Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[gogbot]

For one thing we are actually giving you the technology, not just letting you use the equipment. The French and the Israelis or Americans wont. The French wont even give you the source codes for their Thales radar (saab terminated their cooperation with Thales btw) so India would have to give all parameters to France before making any changes.
From a technology standpoint neither of those countries you listed has any type of advantage when it comes to fighter jet technology.
Saab has pioneered a lot of the modern fighter jet systems such as datalinks etc which we had on our old Viggen jets long before any other country.

The only competitor with a clear tech advantage is the F35 on account of stealth but that also comes with its drawbacks such as fixed plate aesa radar, super expenisve maintenance, easy to break, limited internal weapon storage and having to deal with American Congress and what not if you want to paint as much as an emblem on the chassis.

Actually France has offered tull ToT including source codes

domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale

You let me list all the offered by the company's so we all have the same Info more or less.

The Dassault Rafale is a French twin-engined delta-wing agile multi-role fighter aircraft designed and built by Dassault Aviation. The Rafale was brought in as the replacement for the Mirage 2000-5 that was originally a competitor for the tender, after the production lines for the Mirage closed down, as well as the entry of much more advanced aircraft into the competition.

The Rafale has the advantage of being logistically and operationally similar to the Mirage 2000, which the IAF already operates and used with great success during the Kargil War (see Operation Safed Sagar). This would require fewer changes in the existing infrastructure of the IAF, which in turn will reduce cost. Moreover, being 100 per cent French also provided Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the issue of technology transfer. Dassault claims that the Rafale has an advantage over many of the competitors because it is not subject to ITAR restrictions.

The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be. Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.

Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. Concerns have been raised about cost issues as well as potential sales to Pakistan, which has also expressed interest in the Rafale. However, no such jets have been sold to Pakistan, and India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".

Dassult has also partnered with GTRE to develop the Kaveri MK-2
Allowing the engine to be more readily adaptable for the Rafael and of course providing a new domestic engine

New radar could boost Rafale's export prospects

The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine multi-role canard-delta strike fighter aircraft, designed and built by a consortium of European aerospace manufacturers through Eurofighter GmbH.

Eurofighter is offering the Tranche-3 Typhoon for the Indian requirement, equipped with the Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar. EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for new Eurofighters.

In January 2010, EADS offered to include thrust vectoring nozzles (TVNs) with the Typhoon's EJ200 engines for India. Thrust vectoring will improve operational capabilities, and reduce fuel burn by up to 5 percent and increase thrust while supersonic cruising by 7 percent.

the EJ2000 is also on offer for the LCA-mk2

Eurofighter sweetens its India offer

Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force

Eurofighter consortium seeks to reinforce relationship with India - Forbes.com

The U.S. Navy operates over 340 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets (with 411 on order), and is presently the only user of the aircraft. Australia is buying 24 F/A-18Fs, and Boeing is trying to gain other contracts as well. The MMRCA contract represents a prime opportunity for U.S. defence companies to gain a foothold in the Indian defence market, which is estimated to be about US$100 billion in the next 10 years.

Initially, the Request for Information (RFI) was not issued to Boeing, which decided to field the Super Hornet. The U.S. Government allowed Boeing to participate in the RFI, and later gave permission for RFP (Request For Proposal) as well. However, any sale of aircraft will need to be approved by the U.S. Congress.

Initial reactions within the IAF were enthusiastic, although there were apprehensions of support issues in case of future sanctions. There were concern over the availability of the Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA radar, but export of the radar has been approved by the U.S. government. The US has stated that there would be some restrictions and pre-conditions for the purchase of the aircraft.

On 24 April 2008, Boeing (through the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi) submitted their 7000-page proposal to the Ministry of Defence, before the April 28 deadline for the submission for proposals. The Super Hornet variant being offered to India, the F/A-18IN, is based on the F/A-18E/F model flown by the U.S. Navy and currently being built for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar is being offered on the aircraft. There will be a limited ToT on the radar, up to the level approved by the US Government. However, Raytheon has stated that the level of ToT offered will be compliant with the RFP requirements. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award.

Boeing has proposed joint manufacture of the jets with Indian partners. It also plans to offset the cost by setting up a US$100 million maintenance and training hub in Nagpur. This is the first time the Super Hornet has been offered for production in a foreign country. On 14 February 2008, Boeing and Tata Industries agreed to form a joint-venture company. The new entity, which will be formed in June 2008, will supply components for Boeing military aircraft, including the Super Hornet.

In order to satisfy its offset requirements, Boeing has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Tata Industries, and Larsen and Toubro, who will play a significant role in production and assembly of the aircraft.

Boeing is participating in almost every major India defense purchase, as a comapany it seems ready to sell us its entire catalog.

Now its up to the us State department on how much ToT is made available

The Engines used on the F-18 are also on offer to the LCA-mk 2 engine bid.

Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters

Boeing seeks leverage on Indian fighter order: AINonline

Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters

Raytheon to transfer AESA radar technology to India up to the level permitted by US government | India Defence

Your Defence News - Sale of military equipment: US wants India to accept conditions

The Indian Navy has also Issued RFI for all these aircraft. adding furhter weight and Possible order's to their bids.

And this is SAAB's offer

The Saab JAS 39 Gripen (Griffin or "Gryphon") is a fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company Saab. The aircraft is in service with the Swedish, Czech, Hungarian and the South African air forces, and has been ordered by the Royal Thai Air Force.

The Gripen was one of the aircraft that the IAF sent the Request for Information. The Gripen participated at Aero India 2007, where one JAS 39C (single seater) and two JAS 39D (two-seater) variants were brought. Gripen International is offering the Gripen IN, a version of the Gripen NG (Next Generation) for India's competition.The Gripen NG has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements.

And also the IAF has decided not to get the F-35 II due to the fact it wont be available till the end of the decade. By then they will have the FGFA.

France has the best offer from a pure technology standpoint. 100% ToT and AESA source code.

Euro Fighter is offering partnership in its program ensuring the India participates in Future Developments.

Boeing of course offer access to American tech, bot not to the level of the European bids but still meeting the Contract requirements

Rafael would be the best pick by all standards.

But as you can see Euro-fighter and Boeing still make some attractive offer's. and politically The decision is tilted to the latter.

But we never know do we, It may very well be the French in the End.

 

[sancho]

i agree but who should we partner with.

As I said before, imo France is the best partner for LCA, because only they can offer us help in any field, where the LCA still have problems. They can offer not only a co-developed engine, but also an integrated IRST system, they have experience in making a fighter carrier capable (if IN still want to go for N-LCA), if Elta 2052 can't be offered because of possible US parts (read some rumors about that as US vetoed the AESA co-development for Gripen NG), RBE 2 AESA could be a good alternative and it even offers source codes. Not to forget that France can offer us good alternative weapons if IAF, or export customers don't want to use Russian weapons.

The French wont even give you the source codes for their Thales radar (saab terminated their cooperation with Thales btw) so India would have to give all parameters to France before making any changes.

As gogbot showed you, France offers full ToT and source codes (was the first contender that made such an offer!) and as far as I know, not Saab terminated Thales, but Saab was terminated by Thales! Dassault owns a good amount of Thales shares and when the Gripen NG was offered to India and Brazil in competiton to Rafale, Dassault played their cards and let Thales stop the co-development of an AESA radar for the Gripen NG demonstrator. This was only one example how dependent the NG is on other nations and why I still have some doubts about its ToT and source codes offer.
Anyway, the only chance I see for the NG in India is, if there will be the same issue of buying the cheapest that fullfil the requirements that we seen in the tanker competition. The cost-effectiveness of the NG can't even be beaten by the Migs and as it also is a multi role fighter, it should fullfill the main reqirements. But this solution would not be the best for IAF, nor will it get India any political, or stratigical advantages.

 

[freethinker]

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I've purposefully left out my personal opinion on what plane would be the best fit as i don't have enough knowledge in that area. To weigh in i don't hold much hope for the Gripen in India but i do have on good authority that transfer of technology wont be an issue. Nor has it been an issue on any of our exported C and D versions which has significantly more American technology in them.

Its certainly interesting times and i´m really looking forward to see who Brazil and India will choose. The Rafale definitely deserves some export sales.

 

[gogbot]

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I've purposefully left out my personal opinion on what plane would be the best fit as i don't have enough knowledge in that area. To weigh in i don't hold much hope for the Gripen in India but i do have on good authority that transfer of technology wont be an issue. Nor has it been an issue on any of our exported C and D versions which has significantly more American technology in them.

Its certainly interesting times and i´m really looking forward to see who Brazil and India will choose. The Rafale definitely deserves some export sales.

I heard Brazil has chosen Rafael last year.

And Dassault even went as far as to slash the Price by 40%

 

[sancho]

I heard Brazil has chosen Rafael last year.

And Dassault even went as far as to slash the Price by 40%

The deal is still not really decided, Brazilian president and defense minister prefer the Rafale, because of full ToT+source codes offer, the stratigic advantage of France for all forces and in political terms and because it is the independent choice. US vetoed the sale of several Brazilian arms to other South American nations in the past, because they used US techs in them, that's why Brazil now want an independent and veto/sanctionprove solution with as much ToT as possible (interesting point for MMRCA and LCA with a possible US engine too!!!).
The FAB (Brazilian air force) has made an evaluation report that was leacked to the media, which says they prefer the Gripen NG. One reason might be Embraer, which has close relations to FAB and Saab (Embraer Erieye for example) and the fact that the NG is still under development and Brazil could be a partner of it. Another point are the costs, the NG is less expensive and they could buy higher numbers of NGs with their budget, then Rafales. Altough the Rafale is more capable, it don't have to be the best fighter for their threat environment. Unlike in Indias case, their opponents don't have that big and capable air force fleets, so a higher number of NGs might be sufficient enough.

