Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

It will be quite interesting to see who wins, IAF or MOD..
Coz If I have to bring thsi topic, i will say even after IAF selected Airbus as the future air refueller, even after MOD approving, MOF rejected it....and man, they have a point, why such high price for a refueller???..

Because it is clearly more capable, check this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/619149-post31.html


Imo IAF is to blame because of the delays in the tanker competition, they didn't set the requirements correctly and that's why they evaluated a pure tanker that can only refuel with probes, with a multi role transport tanker, that can refuel with probes and boom (which means all aircrafts of IAF and IN including P8I)!

hi Gogbot -


I will not completely agree with this, what if IAF being impressed by Gripen and seeing LCA Tejas been so close to Gripen, may rise some interest in them to bring the Tejas closer to Gripen standard, possibility? and then with the TOT acquired through Gripen may somehow be infused to LCA programe to materialize MK2 much quicker than expected...

Its my logic. however I would want rafale to be in our color-), But what Prateek says is not also completely wrong...

LCA can't benefit much from Gripen NG, because it can't offer much ToT, nor important parts that LCA MK2 is lacking like AESA radar, IRST, or engines. Exactly these parts are from foreign countries in the Gripen NG too and must be cleared by them first, before they can be provided to LCA.

 

[sancho]

And only Air-Force will decide who to take in short-list , if they see F16,F18,Mig35 as only possible candidates .
Even if MoD wants Rafale or Gripen they can go to H*** , chose from those three only .

Ball is in court of IAF , and they are best ones to pick fighter which fills their needs . Extra points dosen't count

Not completely, IAF sets the technical requirements and if one of the fighter does not fullfil it, they can reject it. However, like in all fighter competitions all over the world it will be the MoD that evaluates all points and will take a decision. This will include the technical requirements of IAF of course, but also additional points like gogbot, or I mentioned before.

 

[Dash]

Because it is clearly more capable, check this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/619149-post31.html

I know that Sancho. and I also said, IAF solely to blame on this. may be the home work wasnt upto the mark or whatever.

LCA can't benefit much from Gripen NG, because it can't offer much ToT, nor important parts that LCA MK2 is lacking like AESA radar, IRST, or engines. Exactly these parts are from foreign countries in the Gripen NG too and must be cleared by them first, before they can be provided to LCA.

however that was my optimism. But you cant even say that we cant benifit at all. We can get benifts. not all out there in Gripen is American component, if US doesnt permit then other will permit. And the countries know that Saab is bidding, may be SAAB has previous arrangements with them!!!...May be SAAB has previous arrangement with US!!...A company just wont bid marketting its TOT when they know that they cant offer. That sound illogical..

however LAC can gain from AESA radar, and till date we have issue with data linking, may be Gripen with an excellent data link system can offer some advantage. No knowledge gained is small...!!!..

i am not so much in favor of Gripen, what Iam just saying is, Gripen doesnt fit the criteria at all?, LCA will suffer from it...

Completely wrong...

 

[sancho]

however that was my optimism. But you cant even say that we cant benifit at all. We can get benifts. not all out there in Gripen is American component, if US doesnt permit then other will permit. And the countries know that Saab is bidding, may be SAAB has previous arrangements with them!!!...May be SAAB has previous arrangement with US!!...A company just wont bid marketting its TOT when they know that they cant offer. That sound illogical..

They have agreements about selling the fighter including the foreign parts, but they are bound to the end user agreements too and without the ok of US for engine for example they can't do anything! Brazil for example couldn't sell their own Tucano trainers to some nations, because the US which supplied the engines, didn't agreed and ToT is even more difficult! Why should the US provide ToT to India via Gripen NG, when we could also by an US fighter with ToT?
Same goes for Selsex Galileo (Italian/British), why should they provide ToT, if they would love to sell us their EF with the same radar?
The point is, they all want to make money and if the Gripen could be a reason why their fighters can't win, they will block ToT, or even the whole sale like we already saw when US vetoed an Israeli radar, or France rejected RBE 2 for Gripen NG.
That is politics, when the EF was out in Brazil and it was obvious that ToT and a strategic partnership was important to win (which Saab and Sweden can't offer) suddenly UK supported them and was ready to provide ToT of that radar. It would be the same in MMRCA if EF is out, but as long as they have chances, Gripen NG is a competitor and not a friend.

