Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions
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BATMAN
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Not only I agree with you rather I have already mentioned in earlier posts that this 126 MRCA purchase theory is nothing but a fuss of Indian government and seems more of a carrot approach to drive the foreign policies of western countries against Pakistan, so far it produced mixed results.
I personaly believe that raising the numbers (200) will not help much to change world's perception about this MRCA theory of being no more than a fuss.
BATMAN
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I see the pic they are superb i also love these russians planes like MiG and Specially the SU35 Terminator .. what are the technical ability of MIG -35 and i think this the end of its design life after this ...
I think so far, this thread has been very informative in a way that almost all of the modern air crafts had been discussed in details and this thread can be used as a guideline for any country to buy 4th generation advance aircraft.
I know mig-35 pictures are very fascinating and give you the feeling that it is the end of the world.
Today, It is indeed one of the best available off the shelf.
You may start a new thread for 'Terminator' it is beyond MRCA.
Contrarian
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Dude...we already got the Su-30MKI, why do we need Su-35?
When by and large its similar to Su-30, and Su-35 has used Su-30MKI as its model on which to build upon.
Apart from that, when the new engines and avionics and missiles, come for the 5th gen plane, they would be able to retrofit them on the Su-30 MKI's.
When by and large its similar to Su-30, and Su-35 has used Su-30MKI as its model on which to build upon.
Apart from that, when the new engines and avionics and missiles, come for the 5th gen plane, they would be able to retrofit them on the Su-30 MKI's.
BATMAN
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Cheif dude.... who say so, not even you!
SU-30MKI, why not LCA it is more Indian (??%).
What you are saying is that IAF is planning to retrofit avionics of SU-30MKI same as of SU-35 (5th gen!!
).Really, than why IAF didn't accepted Russian avionics in SU-30 on the first place.
Only difference between SU-30 and SU-30MKI is western avionics in later case.
Question: For what specific reason IAF would revert back to Russian avionics ?
BATMAN
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I read some where comments of IAF cheif :
Bit cruel to Mig-35 in particular and Russian technology in general. Never mind, he may not need them any more. But I wonder if he was reffering to pilots, engine or weapons?
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The IAF's MRCA contract: Fades into the blue…
Rajiv Singh
New Delhi: The Indian Air Force's (IAF) medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) contract once again threatened to fade away into the blue skies, like a rapidly disappearing fighter jet, when the newly anointed chief of the Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major, confessed "even I didn't know when it will be issued." ACM Major's comment was made to media personnel as part of his first interaction with the national media after taking over as chief.
The air force chief's confession should not come as too much of a surprise, however, as Major's predecessor, Air Chief Marshal (retd) SP Tyagi, was forced to confess on his last day in office that he too was "not aware" when the order would come through. This, after Tyagi spent the better part of his career stating that he was 'hopeful' that the tender would be issued "soon."
ACM Major's comment would be particularly galling for the air force as the country's defence minister, AK Antony, had created quite a flutter in February at the high-profile Aero India 2007 show at Bangalore by stating that the request for proposal (RFP) for the aircraft would be issued, latest by March 31.
Antony's declaration was followed by reports in the media that portrayed ministry of defence personnel as working overtime, trying to meet the deadline set by him. However, summer holidays have apparently begun a bit early in New Delhi for these personnel as no RFP is in the offing or maybe the heat being generated by the contract has become a bit too hot for them to handle, as the ACM's confession would now appear to show.
For the record, it would be correct to quote ACM Fali H Major on the matter: "Even I don't know when it (RFP) will be issued. As and when all the (concerned) issues are resolved, it will be issued." ACM Major, also took care to stress that the delay in acquiring the 126 combat jets would not have a "negative" impact on the force.
"There are many elements that have to be factored in (after a new defence procurement policy was pronounced last year). Therefore, it is taking time," Air Chief Marshal Fali Major maintained during his first media interaction after assuming office on March 31.
"Does this have a negative impact? I don't think so. This is because it's already been factored (into the IAF's perspective plans)," added Major.
