Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

There is a general assumtion that the MIG-35 is not a tough a.c compared to american couter parts.But the fact is that it is the most flexible a.c available & could be further developed with 5th gen techs and avionics being developed for FGFG.

Flexible on what matter and what 5. gen techs can be added to Mig 35? The AL 41 engine should not fit, maybe also the Irbis AESA radar. We add Western and Israeli avionics to all new Russian fighters, I doubt that it will be different on FGFA. So what else is left to be added?

 

[Arun tevar]

Flexible on what matter and what 5. gen techs can be added to Mig 35? The AL 41 engine should not fit, maybe also the Irbis AESA radar. We add Western and Israeli avionics to all new Russian fighters, I doubt that it will be different on FGFA. So what else is left to be added?

Brother by fifth gen tech I ment to say that the existing AESA platform is not mature enough,and can only be clasified into a 4th gen tech,but the developments on the FGFA can give it a substancial matureity,improve its performance and range in terms of its AMERICAN counterparts.Moreover I understand the current state of MIG is not as impressive as it was in the past but do u think that russians will let it die an untimely death like MJ,not at all,afterall its a matter of prestige.FURTHERMORE we can obiviously muster them to offer full tech transfer whereas the US will never do so for us atleast in the near future.U r right that we can furter enhance the A.C capability with ISRAELI stuffs.Remember the delays by the RUSSIANS r not just their fault,they r going through a tough time and regarding gorsky,WE SIGNRD it in a different time period further updated our requirement & then also changed our specifications to armaments twice & took a delay of 1year for deciding the A.C on board,& happilly sought the deal for a very low price,which took a worst toll on the russies as they always tryed to apeace us.All this coupled with other factors & the result is what we face.But i am optimistic that this would surely b fixed.MOREOVER the a.c offered by U.S is itself going to b replaced in near future meaning no further upgrades,wheras we r planing an A.C for atleast forty years,wheras though the russians r not intrested in MIG-35 but,our MCA programme is most likekly going to sought the assistence of the MIG ,as feported in many russian media.FURTERMORE many even dought the BVR capabilities of the russias but remind u there is a all bunch of armaments being developed for the 5TH gen platforms including stealth enabelled BVRs.

 

[Arun tevar]

sreeming skull the belief that US is a holly grail for INDIA'S foreign policy is a complete nonsense,they will only stand by us to meet there own needs,remember US policy itself is based on the principle of use karo aur fenko.tough russins r not as powerfull as they were in the past but frankly speaking there is no one else to challenge their dominance other than them & the new emerging power the CHINESE.I am of the belief that the RUSSIANS,CHINESE,INDIANS should come together barring their differencess and form a new counter weight for the US and its allies,as it is very necessary for the future of 21st century to be in our favour.

 

[sancho]

FURTHERMORE we can obiviously muster them to offer full tech transfer whereas the US will never do so for us atleast in the near future.U r right that we can furter enhance the A.C capability with ISRAELI stuffs...MOREOVER the a.c offered by U.S is itself going to b replaced in near future meaning no further upgrades,wheras we r planing an A.C for atleast forty years,wheras though the russians r not intrested in MIG-35 but,our MCA programme is most likekly going to sought the assistence of the MIG ,as feported in many russian media.FURTERMORE many even dought the BVR capabilities of the russias but remind u there is a all bunch of armaments being developed for the 5TH gen platforms including stealth enabelled BVRs.

If the requirment is to get an aircraft which is ready and proven and don't causes any delays in production, which would shrink squad numbers even more, there is nearly no other option than F18SH. Instead of most of the other aircrafts in the competition it comes with completely ready and proven airframe and system. Mig 35 is only a prototype now, even if most of it are only just upg to Mig 29, you can bet that it will face delays!

The point of further upgrades is also not correct, US will keep F18SH in navy for quiet a long time, cause they can't replace them and all F15,16, Harrier, A10 at the same time and those F18SH are the newest of them. In fact F18SH Growler production just started this year and Boeing is already in development of the block 3 upg (likely with CFTs and internal weapon bay of F15SE).
Whereas Russia will not buy Mig 35 and not even upg their current Mig 29 fleet. They will replace them with Pak Fa, that's why they are pushing that project so bad now. So if we buy Mig 35, we will be the only operator and upgrades will be payed by us only and will costly for sure!

You are right that there will be new gen weapons for FGFA, but you forget that we will still have SU 30 MKI, that can carry more load and more different weapons. It will be far more likely that they will use those weapons, than Mig 29, or 35.
The only disadvantage that the F18SH has are less ToT, restrictions from US gov and that they are close to MKI in performance (weight, range, payload, radar range), we might get full ToT of Mig 35, but will it be a benefit?
Even you said that the Mig 35 AESA is not mature, the engine is the same RD 33 that HAL already produce in licence, with some slighty improvements of thrust and 3D TVC. We already use a better OLS and produce a TVC engine of Su 30 MKI, so these techs won't give us much.