however LAC can gain from AESA radar, and till date we have issue with data linking, may be Gripen with an excellent data link system can offer some advantage. No knowledge gained is small...!!!..

i am not so much in favor of Gripen, what Iam just saying is, Gripen doesnt fit the criteria at all?, LCA will suffer from it...

Completely wrong...

As I mentioned above, without the Italy and UK agreeing, Sweden can't offer us anything from that radar, but I agree to the data links. Anyway, compared to Rafale, or EF that can offer us way more ToT of different techs and even specific parts for MMRCA and LCA, data links alone is not much right?

I like the Gripen NG actually, but I agree to gogbot and say that its induction would clearly stop the improvement of LCA!
Why would you waste more money and time on improving it to a level that Gripen NG already has?
It would be like LCA = Mig 21 and Gripen NG = Mirage 2000, but the problem is, if we focus on LCA, we could bring it easily on a similar level as Gripen NG, because it has the same potential. LCA is simply too close to Gripen, Rafale, F18SH, or EF instead are in a total different class and also clearly more capable, that's why buying them would have less influence on the improvement of LCA.

 

[Dash]

They have agreements about selling the fighter including the foreign parts, but they are bound to the end user agreements too and without the ok of US for engine for example they can't do anything! Brazil for example couldn't sell their own Tucano trainers to some nations, because the US which supplied the engines, didn't agreed and ToT is even more difficult! Why should the US provide ToT to India via Gripen NG, when we could also by an US fighter with ToT?
Same goes for Selsex Galileo (Italian/British), why should they provide ToT, if they would love to sell us their EF with the same radar?
The point is, they all want to make money and if the Gripen could be a reason why their fighters can't win, they will block ToT, or even the whole sale like we already saw when US vetoed an Israeli radar, or France rejected RBE 2 for Gripen NG.
That is politics, when the EF was out in Brazil and it was obvious that ToT and a strategic partnership was important to win (which Saab and Sweden can't offer) suddenly UK supported them and was ready to provide ToT of that radar. It would be the same in MMRCA if EF is out, but as long as they have chances, Gripen NG is a competitor and not a friend.

This is getting hotter....
Ok I will argue here that you are somewhat trying to give evdences to support your own conclusion of Gripen coming in the way of LCA. However developement of Arjun couldnt be stopped by T-90 so that gives me a confidence that there are no links btn LCA and Gripen.

In fact there is no link btn LCA and any of the MRCA contenders. As far we could go to LCA Mk2 which can only be fielded by 2015, by the same time we will be getting MRCA planes....See there is no linkage...

I cant be wrong in saying that for all possible avionics and engine for LCA MK2 and further we already have tied ourselves up with some or the other foreign partners. Looking even at engine, Lets says GE F414 or EJ, this is also fixed. MCA will have or possibly have kaveri for which France is helping us..

So we have already far too ahead, and thanks to somebody who has framed out how we will develop our own fighter, even if there were no MRCA...its no link. Every bit of LCA which is under developement is already preplanned, and no body actually saw MRCA as contributor in LCA program!!..

It can only be a multiplier at best and thats all, something like a value addition.

See Sancho, I am not favoring any aircraft or nither Iam undermining any aircraft. Each one here is a capable aircraft and we all know that. I would always say we dont have much gain if we buy Gripen. BUt I still dont see this as an obstacle in developement of LCA.

Theough US has blocked Venezuela and some other countries from getting tucanos, it also has sold this aircraft to Chile and Columbian airforce...I would agree to "some" extent that US can block things India, But what are the chances?