"Any credible air force has to learn to fight with what it has," said Major.
Defence? Let's have a scandal instead…
Indeed, it does. Brave words from the force's chief, but unfortunately the comment leaves the brave boys in blue neither here nor quite there. The country's friendly neighbourhood air force's, that of China and Pakistan, are already inducting the latest 4+ generation fighter aircraft. The jointly developed JF-17 Thunder has already begun entering service with the Pakistani and Chinese air forces.
In Pakistan's case matters go further with the Bush administration clearing the sale of the Block 50/52 F-16 Fighting Falcon's. The point behind the sale of these F-16's is not the aircraft itself but the avionic upgrades and the latest munitions that they come along with. These supplies effectively fritter away whatever technological advantage the IAF had built up over the last few years. Even as it loses its advantage the IAF now has to sit back and watch as the civilian 'decision making' process meanders its way through 'strategic imperatives' that essentially tries to be all things to all people.
The point is not to demean the 'imperatives' that govern policy making in a complicated international environment. But some pompous policy making individual, politician or bureaucrat, will have to stand up and explain what are the 'imperatives' that have been delaying the decision on an issue that has been pending for six years at the very least, have cost the lives of scores of pilots, young and experienced and has caused hundreds of crore of rupees in losses to the national exchequer.
More than all of this has the country's defence preparedness paid a price - or miraculously has that remained unaffected all this while. May be the whole point is to make ad-hoc purchases and tide over a crisis.
The purchase orders for an additional lot of 40 Su-30MKIs will help the air force breathe easy in spite of the delay over the RFP - and may be that is what ACM Major is referring to when he says that the delay is 'factored in' and that there would be no negative impact.
Maybe that is what the latest round of controversies are also all about - the one about the latest purchases of Su-30MKIs not meeting 'offset' clause requirements. And the even more strange one of Russia refusing to sign the 'integrity pact' for defence purchases. Speculation, suspicion and scandal - necessary ingredients to any defence contract in this country.
'Policy imperatives,' pompous policy makers and 'defence scandals' lurking round the corner - that is what needs to be factored in when you are talking about Indian defence. Yes, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major is right when he says, "Any credible air force has to learn to fight with what it has." That is what Indian defence forces have been doing their entire career.
May be it is time to introduce some 'People's democracy' a la China, which has been sailing along into super power glory with the highest military expenditures in the world over the last two decades, or some military 'democracy' a la Pakistan, whose entire 'national' life is geared to feeding the military establishment.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070409_indian_air_force.htm
Rajiv Singh
New Delhi: The Indian Air Force's (IAF) medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) contract once again threatened to fade away into the blue skies, like a rapidly disappearing fighter jet, when the newly anointed chief of the Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major, confessed "even I didn't know when it will be issued." ACM Major's comment was made to media personnel as part of his first interaction with the national media after taking over as chief.
The air force chief's confession should not come as too much of a surprise, however, as Major's predecessor, Air Chief Marshal (retd) SP Tyagi, was forced to confess on his last day in office that he too was "not aware" when the order would come through. This, after Tyagi spent the better part of his career stating that he was 'hopeful' that the tender would be issued "soon."
ACM Major's comment would be particularly galling for the air force as the country's defence minister, AK Antony, had created quite a flutter in February at the high-profile Aero India 2007 show at Bangalore by stating that the request for proposal (RFP) for the aircraft would be issued, latest by March 31.
Antony's declaration was followed by reports in the media that portrayed ministry of defence personnel as working overtime, trying to meet the deadline set by him. However, summer holidays have apparently begun a bit early in New Delhi for these personnel as no RFP is in the offing or maybe the heat being generated by the contract has become a bit too hot for them to handle, as the ACM's confession would now appear to show.
For the record, it would be correct to quote ACM Fali H Major on the matter: "Even I don't know when it (RFP) will be issued. As and when all the (concerned) issues are resolved, it will be issued." ACM Major, also took care to stress that the delay in acquiring the 126 combat jets would not have a "negative" impact on the force.