Instead of buying Mig 35 for over $50 million each, we should just upg our older Mig 29 with Zhuk AESA, instead of Zhuk PESA, add the TVC nozzle and the slight improvements of to the engine that HAL produce and get the new OLS if needed. This would make our Mig 29 nearly as capable as new Mig 35, but less costly!
MMRCA must go to any fighter that gives us more new capabilities, or techs and Mig 35 can't offer that.

 

[Arun tevar]

If the requirment is to get an aircraft which is ready and proven and don't causes any delays in production, which would shrink squad numbers even more, there is nearly no other option than F18SH. Instead of most of the other aircrafts in the competition it comes with completely ready and proven airframe and system. Mig 35 is only a prototype now, even if most of it are only just upg to Mig 29, you can bet that it will face delays!

The point of further upgrades is also not correct, US will keep F18SH in navy for quiet a long time, cause they can't replace them and all F15,16, Harrier, A10 at the same time and those F18SH are the newest of them. In fact F18SH Growler production just started this year and Boeing is already in development of the block 3 upg (likely with CFTs and internal weapon bay of F15SE).
Whereas Russia will not buy Mig 35 and not even upg their current Mig 29 fleet. They will replace them with Pak Fa, that's why they are pushing that project so bad now. So if we buy Mig 35, we will be the only operator and upgrades will be payed by us only and will costly for sure!

You are right that there will be new gen weapons for FGFA, but you forget that we will still have SU 30 MKI, that can carry more load and more different weapons. It will be far more likely that they will use those weapons, than Mig 29, or 35.
The only disadvantage that the F18SH has are less ToT, restrictions from US gov and that they are close to MKI in performance (weight, range, payload, radar range), we might get full ToT of Mig 35, but will it be a benefit?
Even you said that the Mig 35 AESA is not mature, the engine is the same RD 33 that HAL already produce in licence, with some slighty improvements of thrust and 3D TVC. We already use a better OLS and produce a TVC engine of Su 30 MKI, so these techs won't give us much.

Instead of buying Mig 35 for over $50 million each, we should just upg our older Mig 29 with Zhuk AESA, instead of Zhuk PESA, add the TVC nozzle and the slight improvements of to the engine that HAL produce and get the new OLS if needed. This would make our Mig 29 nearly as capable as new Mig 35, but less costly!
MMRCA must go to any fighter that gives us more new capabilities, or techs and Mig 35 can't offer that.

Sorry bro I am leading a bussy life of a student & hardly get any time to post.Bro I am not an opposer of US goodie but would not like to use a limited amount of potential,and hence would like to keep all options open & preffer russi or franci A.C.

 

[Screaming Skull]

MMRCA Part 4 - The French Squall​

The Rafale is an intriguing aircraft. Everyone remembers the dramatic way in which Dassault announced in 2006 that it was withdrawing the Mirage-2000-V from the MMRCA competition and instead fielding the the Rafale. It was a surprise move, considering the fact that the IAF had initially simply wanted to buy a whole lot more Mirages as its MMRCA, and was deeply convinced about the capabilities of the Dash-5. Fate (and Dassault) had other plans, it seemed. And with the government, in its wisdom, ordering the IAF to "open up" its qualitative requirements to engender a real competition, Boeing leapt into the fray with the Super Hornet. Almost on cue, the Mirage was withdrawn and the Rafale pitched. There are those who believe this was a seriously bad move, though Dassault unofficially sent across the message that there was no way in hell that it was going to keep its production line warm for the notorious time it was going to take for the Indian government to make its mind up, and also that there was no assurance that the Mirage would be selected finally. And therefore, the Rafale.