India has gone past to the stage where it simply cant be ignored. Everybody is eying business with India. There is a difference in refusing Venezuela and there is a difference between ignoring India. Will US, UK or even Italy do that.

We have all known to the fact that this MRCA has surpassed to a level of geopolitical game. So when we talk about that stopping Sweden from selling the TOT (after all we know what is TOT, huh)...will have political remifications in its own state. Something India will not remain silent about and the relationship will bear a black mark and may run into trouble..

Just think will US,UK and Italy will want to hurt the relationship just for a reason that they couldnt sell a figher plane?, doesnt make sense to me. Its not business. Its politics again....The game is played in the lavel of Politics is much higher and complex than political game played btn states.

Imagine entire deal is a sitting duck for US not giving the TOT!!!!

That will be big blow to a blossoming relationship. Where US interests are just bigger than selling figher planes to India. Its simply much beyond that.

How much foreign part does Typhoon include, how much TOT we will get when we buy F-18 or F-16, how much TOT will we get in, so called improving LCA buy buying rafale from France?

Long time ago there were LGB for Mirages. One day in pokhran when the bombs were getting tested, the pylons wouldnt open and bombs werent released...We got a TOT on that bomb...

Everybody wondered why the bombs arent dropping...Did I forget that that the French forgot to provide the source code to make the bomb compatible with the plane?.....I wonder...!!

The whole TOT is just a eye wash...LCA developement is a different game all togather..LCA and MRCA planes, which ever it is, is not linked at all....

 

[KEETARP]

The whole TOT is just a eye wash...LCA developement is a different game all togather..LCA and MRCA planes, which ever it is, is not linked at all....

^^^^^Great point and post

But Dash , its of no help . If a person has made up his mind that LCA is equal or better than Gripen , we cant do anything .
Gripen is a threat to LCA is then just baseless , if LCA is so good why would Gripen pose a threat .
Tejas's plight or merit dosen't rest's on Gripen . Requirement and shortage of LCA is such , even if you order 200 Gripen , to make up falling numbers LCA still needs to be inducted in nos more than 200 .

It can only help , make LCA even more advanced . Why dont u look at LUH program HAL said in 2005 they can make LUH in 3 years time , still IAF decided to go two-way .
Buy similar machine from from Europe and HAL , LUH later . If eurocopter and LUH can co-exist , why not Tejas and gripen .
Don't bring time issue in between bcoz if it was this Tender wouldn't have got cancelled and is on verge of it again . By the time next Trials end LUH would be flying

We will talk about it in detail when MCA flies and FGFA starts production in2020 , then we will ask why inducting FGFA its a waste and will kill MCA .

 

[Prometheus]

Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order this month

Berlin: European aerospace consortium Eurofighter GmbH will submit its bid price this month for hard-selling 126 of its advanced fourth generation fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF), a top consortium official said Wednesday.

Eurofighter completed the field evaluation trials of its medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) Typhoon in April.

"We are submitting our bid to the Indian government for the IAF order later this month. The flight trials of the supersonic strike fighter have been successfully completed in two phases, which began in February," Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini said.

The consortium is one of the six contenders for the prestigious IAF order, estimated to be about $10 billion.

The IAF plans to acquire 18 of these in ready-to-fly condition, with the remaining 118 being manufactured by the Indian defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under technology transfer and licensed production, to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 fleet and enhance its strike capability.

The US-based Lockheed Martin F-16s and Boeing's F/A-18IN Super Hornet, French D'Assault's Rafale, Swiss SAAB's Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are the other five bidders for the MMRCA order.

"We had demonstrated Typhoon's outstanding operational capabilities during the flight trials when experienced IAF test pilots flew two of them under specific Indian conditions starting in Bangalore Feb 22," Casolini said at the 100th Berlin International Air Show on the outskirts of the German capital.

The IAF has formed two teams of two test pilots each for flight trials. In the first phase, the technical evaluation was completed in early 2009 after the six vendors responded to its request for proposals (RFP) in 2008.