"There are many elements that have to be factored in (after a new defence procurement policy was pronounced last year). Therefore, it is taking time," Air Chief Marshal Fali Major maintained during his first media interaction after assuming office on March 31.
"Does this have a negative impact? I don't think so. This is because it's already been factored (into the IAF's perspective plans)," added Major.
"Any credible air force has to learn to fight with what it has," said Major.
Defence? Let's have a scandal instead…
Indeed, it does. Brave words from the force's chief, but unfortunately the comment leaves the brave boys in blue neither here nor quite there. The country's friendly neighbourhood air force's, that of China and Pakistan, are already inducting the latest 4+ generation fighter aircraft. The jointly developed JF-17 Thunder has already begun entering service with the Pakistani and Chinese air forces.
In Pakistan's case matters go further with the Bush administration clearing the sale of the Block 50/52 F-16 Fighting Falcon's. The point behind the sale of these F-16's is not the aircraft itself but the avionic upgrades and the latest munitions that they come along with. These supplies effectively fritter away whatever technological advantage the IAF had built up over the last few years. Even as it loses its advantage the IAF now has to sit back and watch as the civilian 'decision making' process meanders its way through 'strategic imperatives' that essentially tries to be all things to all people.
The point is not to demean the 'imperatives' that govern policy making in a complicated international environment. But some pompous policy making individual, politician or bureaucrat, will have to stand up and explain what are the 'imperatives' that have been delaying the decision on an issue that has been pending for six years at the very least, have cost the lives of scores of pilots, young and experienced and has caused hundreds of crore of rupees in losses to the national exchequer.
More than all of this has the country's defence preparedness paid a price - or miraculously has that remained unaffected all this while. May be the whole point is to make ad-hoc purchases and tide over a crisis.
The purchase orders for an additional lot of 40 Su-30MKIs will help the air force breathe easy in spite of the delay over the RFP - and may be that is what ACM Major is referring to when he says that the delay is 'factored in' and that there would be no negative impact.
Maybe that is what the latest round of controversies are also all about - the one about the latest purchases of Su-30MKIs not meeting 'offset' clause requirements. And the even more strange one of Russia refusing to sign the 'integrity pact' for defence purchases. Speculation, suspicion and scandal - necessary ingredients to any defence contract in this country.
'Policy imperatives,' pompous policy makers and 'defence scandals' lurking round the corner - that is what needs to be factored in when you are talking about Indian defence. Yes, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major is right when he says, "Any credible air force has to learn to fight with what it has." That is what Indian defence forces have been doing their entire career.
May be it is time to introduce some 'People's democracy' a la China, which has been sailing along into super power glory with the highest military expenditures in the world over the last two decades, or some military 'democracy' a la Pakistan, whose entire 'national' life is geared to feeding the military establishment.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070409_indian_air_force.htm
BATMAN
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Thank you for being very modest on Pakistan's behalf but the fact is Pakistan and China are LEADING, way far. :flag:
What!!!! You find it funny... you need some sleep, come tomorrow and read again.
I told this before but than you ridiculed me.
I hope, from now on you will be bit more respectful to what I wrote.
Now, due the induction of JF-17 in PAF. LCA is the focal point in India, there will be no MMRCA till LCA see any light.
Perhaps we should be considering to appologising the members who wasted there energies on fake idea.
Adux
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Actually, NO; China in some areas, Pakistan you are trailing, but still best of luck.
I told this before but than you ridiculed me.
I hope, from now on you will be bit more respectful to what I wrote.
Now, due the induction of JF-17 in PAF. LCA is the focal point in India, there will be no MMRCA till LCA see any light.
Perhaps we should be considering to appologising the members who wasted there energies on fake idea
JF-17 into Pakistan, are you serious. That is only there to make up numbers, I consider the F-16 Block 52++ with its conformal tank, RCS reduction, a wonderful Radar and missile (Aim120C), as Pakistan's trump card, not that Jf-17. You want me cut you some slack; dont come to me with chinese junk. i have zero respect.
