi]

See...i am just trying to narrow down, what is the factor that impacts Pakistan people???? In this entire narrative,i presented many facts. which is not really my personality...But my intent is to really understand the key thing which Pakistan do not like from me....

Read all my posts on this thread, I have answered everything there. After that if you have any questions ask...

 

[Kaniska]

Again...i am not in a age where i just read only histroy books to understand my histroy...Again, whatever comments you have put is just based on your some assumptions...If your being frustrated answers the question, then i do not mind...but again, fact is the whatever happens to our lower caste people, it is our headache...We are taking caring of the social eveil of our Hindu religion with due course of time....That does not allow others to take a note and exploit them and converty them to other religion...

Any way...do not give examples of the Gandhi..I am not a big fan of him any way...He is the guy who messed up everything along with Nehru...So if you have to scold him...do with your pleasure...I do not mind it...

if you study human history, one of the most horrible violence occured on consistent basis wherever there was a caste system.

upper castes utterly destroyed raped and killed without mercy everytime lower castes got their head up.

And guess what caste system is enshrined only in one region and in only one religion.

So don't go about blaming Muslims vs. Hindu myths if you want to be an honest analyst. Thank you.




In 1947 only one small corner of British India saw the riots. Only in Punjab and only close to border districts.

It is a huge fallacy that somehow 1947 put the whole region in flames. No it was not like that. Almost 90%+ British India was rather peaceful (peaceful in the context of 1947 that is).




This again shows how modern Bharati nationalist youth has been kept ignorant about 1947.

Please quit sucking to the first grade sarkari school lollypop.

Gandhi and congress was never going to declare Shurdras and Muslims within central India as separate. Why?

Those Shudras and Muslims were already under their thumb, mostly treated as a lower caste except in few cases,.

In fact Gandhi went to great length to use Ambedkar and Azad as tools to spread false propaganda about oneness of Muslims and Harijans.

So modern day Bharat was supposed to be one single unit where lower castes were kept as lower castes for a long long time,


Please learn your true history.

only then you will be able to think in sane manner,.

It is sorry to see that your questions are devoid of any knowledge at all. Sorry I am not trying patronize you. Just expressing my frustration to see so much ignorance coupled with arrogance.

Peace

 

[third eye]

Now the reality the bitter reality is that india is in no position to start a war ... Even if it wanted too... Why? Apart from the economy ... The reality is that Pak is too strong to take down ... Militarily aswell as it enjoys support (military support aswell as diplomatic support from M.E & even indias rival China)...

Why are you guys forever stuck in the going to war & nukes issue. ?

It is not in Indian interests to go to war .The day it is - it will. As of now, Indian interests are being met by not going to war. Why should we start one & send our economy backwards at a time when its accelerating ?

Since China is dear to Pak hearts let me take the liberty of giving an example of them . China has sufficient clash of interests which would be sufficient to start at least a minor war anytime. It chooses not to because it is in a consolidation stage of development.

Now, why do you guys not realise you are already at war ?

A war where bullets need not fly , at least not across borders.

A war where your most coveted resource - The Nuke is of no use,

A war where you are compelled to borrow to stay competitive & spend on weapons at the cost of basics like education, power . This in turn creates Madrasas and power shortages which cause further social unrest and lack of industrialisation.

A war where your nation is getting compelled to offer itself in exchange for its financial security which is dependent upon your relevance to whom you offer your self to.

A war where your Armed forces spend close to 20 % of their resources in protecting themselves from their own citizens.

Oh.. the list is endless. If only you guys could see.

@Icarus ..FYI

 

[Gufi]

You talk about trust deficit, you are saying India is not working with Pakistan, let me tell ample reasons for that. Historically, Pakistan has left literally no stones unturned to ensure that India does not trust Pakistan, although India has tried multiple times.

I never said we need to build trust, I actually favour no trade and no relationship unless core issues are solved. Let India enjoy what it has reaped.
I never asked for trust building measures, I never wanted them and nor do I think Indians can ever trust Pakistanis with thei media working to build fear till pigeons are jailed and it is accepted and applauded.
The list of Indian wrongs are long, but a little Google will help you find your answer to each point of yours.

It is not in Indian interests to go to war .The day it is - it will. As of now, Indian interests are being met by not going to war.

It is in Indian interests to escalate things while Pakistan is busy on the other fronts. Means smaller response and show of brave Indian forces at the same time promoting the army and air force needs on the media on a more frequent basis. Pakistan does not have the red tape bureaucratic mechanism India does in weapon purchase or expenses, thus it is useless for Pakistan to escalate things at the border. Actually these border skirmishes are bad for Pakistan while it is busy in its terror operations. If it is not obvious to you what is happening nothing can be said to change your mind.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Why are you guys forever stuck in the going to war & nukes issue. ?

problems with comprehension?

It is not in Indian interests to go to war .The day it is - it will. As of now, Indian interests are being met by not going to war. Why should we start one & send our economy backwards at a time when its accelerating ?

Isn't that what I actually said?

Since China is dear to Pak hearts let me take the liberty of giving an example of them . China has sufficient clash of interests which would be sufficient to start at least a minor war anytime. It chooses not to because it is in a consolidation stage of development.

Did I say China was going to war?

Now, why do you guys not realise you are already at war ?

A war where bullets need not fly , at least not across borders.

A war where your most coveted resource - The Nuke is of no use,

A war where you are compelled to borrow to stay competitive & spend on weapons at the cost of basics like education, power . This in turn creates Madrasas and power shortages which cause further social unrest and lack of industrialisation.