STRENGHTS

The Rafale smacks of the intangible "newness" of being a truly contemporary airplane built for today's missions. Conversely, it suffers none of the reputational hazards of being an old souped up platform with tinkering under the bonnet. Pitched as an "omnirole" fighter, the IAF has incrementally been convinced of what this term really means. Pitched as a logical next-step to the Mirage -- which the IAF loves with a passion -- the people at Dassault have managed to pitch well the idea that operating the Rafale will be a progression of the same ownership/operation experience. The pitch that IAF pilots will take to the Rafale more easily than any of the other fighters is something that has managed to be persuasive to an extent. While the Thales RBE2 AESA radar is still its final developmental phase, the IAF has been provided with regular and detailed updates on the radar's capabilities and performance parameters, and one officer, who has been part of the teams that receive these updates on a regular basis, says the IAF had no reason to doubt the laid down capabilities, and was in fact deeply impressed with what the French had managed to achieve in what is a science simply dominated by two American firms. Not just that, Dassault says the Rafale is the only aircraft in its class to be equipped with active arrays for both its radar and electronic warfare suite (EWS). IAF officers have in fact regularly been invited to witness RBE2 prototypes being tested on the Hack -- a Mirage-2000 test bed for the radar since 2003. In April 2008, the Rafale opened its operational account by being deployed to Afghanistan and being flown on 220 active combat missions, involving 730 flight hours. This may be peanuts compared to the operational logs of the Rafale's competition in the MMRCA, but the IAF recognises that this is a new aircraft in a transitory phase of tranche-level modernisation. At Red Flag 2008, IAF pilots got up close with the Rafale. A report on the Rafale was in fact informally submitted to Vayu Bhawan by the team when it returned. TheIAF has been given detailed presentations on the Rafale's multi-sensor data fusion system -- the RBE2 radar, Link 16 data bus, Front Sector Optronic (FSO) and SPECTRA self-defense suite and has been impressed by the ensemble. The Rafale is also considered by the IAF to be possibly the only plane in the sweepstakes with a focused use of composites for stealth and reduced RCS. The Rafale will also come with new, high-capability variants of MBDA missiles that the IAF has operated for decades, and places a lot of value on. Former Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash, as FOC-in-C Western Naval Command, flew the Rafale during an official visit to Paris. A few other senior officers of the IAF have also had a chance to spin up in the otherwise reclusive Rafale. The sense that Dassault isn't displaying its wares like the other five contenders are, is something that has somehow been looked at as "proper" by some in the Defence Ministry. This is, after all, a serious defence procurement, some say -- "there's no need for so much song and dance at Aero India every year". The Rafale is the only aircraft in the sweepstakes that comes with an explicitly stated nuclear delivery capability. None of the others mentioned it. And the reason I mention this is that some very senior officers in the air force, are wondering why. The Rafale is also among the least familiar of the six jets, at least in the Indian media, simply because Dassault has stayed well away from courting publicity -- this is also looked upon by the IAF/MoD as being representative of a deeper, more valuable quality during a procurement process: discretion. Finally, defence deals with France have always been expensive, but always been excellent professional and operational experiences for the Indian forces. From the Mirages to Alouettes to the Mysteres. No spares problems. No nonsense. The French could also leverage significant political power to push India as the prestigious launch customer of the Rafale, though not quite like the Jaguar's initial years were. A maximum 11 Gs in critical manoeuvers doesn't hurt either.

WEAKNESSES

The albatross around the Rafale remains its relatively unproven stature, and of course, the fact that it hasn't ever been exported. As one of the most expensive (flyaway cost) aircraft in the sweepstakes, it also comes with possibly the largest price-tag in terms of total contract cost, though Dassault has made strenuous efforts to convey to the IAF that its use of Dassault aircraft over time, particularly the Mirage, will significantly erode the total commitment necessary in terms of new infrastructure. Obviously, the IAF isn't buying this -- they're treating the Rafale as any new aircraft type. There are almost no articulated weaknesses in specifications, though the IAF is anxious about an aircraft that has been fielded for a lot of competitions unsuccessfully. Finally, the government has recently awarded France with the huge Scorpene deal. Awarding the MMRCA to France would be politically too much for too little. The leadership of Nicolas Sarkozy doesn't half do what Jacques Chirac's did in its time.

 

[Mig-29]

Under pressure from the Pentagon, Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has been forced to back out of a joint partnership with a Swedish aerospace company to compete in a multi-billion dollar tender to sell new multi-role fighter jets to the Indian Air Force ...
Courtesy live fist

 

[BSF]

so its down to Mig 35, Euro figher and Rafel.
F 16 and F18 and Gripen are out because they cannot fulfill the TOT requirement.
And i hope MIG 35 wins

 

[sancho]

Sorry bro I am leading a bussy life of a student & hardly get any time to post.Bro I am not an opposer of US goodie but would not like to use a limited amount of potential,and hence would like to keep all options open & preffer russi or franci A.C.

No problem, I can understand you but to take another Russian fighter would also reduce our options and increase the reliability right?
As I said F18SH still have enough potential and would be the perfect gap filler because of unit cost and proven systems. But I also prefer the French Rafale, cause it fits better between LCA and MKI, could replace a lot of older aircrafts (Mirage 2k, Jaguar) and it would be the independent choice.
Imo India should try to become a partner of Rafale and not only a customer. We already have jv like Kaveri - Snecma engine and Topsight HMD that could benefit Rafale aswell as LCA. A joint production of other parts like RBE 2 radar, Spectra EWS, or weapons like AASM would reduce costs for both too. Also Indian weapons like Astra, or air launched versions of Brahmos and Nag (which already are under development) would give Rafale more variety of weapons for export markets.