The fortnight trials included flying the twin-engine Typhoons at Jaisalmer in Rajasthan and Leh in the northern border state of Jammu & Kashmir to demonstrate its desert and high altitude capabilities in early March.

In the run-up to the trials, the shortlisted IAF test pilots and engineers had undergone extensive training in Germany.

"The final phase of flight trials were conducted in Europe to test the fighter's cutting edge weapons systems and advanced sensors. The exercises included dropping precision guided munitions and launching air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles," Casolini added.

Eurofighter used two Typhoons of the German Air Force's squadron 73, which is based at Laage in northern Germany.

The consortium flew in three twin engine canard-delta wing Typhoons to the Bangalore international air show (Aero India) in Feb 2009 to showcase its awesome strike capabilities.

As the new generation real multi-role/swing-role combat aircraft, 220 Typhoons are already in service with the air forces of six nations - Germany, Italy, Spain, Britain, Austria and Saudi Arabia.

The Eurofighter consortium consists of four partner firms Alenia Aeronautica/Finmeccanica in Italy, BAE Systems in Britain, EADS CASA in Spain and EADS Deutschland in Germany.Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order this month

 

[sudhir007]

ILA: Diehl, EADS give Hope to Indian Eurofighter campaign

Diehl BGT Defence and EADS are offering Germany's Hope and Hosbo glide weapons to potential buyers, including as part of a proposed Eurofighter Typhoon package for the Indian air force. Previously released from a Panavia Tornado during successful flight trials with Germany's WTD 91 test centre, the air-to-surface weapons were the subject of loading trials at EADS's Manching site near Munich in April. The company is heading the Eurofighter consortium's campaign for India's medium multirole combat aircraft contest, which seeks 126 fighters

 

[gogbot]

hi Gogbot -
I will not completely agree with this, what if IAF being impressed by Gripen and seeing LCA Tejas been so close to Gripen, may rise some interest in them to bring the Tejas closer to Gripen standard, possibility? and then with the TOT acquired through Gripen may somehow be infused to LCA programe to materialize MK2 much quicker than expected...

Its my logic. however I would want rafale to be in our color-), But what Prateek says is not also completely wrong...

That's an optimistic scenario , that is also possible.
But the Arjun development saga, has left me with a bitter taste.

Again i want to stress it's not so much what the Griphen will do to the Tejas program.

But the kind of reaction the IAF may have. It's a concern that if they have more single engine fighters of the same class , same role and almost same everything.

The need for the number of Tejas aircraft will decrease

If T-90 couldnt kill Arjun programe then Gripen cant not kill Tejas program. Developement on self reliance and national security are two different roads and I think GOI is has started understanding this.

How many Arjun do we have , at best 248

What happened to the thousands of orders .

The Arjun came back when a last ditch attempt was made to expose the Indian Army's folly.

Had the Comparitive trials , which took 3 years from suggestion to actual trial, Not happened. Where would the Arjun be today.

At least we can be happy that the Arjun has been proven as good tank. Contrary to all Indian army claims.

But the damage done to its reputation can never be repaired.

The Arjun wont be seeing orders in the 1000's any time soon.

Arjun is still alive , but the induction of the T-90 has dealt the tank sever damage.

But Dash , its of no help . If a person has made up his mind that LCA is equal or better than Gripen , we cant do anything .

You have the expectation that Gripen is naturally going to be superior to the Tejas's .

Educate me on the finer points then,

Why can't the Tejas do everything that the Gripen can do
where is it lacking and why do we need the Gripen ?

But , what ever your answer is and i would like to hear it

TEjas and Gripen compete and are equal on one very important factor economy.
Both planes are relatively cheap , easy to maintain , easy to make and fairly sophisticated , Gripen may be more so then tejas.

That is where the competition , and collision of requirements occur.

Gripen is a threat to LCA is then just baseless , if LCA is so good why would Gripen pose a threat .
Tejas's plight or merit dosen't rest's on Gripen . Requirement and shortage of LCA is such , even if you order 200 Gripen , to make up falling numbers LCA still needs to be inducted in nos more than 200 .