A war where your nation is getting compelled to offer itself in exchange for its financial security which is dependent upon your relevance to whom you offer your self to.

A war where your Armed forces spend close to 20 % of their resources in protecting themselves from their own citizens.

Oh.. the list is endless. If only you guys could see.

@Icarus ..FYI

earth to mission Mars..

 

[HariPrasad]

I would suggest a sensible leader for India. Then again my views. some positive developments in Congress time, mostly because they didn't apply this so called 'aggressive attitude', Modi ji has taken against Pakistan. In return, this is hurting them. Note: back when congress was in govt, not as usual firing at borders or LOC, not as usual intense moments between the two countries. It's quite clear that Indian leadership has taken a very negative stance on Pakistan and it is not going the way they expected it to go. Modi needs to re-think his strategy and continue talks with Pakistan.
My views

Taking tit for tat stance is not negative. We have made it clear that we shall not tolerate the firing and killing of our soldiers on border. We shall retaliate. The problem with pakistan is that their army is not in their control. Whenever any possibility of good relation emerges, PA steps in to derail it. Historically it has been proved that PA has not allowed any effort to peace and friendship to be materialized. Our fake pseudo intellectual (In a tiny Minority now) often advocate Modi'd policy of Pakistan as a failure. I want to ask which Pakistan policy was a success? except that of Indira gandhi. PA must be conveyed a massage that we shall not always be at receiving end. If you do any mischief, you shall have your part of share. If it is anybody to blame than it is Pakistani army and neither India nor Pakistani government.

 

[ranjeet]

Terms like "unite", "hate", etc. are so 20th century.

Bhai jaan

move forward to 21st century for a change.

Pakistan like any nation state has some strong underlying factors to keep it together. Sure, we do consider "self preservation" as one of the aspects when dealing with Bharatis.

But this in itself is not the main source or pillar of our foundation.

Pakistanis do and will come together based on shared interests between its people. This is why our elections for many cycles are never based on "we'll crush Bharat".

Instead the main theme's are development, justice, and equality.

Off course Bharati elections do use "Hum Pakistan ko maarain gay", and from chai wala to sarkari baboos everyone repeats this mantar subha dopehr shaam.

Say 90 out of 100 Indian posters on a Pakistani Defense forums, do the same juntar mantar. your posts are a very good example of this madness.

So get some sense so you could do justice with your avatar aka ranjeet.

Obviously I am not saying that it's the hate against India which is keeping Pakistan united, there are many other factors as well. But "self preservation" as you put it is more of a bogey to keep Pakistan Army as the nucleus. We can agree to disagree.

As far as your elections not based on "we'll crush Bharat" it is only because Civilian government hardly has any say when it comes to India. Unfortunately they have to follow Pakistani Army.

Pakistan is discussed by our politicians only when it comes to cross border issues but if you believe Modi was voted in with such a huge mandate just because he will teach Pakistan a lesson, then let me tell you cant be much further from the truth.

PS. Thank you for the update on 20th century terms.

 

[Arsalan]

India-Pakistan rivalry is akin to sibling rivalry where India is considered the elder sibling and is often asked by the "elders" around to show patience.
Let's accept it that India and Pakistan can never be friends- I call it fait accompli. Our relations have touched new lows and thawing relations in not a solution...so let's freeze it completely.
It's a well known fact that India and Pakistan would prosper by leap and bounds if they stop concentrating on each other. But since India is always expected to take the first step, India should act smart.
What do I mean by "act smart"??
No, I don't mean getting "non-state actors" involved, au contrarie I mean let's slowly cut off our relations and stop depending on each other.

How can this be achieved???

• By downgrading the diplomatic relations- Pakistan and India are often named in the same breath, so first both the countries must stop getting associated with each other. Aman ki asha and Samjhauta express have not achieved any tangible results. On India's part, India can put Pakistan in Consular status and allow limited functioning of Pakistan embassy in India till (say) LeT mastermind agrees to send his voice sample to India. Pakistan can also take a similar step.
• Reducing our economic dependence: India's GDP is expected to grow 7% this year, Pakistan on the other hand is lagging behind, its economic growth is stagnant at 2%. Current trade volume between the 2 countries is less than $3 billion and the bulk of it is carried out through Dubai. Why take the trouble?? I don't know about Pakistan but India's trade volume with other countries is over $700billion. So do we have to travel the extra mile in the name of "Aman ki asha"?? A big fat No!!!
• Kashmir is (not) an issue: The UNSC resolution which gets talked about on international forums, and that which asks Paksitan to vacate Kashmir, and India to conduct plebiscite, is not an obligation. The two countries should accept the status quo and move on. Let's accept LOC as IB.
• Let's seal our borders: This would ensure zero infiltration of terrorists, terrorism is the major disruption to peace process in the region. Since trade volume would be close to nil, sealing borders should not be a biggie. Once the borders are sealed we'll have to spend lesser on our defences and the money can be re-routed for infrastructure building.... A win-win situation for both the countries.

I am sure in our real lives we all know ppl with whom we don't want to be friends but don't want to be known as their foes either, and with whom we maintain a cordial relation for the sake of formality.
This what I hope for, since I have given up on peace talks.

Well there can be four kind of solutions:

A - Solution Acceptable to Both parties
B- Solution to X Party
C- Solution acceptable to Y party
D- Solution acceptable to no one at all.

What you have proposed falls in "D" category dear.

We will have to learn to live together and up till now we have done nothing to learn this. It is all talk and nothing practical, nothing form both sides.