MMRCA, i dont think I said anything else other than "Even god doesnt believe that he knows about Indian Procurement Policies". MMRCA and LCA are not related, I dont have the time to explain it to you also. MMRCA is for the strike componenet of the IAF, LCA is a point defence fighter. There are only 4 JF-17 till now while you 6 LCA's flying and 4 more coming by the end of the year. 2010 IAF is slated to take the delivery of 28LCA's. Thankyou.
BATMAN
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Thank you again, We'll make sure, not to disappoint you.
Yes It's serious, and I heard PAF intend to raise those numbers to 250-300.
For you every thing that is made out side India is junk. e.g. Russinas are junk, why would any one else have exception.
I never said LCA and MMRCA will have same role in IAF and Thank God you finally accepted that all about MMRCA was illusion.
BTW, that was a hell of a circuis, Russians flying Mig-35 all the way to India, Japanese lured in to the Typhoon negotiations, rejecting American offers, discussing shares purchase with BAe and so on and on...
If we believe you that HAL had already started serial production and IAF will have 4+6 (10) LCA by 2007 end than 18 more will be build and delivered to IAF by 2010 that makes 6/year, by this formulae IAF had to wait 50 years to receive 300 LCA.
If nothing is wrong with my calculation.
Adux
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India to buy and manufacture F-16I?
March 22, 2007 (by Sadananda) - India has been offered the advanced F-16I Sufa, according to Defence News. The F-16I is a version specifically designed and built for Israel. As part of the deal, 108 of the 126 aircraft would be manufactured in India.
The F-16I 'Sufa' for the Israeli Air Force at the roll-out ceremony on November 14th, 2003, at LMTAS' Fort Worth facility. The F-16I features a dorsal spine, CFTs, and distributed RWR's, along with improved avionics.In a Tel Aviv-datelined dispatch, it said, "Fighter jets vying for India's $8 billion Medium-range Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program may have to make room for a late entry: the Lockheed Martin F-16I "Sufa" (Storm). The Sufa has a significant amount of content manufactured by Israeli defense industries, designed in accordance with the technical specifications of the Israel Air Force (IAF).
In an unprecedented move aimed at sharpening its edge over fellow US and international competitors, Lockheed Martin is eyeing the F-16I since mid last year as a low-cost, high-performance alternative to the French Rafale, the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing's F/A-18E/F and the Russian MiG-35."
The report, quoting US and Israeli sources, said that the precise configuration of the single-engine aircraft offered would depend on the operational and industrial requirements detailed in New Delhi's upcoming request for proposals (RfP). However, Lockheed's Fort Worth, Texas, Aeronautics unit has begun asking the US government for third-country export licences.
"We have submitted a request for licensing of an F-16 configuration that we think will match the Indian Air Force requirements, pending our receipt of the RfP," said Lockheed Martin spokesman Joe Stout. He declined to elaborate on specific technologies and subsystems that could be included in the company's bid. He said a team dedicated to the MMRCA programme has been working since the beginning of the year on a number of F-16 configurations that may prove more compatible with operational needs as well as New Delhi's requirements for offsets and industrial cooperation. Other options could include a variant of the F-16 block 60, which carries advanced US avionics and the Northrop Grumman APG-80 active electronically scanned radar, or on the Block 50/52 versions flown by the US Air Force and now being produced for several air forces.
Defence News, an online military and defence news portal, said if Lockheed offered the F-16I to India, it would be the first time an extensively modified US fighter containing non-US-made avionics, weaponry and major sub-systems had been offered at the front end of an international competition. Lockheed has sold to Chile and Singapore F-16s that contained significant Israeli content, but those items were demanded by the customers from the start. "To the best of my knowledge, the idea of pitching a US fighter with significant, technologically advanced third-party content hasn't been done before," said Richard Aboulafia, vice president for analysis at the Teal Group, a Fairfax, Va.-based aerospace and defense consulting firm. "If this is the case, and the US government allows Lockheed to offer a clone of the Israel Air Force plane, it's another indication of the unprecedented military and diplomatic initiatives being taken to promote a US win in this strategically important programme."