I said it my self , the Tejas program does not depend on the gripen.

But i assert my point Gripen has an effect on the Tejas platform , at the very least on a perception bases

It is navity to say the Gripen plane does not factor into the Tejas program at all.

Even if its small chance , i would prefer not to take that list, The import lobby's effect on the Arjun program was plain to see for everyone.

However this is not the Arjun , The tejas project has much better backers and support. Inducting Gripen wont do anything initially.

But in the medium term , can the IAF officers ensure that the Tejas gets the benefit higher requirements and not the negative of unfounded favouritism.

All it take is a few officers preferring the Gripen over the Tejas .Wgi knows what kind of decision could be made as a result.

The Tejas and Gripen as the same class of jet , and have the appeal of being economically competitive. They have to many similarity's that if any form of favouritism was allowed to take place it would have a negative impact on the other.

It can only help , make LCA even more advanced . Why dont u look at LUH program HAL said in 2005 they can make LUH in 3 years time , still IAF decided to go two-way .
Buy similar machine from from Europe and HAL , LUH later . If eurocopter and LUH can co-exist , why not Tejas and gripen .
Don't bring time issue in between bcoz if it was this Tender wouldn't have got cancelled and is on verge of it again . By the time next Trials end LUH would be flying

Like i said the odd's can go either way.

I am not saying it has to , i am saying it can.
Past experience with the Arjun provides a clear example

I wouldn't have have Both the Tejas and Gripen in the IAF.

But there is also a chance that with the Gripen , it may have a negative effect. Even if that negative effect is a mere reduction of the tejas aircraft by 64 planes , from what ever number will be order. Because those orders went to more Gripens .

I am simply not willing to pay that price.

We will talk about it in detail when MCA flies and FGFA starts production in2020 , then we will ask why inducting FGFA its a waste and will kill MCA .

That is different scenario , taken up with much better planning.
MCA relies on the FGFA. That was planned out to work in tandem.

Both jets also serve different requirements.

 

[Dash]

That's an optimistic scenario , that is also possible.
But the Arjun development saga, has left me with a bitter taste.

Again i want to stress it's not so much what the Griphen will do to the Tejas program.

But the kind of reaction the IAF may have. It's a concern that if they have more single engine fighters of the same class , same role and almost same everything.

The need for the number of Tejas aircraft will increase

Hi Gogbot -

I agree and echo your voice that, the numbers of LCA must increase..
We are probabbly missing something here..when we all just say 500 tejas need to be in production...But we are not getting into a realistic scenario here..

1. Whats the current squadron strength.
2. What the IAF in co-ordination with GOI envisage the squadron strength to be in future.
3. How much of indegeneous content need to be in our tools.
4. How much of foreign content will be there.
5. Lastly how much help can be bought in the entire process of acquiring MRCA and FGFA.

Iam sure this must be the plan of action for Airforce, if not fully but something in these lines.

These are all interlinked and its a simple yet complex function of Y= F(x)...
Where the first two points are individual Ys, the last points are the Xs.

By just looking at the sanctioned squadron strength of IAF, which is roughly 42 squadrons and if each squadron will have 18-20 fighters theen you get a number which is 840 approx.

Mig 21 - 121, Mig 29-69, Su30mki - 230 (additional 42, talks on table). MIrage- 51, MIg -27148 and Jaguar -88. which is equal to 39 squadrons, but this will be future squadron strength, sometime to eb realised in 2015.

By End of 2015 - MRCA 126 will start getting inducted and by 2020. 833, so take 840 AC will be fielded taking the squadron numbers to 42.

So if the sanctioned squadron will be realised by all foreign aircrafts then the question arises.

Where does LCA come into picture....? It will fill the numbers of AC that will retire...121 Migs wont be there. some of 148 Mig-27 wont be there, Jaguar might be still there...