Under pressure from the Pentagon, Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has been forced to back out of a joint partnership with a Swedish aerospace company to compete in a multi-billion dollar tender to sell new multi-role fighter jets to the Indian Air Force ...
Courtesy live fist

Just another example that shows how dependent Saab is on other countries (France didn't allow them to integrate the AESA radar that they showed in the Gripen NG demonstrator before), but I wonder what techs the Gripen Ng should get from Israel? I would guess the Elta AESA radar, cause I doubt Saab will have a n AESA ready before we will decide about MMRCA.

 

[MFI]

so its down to Mig 35, Euro figher and Rafel.
F 16 and F18 and Gripen are out because they cannot fulfill the TOT requirement.
And i hope MIG 35 wins

yup kinda hoping it's the Eurofighter it's agility coupled with speed and if allowed the Israeli 2052 AESA radar will make it a deadly machine.

 

[Mig-29]

Saab has finally reacted to reports about Israeli Aerospace Industries being forced by the Pentagon to pull out of a partnership for avionics on the Gripen IN being offered to India for the MMRCA competition. Saab spokesperson Anne Lewis-Olsson has announced, "Israel was one of several options for the Gripen NG radar over a year ago but we decided to continue with other alternatives."This statement appears to indicate that IAI was considered at some point, but was dropped for the very reasons that the JPost report lays down. Short point: the Gripen is thankfully very much still in the race, and Saab is in fact a little bemused by the belated report on IAI's exit from the NG programme, though the truth remains that IAI was forced out by US pressure.In addition, Flightglobal's very authoritative aerospace columnist Stephen Trimble has his own take on the whole affair. He writes that Saab had already dropped IAI as an option for the Gripen NG's sensors and has offered India the Gripen armed with an AESA radar made by Italian avionics firm Selex Galileo (see slides). He adds another vital nugget of information -- that the original Thales radar was blocked by the French (conflict with the Rafale), and therefore Saab was forced to scout for other radar vendors.

 

[Neutral]

if MIG 35 wins by brain then

the dual blade sword advantage!!!

1st MIG 35 & 2nd Much improved Russian ties

 

[duhastmish]

there were suppose to be MRCA trial in june/nuly any idea ? when this june july will come ? 2019 or 2050 ?

 

[sudhir007]

there were suppose to be MRCA trial in june/nuly any idea ? when this june july will come ? 2019 or 2050 ?

It been shifted to Aug or Sep. 2009

 

[Screaming Skull]

IAF’s search for jets to begin in Bangalore​

Wednesday 8 July 2009

The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) search for 126 multi-role fighters in a mega $10 billion defence deal is expected to kick start from Bangalore where the planes will undergo the first round of trials in a month or two.

The field evaluation trial will begin from the Yalehanka air base in Bangalore where the aircraft’s performance, system and tolerance of humidity trials will be tested. The process is likely to commence in July.

The fighters in contention are USA’s F-16 Falcon from Lockheed Martin and F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing, Sweden’s Gripen (JAS-39), Rafale from France’s Dassault Aviation, Russian MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon from European consortium EADS. Barring Rafale and Grippen, other four had flown in the Bangalore air show in February last.

The no-cost, no-commitment trials would be in sequence, starting from Bangalore, sources said, adding that it might take two years to complete the trials. Each company will be asked to bring two-three planes for the trials. From Bangalore, the planes will go to Jaisalmer for hot weather and weapon trials. The final phase of the trials would be conducted at Leh to judge their performance in cold weather and high altitude conditions.

After the Indian leg of the trial is over, there could also be another weapon-firing trial outside India, possibly in the manufacturing country.
Interestingly, though one of the competitors, Rafale, reportedly went out of the race due an incomplete tender form, it is believed to be back in the race, thanks to the diplomatic intervention from France.

These 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft will be one of the mainstays for the IAF along with Su-30 and indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).
The IAF targets to bolster its squadron strength up to the sanctioned position of 39.5 squadrons by inducting MMRCA, LCA and Su-30s.

Former IAF chief Fali Homi Major had admitted that the IAF force strength was down to 34 squadrons, which is expected to go out even further in the coming years due to phasing out of aircraft of old vintage.
However, if the MMRCA deal happens in time and the LCA comes to the service by 2010-11, the IAF can hope to have the sanctioned strength by 2017 and a little more by 2020.

While 18 MMRCA will be purchased in flyaway conditions, the remaining 108 will be manufactured at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under licence.
The MMRCA deal will also aid the IAF to simplify its inventory management rather than maintaining a large number of different aircraft.

IAF’s search for jets to begin in B’lore