The new MMRCAs are expected to complement New Delhi's high-end fleet of Su-30MKIs and the lower-end, locally developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. Initial requests for information called for 18 aircraft to be delivered directly from the prime contractor, with 108 to be produced under license in India. Since then, however, the Indian Air Force has been lobbying to expand the buy to more than 200 planes, as a hedge against additional delays of the Tejas. Indian Air Force sources said MMRCA orders could be split among two countries. According to these sources, a decision to award more than one contract would speed deliveries to the Air Force while doubling the political benefits to be accrued through tandem cooperative programmes
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2240.html
March 22, 2007 (by Sadananda) - India has been offered the advanced F-16I Sufa, according to Defence News. The F-16I is a version specifically designed and built for Israel. As part of the deal, 108 of the 126 aircraft would be manufactured in India.
The F-16I 'Sufa' for the Israeli Air Force at the roll-out ceremony on November 14th, 2003, at LMTAS' Fort Worth facility. The F-16I features a dorsal spine, CFTs, and distributed RWR's, along with improved avionics.In a Tel Aviv-datelined dispatch, it said, "Fighter jets vying for India's $8 billion Medium-range Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program may have to make room for a late entry: the Lockheed Martin F-16I "Sufa" (Storm). The Sufa has a significant amount of content manufactured by Israeli defense industries, designed in accordance with the technical specifications of the Israel Air Force (IAF).
In an unprecedented move aimed at sharpening its edge over fellow US and international competitors, Lockheed Martin is eyeing the F-16I since mid last year as a low-cost, high-performance alternative to the French Rafale, the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing's F/A-18E/F and the Russian MiG-35."
The report, quoting US and Israeli sources, said that the precise configuration of the single-engine aircraft offered would depend on the operational and industrial requirements detailed in New Delhi's upcoming request for proposals (RfP). However, Lockheed's Fort Worth, Texas, Aeronautics unit has begun asking the US government for third-country export licences.
"We have submitted a request for licensing of an F-16 configuration that we think will match the Indian Air Force requirements, pending our receipt of the RfP," said Lockheed Martin spokesman Joe Stout. He declined to elaborate on specific technologies and subsystems that could be included in the company's bid. He said a team dedicated to the MMRCA programme has been working since the beginning of the year on a number of F-16 configurations that may prove more compatible with operational needs as well as New Delhi's requirements for offsets and industrial cooperation. Other options could include a variant of the F-16 block 60, which carries advanced US avionics and the Northrop Grumman APG-80 active electronically scanned radar, or on the Block 50/52 versions flown by the US Air Force and now being produced for several air forces.
Defence News, an online military and defence news portal, said if Lockheed offered the F-16I to India, it would be the first time an extensively modified US fighter containing non-US-made avionics, weaponry and major sub-systems had been offered at the front end of an international competition. Lockheed has sold to Chile and Singapore F-16s that contained significant Israeli content, but those items were demanded by the customers from the start. "To the best of my knowledge, the idea of pitching a US fighter with significant, technologically advanced third-party content hasn't been done before," said Richard Aboulafia, vice president for analysis at the Teal Group, a Fairfax, Va.-based aerospace and defense consulting firm. "If this is the case, and the US government allows Lockheed to offer a clone of the Israel Air Force plane, it's another indication of the unprecedented military and diplomatic initiatives being taken to promote a US win in this strategically important programme."
The new MMRCAs are expected to complement New Delhi's high-end fleet of Su-30MKIs and the lower-end, locally developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. Initial requests for information called for 18 aircraft to be delivered directly from the prime contractor, with 108 to be produced under license in India. Since then, however, the Indian Air Force has been lobbying to expand the buy to more than 200 planes, as a hedge against additional delays of the Tejas. Indian Air Force sources said MMRCA orders could be split among two countries. According to these sources, a decision to award more than one contract would speed deliveries to the Air Force while doubling the political benefits to be accrued through tandem cooperative programmes
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2240.html
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