So taking about the numbers of 121+ lets say 80 MIg 27s will be 200 fighter planes....will be the gap again.

Where LCA is an airdefense and interceptor which will mostly replace the migs. Coz Mig-27 is a strike aircraft and a bomber.....

Mostly the MIg-27 might get replaced by FGFA.

So we get a number finally 121 LCA must have to be there, By 2020. Which is a good number. And please dont be in doubt. This has to be the case. Coz the vision is to acquire 42 squads by 2020.

and Iam saying 121 LCAs be it in Mk1 or MK2 will make their place.
The only issue I see here is the availability of production lines. but I wthink that can be taken care of.

So I have no doubt that LCA will not be there. Regardless of who comes and who goes it doesnt matter.

How many Arjun do we have , at best 248

What happened to the thousands of orders .

The Arjun came back when a last ditch attempt was made to expose the Indian Army's folly.

Had the Comparitive trials , which took 3 years from suggestion to actual trial, Not happened. Where would the Arjun be today.

At least we can be happy that the Arjun has been proven as good tank. Contrary to all Indian army claims.

But the damage done to its reputation can never be repaired.

The Arjun wont be seeing orders in the 1000's any time soon.

Arjun is still alive , but the induction of the T-90 has dealt the tank sever damage.

I wont comment much on this thing as we all know, this is past and now at least I am sure of one fact.

If DRDO has pushed for comparative trials then I can beat my chest and say that GOI is behind it. So we can say that there is at least a "Government will" strong enough to send a strong message to our armed forces..

That is past, no need to stay in the past and damage our future goals. when you develope something things are bound to go wrong...

Arjun is still the most respected and succesful story of our indegenous program.

Time to be optimistic.

 

[sancho]

^^^^^Great point and post

But Dash , its of no help . If a person has made up his mind that LCA is equal or better than Gripen , we cant do anything .
Gripen is a threat to LCA is then just baseless , if LCA is so good why would Gripen pose a threat .
Tejas's plight or merit dosen't rest's on Gripen . Requirement and shortage of LCA is such , even if you order 200 Gripen , to make up falling numbers LCA still needs to be inducted in nos more than 200 .

I think you are the one that don't want to see the similarity of both fighters, so let me point it out for you once again. Just compare LCA MK1 and Gripen C/D specs, that are already available (unlike the full specs of NG, or MK2) and you hardly can deny it.

Design: LCA and Gripen are 4th gen multi role, single engine, delta wing fighters, only difference are the canards of the Gripen.

Radar, avionics, weapons: both have multi mode, pulse doppler radars, have fully digital-, glass cockpit, are BVR and PGM capable.

Roles: both for point defense and close air support



Specs (advantage for Gripen red, advantage LCA green):

Composites: Gripen 25% / LCA 45%
Empty weight: 6800 Kg / 5680 Kg
Max takeoff weight: 14000 Kg / 13500 Kg
Powerplant: Volvo Aero RM12 (GE 404 derivate) / General Electric F404-GE-IN20
Dry thrust: 54 kN / 53.9 kN
Thrust with afterburner: 80.5 kN / 85kN
Range with drop tanks: 3200 Km / 3000 Km
Service ceiling: 15240 m / 16000 m
Payload: 5300 Kg / 4000 Kg
Weapon stations: 7+1 (targeting pod) / 7+1


As you can see mate, both are more than similar in design, roles, capabilities and performance and if at all, the Gripen has only a slight advantage!

Of course LCA MK2 is still under evaluation only and not all of its specs are cleared yet, but just like the Gripen NG it will feature 4.5 techs like AESA radar, IRST and an improved engine. You simply can't say that the NG would have a clear advantage over it, like the Rafale, or EF would offer.
So instead of ordering 200 Gripen NGs (that will also be licence produced at the same time HAL will produce LCA MK2 too),wouldn't it be the better idea to take 126 more capable MMRCAs that offers also additional advantages and increase the number of LCA MK2 instead?

It can only help , make LCA even more advanced .

Please understand that it can not! Saab is not in the situation to offer LCA anything else besides the data links that Dash mentioned before, because for all other main techs they are also just a customer only!

Can they be a co-development partner for Kaveri engine? No, because they have also no own engine and just like we do, buy a foreign one.
Can they be a co-development partner for AESA radar? No, because they also have no own AESA development, they also searched for a partner and now just bought one for the NG.
Can they provide us an IRST? No, they also just bought it from Selsex Galileo.
Can they help to make N-LCA carrier capable? No, because they have never developed a carrier fighter.

As you can see, they are as dependent on foreign parts and help as we are and that's why they can't be a help.

Why dont u look at LUH program HAL said in 2005 they can make LUH in 3 years time , still IAF decided to go two-way .
Buy similar machine from from Europe and HAL , LUH later . If eurocopter and LUH can co-exist , why not Tejas and gripen .
Don't bring time issue in between bcoz if it was this Tender wouldn't have got cancelled and is on verge of it again . By the time next Trials end LUH would be flying

You are missing 2 points here! One why IAF/MoD wanted the split for LUH, as well as for LCA and MMRCA? Because they wanted one part replaced by a proven aircraft which offers less delays, or problems. That is simply a risk reduction strategy!

Secondly nobody said that LCA and Gripen couldn't be used alongside eachother, the problem lies in gaining experience and know how for indigenous developments!
HALs LUH will be the first newly developed indigenous helicopter that will have so many indigenous parts and without that much help from foreign countries. This is only possible because we had other developments like Dhruv and LCH before that. LCA development instead is similar to Dhruv with much foreign contend, so if we don't use this development to gain as much as possible from it, we will also have problems in later developments!

 

[INDIAISM]

Hi Gogbot -

I agree and echo your voice that, the numbers of LCA must increase..
We are probabbly missing something here..when we all just say 500 tejas need to be in production...But we are not getting into a realistic scenario here..

1. Whats the current squadron strength.
2. What the IAF in co-ordination with GOI envisage the squadron strength to be in future.
3. How much of indegeneous content need to be in our tools.
4. How much of foreign content will be there.
5. Lastly how much help can be bought in the entire process of acquiring MRCA and FGFA.

Iam sure this must be the plan of action for Airforce, if not fully but something in these lines.

These are all interlinked and its a simple yet complex function of Y= F(x)...
Where the first two points are individual Ys, the last points are the Xs.

By just looking at the sanctioned squadron strength of IAF, which is roughly 42 squadrons and if each squadron will have 18-20 fighters theen you get a number which is 840 approx.

Mig 21 - 121, Mig 29-69, Su30mki - 230 (additional 42, talks on table). MIrage- 51, MIg -27148 and Jaguar -88. which is equal to 39 squadrons, but this will be future squadron strength, sometime to eb realised in 2015.

By End of 2015 - MRCA 126 will start getting inducted and by 2020. 833, so take 840 AC will be fielded taking the squadron numbers to 42.

So if the sanctioned squadron will be realised by all foreign aircrafts then the question arises.

Where does LCA come into picture....? It will fill the numbers of AC that will retire...121 Migs wont be there. some of 148 Mig-27 wont be there, Jaguar might be still there...

So taking about the numbers of 121+ lets say 80 MIg 27s will be 200 fighter planes....will be the gap again.

Where LCA is an airdefense and interceptor which will mostly replace the migs. Coz Mig-27 is a strike aircraft and a bomber.....

Mostly the MIg-27 might get replaced by FGFA.

So we get a number finally 121 LCA must have to be there, By 2020. Which is a good number. And please dont be in doubt. This has to be the case. Coz the vision is to acquire 42 squads by 2020.

and Iam saying 121 LCAs be it in Mk1 or MK2 will make their place.
The only issue I see here is the availability of production lines. but I wthink that can be taken care of.

So I have no doubt that LCA will not be there. Regardless of who comes and who goes it doesnt matter.



I wont comment much on this thing as we all know, this is past and now at least I am sure of one fact.

If DRDO has pushed for comparative trials then I can beat my chest and say that GOI is behind it. So we can say that there is at least a "Government will" strong enough to send a strong message to our armed forces..

That is past, no need to stay in the past and damage our future goals. when you develope something things are bound to go wrong...

Arjun is still the most respected and succesful story of our indegenous program.

Time to be optimistic.

i think iaf shall buy atleast 400 lca tejas{20 aircrafts/squad} reason.......at present iaf has around 350-380 mig 21 in their inventory from which around 250 will retire by 2011...and by 2020 around 140 mig 27,121 mig 21bison and around 100 jaguar will retire................so the total number of aircrafts that will be retired in next decade is around 540{not to 4get at present IAF has around 34 or 35 squad}on the other hand we will be getting around 250-300 aircrafts{according to the present deals(126 mrca+120 su 30mki +42 su 30mki[deal is not signed yet])}+around 18 pakfa's...............

by 2020 u will have

15 squads of su 30mki{18 aircraft/squad}
6 squadron of mrca
1 squadron of pakfa
3 squadron of mig 29
2 or 3 squadron of miraage 2000
7 squadron of lca tejas{140 will be ordered}
--------------
33 squadrons

 

[sancho]

This is getting hotter....
Ok I will argue here that you are somewhat trying to give evdences to support your own conclusion of Gripen coming in the way of LCA. However developement of Arjun couldnt be stopped by T-90 so that gives me a confidence that there are no links btn LCA and Gripen...

Hehe, actually you gave the best example how foreign arms gave problems to indigenous developments!
Now compare that with LCA and MMRCA, 99 + 49 optional engines for MK2 are under evaluation, but MMRCA is for 126 + 64 optional, already less than LCA. If IAF/MoD wants to order more fighters and they could produce more LCAs, or licence produce more foreign fighters, exactly the same choice IA had with Arjun and T90!

Regarding the links between LCA and MMRCA, just look at my last post and look where co-developments between MMRCA members for LCA techs are possible.

Regarding sanctions, or vetos against us, US and UK posed sanctions on us before, UK protested even the sale of old Islander aircrafts to Burma (EUM) and look at the problems we have with the US about CISOMA contract.
Don't believe that they will do any favour for us that is against their interests. Brazil instead learned from these problems with the US and search for an independent, strategic partner that don't offer these risks.

And how important ToT is for MoD should be obvious by the fact that they asked for unusual much ToT in the MMRCA competition. Also see how important ToT was in the MKI deal, do you think without ToT from Russia we would be able to produce nearly all parts of the MKI in India now? That was important because we learned from the problems with sanctions and spare supply from foreign nations in the past.

 

[Dash]

i think iaf shall buy atleast 400 lca tejas{20 aircrafts/squad} reason.......at present iaf has around 350-380 mig 21 in their inventory from which around 250 will retire by 2011...and by 2020 around 140 mig 27,121 mig 21bison and around 100 jaguar will retire

We dont have 350-380 Mig 21s..we just have 121. Even if you retire 140 Mig 27, 121 Migs abd 100 Jaguars. You cant replace all of them by LCA as LCA has a limited role so far.

Please note that Jaguars are nuclear capable bombers too. You need a fighter like FGFA to replace this fleet...

 

[sancho]

We dont have 350-380 Mig 21s..we just have 121. Even if you retire 140 Mig 27, 121 Migs abd 100 Jaguars. You cant replace all of them by LCA as LCA has a limited role so far.

Please note that Jaguars are nuclear capable bombers too. You need a fighter like FGFA to replace this fleet...

Dash, we have:

90 x MiG-21 M/MF
56 x MiG-21Bis
54 x MiG-21FL (2nd line fighters)
108 x MiG-21 Bison

Exept the Bisons (till 2020) they will be phased out in the next 2 years and must be replaced too, they all wil by LCA and MMRCA.