Will be interesting to see who will win!

 

[gogbot]

The deal is still not really decided, Brazilian president and defense minister prefer the Rafale, because of full ToT+source codes offer, the stratigic advantage of France for all forces and in political terms and because it is the independent choice. US vetoed the sale of several Brazilian arms to other South American nations in the past, because they used US techs in them, that's why Brazil now want an independent and veto/sanctionprove solution with as much ToT as possible (interesting point for MMRCA and LCA with a possible US engine too!!!).
The FAB (Brazilian air force) has made an evaluation report that was leacked to the media, which says they prefer the Gripen NG. One reason might be Embraer, which has close relations to FAB and Saab (Embraer Erieye for example) and the fact that the NG is still under development and Brazil could be a partner of it. Another point are the costs, the NG is less expensive and they could buy higher numbers of NGs with their budget, then Rafales. Altough the Rafale is more capable, it don't have to be the best fighter for their threat environment. Unlike in Indias case, their opponents don't have that big and capable air force fleets, so a higher number of NGs might be sufficient enough.

Will be interesting to see who will win!

That's an understatement.

A super expanding and growing China on one end.

and A military governed Pakistan with Chinese toys on the other end.

and if it wasn't enough we all decided to play with Nukes as well.

Brazilians dont know how easy they have it being the most powerful nation in the southern Hemisphere.

When they want to grow economically they dont worry about Nuclear war, or the rapidly expanding armed forces of their neighbors.

 

[RPK]

He said his country would also offer full technology for the multi-role fighter jet Typhoon and even start manufacturing the aircraft in India without insisting on end-user agreement.


Germany planning multiple pacts with India

 

[Hulk]

wow, with so many different offers coming India's way, we are sure to get boast in our defense capabilities. We will be manufacturing a lot of stuff after 5 years, the time it will take for these things to start showing impact.

 

[sancho]

wow, with so many different offers coming India's way, we are sure to get boast in our defense capabilities. We will be manufacturing a lot of stuff after 5 years, the time it will take for these things to start showing impact.

That's right 2014/15 will be the most interesting time, because we should see MMRCA, LCA MK2 and upg Su 30 MKIs beeing inducted into IAF.

 

[sancho]

Bad (but expected) news for EF!

In March 2010 will complete the study for the installation of radar active devices scanned (AESA) in the Eurofighter Typhoon, a mechanism for repositioning (repositioner) antenna for greater coverage...
...Mr. Chilntits said the AESA radar will be installed beginning in the Eurofighter Tranche 3B around 2015 and back to the fighters of Tranche 2 and 3A. Of the 6 Flight Line Replacement Information (LRI) of Captor, maintained and modified the receiver / processor and replaced the mechanical antenna and the transmitter device of AESA, the band waveguides by a new beam-forming unit (beamformer) and the power supply.

Countdown to the AESA radar of Eurofighter

That means no EF for IAF with AESA in 2013/14, when the first MMRCA winners should arrive and the licence production in India should start.

 

[gogbot]

Bad (but expected) news for EF!



Countdown to the AESA radar of Eurofighter

That means no EF for IAF with AESA in 2013/14, when the first MMRCA winners should arrive and the licence production in India should start.

Well thats pretty much it, for EF.


Boeing it is then. with a vague distan chance for Rafael

 

[Hulk]

Well thats pretty much it, for EF.


Boeing it is then. with a vague distan chance for Rafael

The order is going to be split 100 each or maybe more between Rafael and SH. With Rafael comes TOT which helps LCA and MCA, with SH we get best AESA.

 

[gogbot]

The order is going to be split 100 each or maybe more between Rafael and SH. With Rafael comes TOT which helps LCA and MCA, with SH we get best AESA.

Come on you know it is not going to be split.

The costs would be to high.

Although i can certainly understand how we would be getting the best of both world through this method.

Its drain on logistics.

But if we retire all our migs, except the Mig-29 and replace them with the two planes it would be acceptable.

Dam, i would want them to choose this option but.

but it is just a dream, they show no intention on choosing dual platforms.

 

[RPK]

Russia Offer Development of Advanced RADARs to India

As the race in the Indian Air Force's $10-billion tender for 126 combat jets reached the crucial stage of flight trials, Russia, on top of a full technology transfer, is offering India
help in building its own advanced radar. This would put India in the elite league of manufacturers of some of the most sophisticated defence equipment.

"We are ready to develop a new advanced radar jointly with India," said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, head of the Phazotron-NIIR Corporation. The company has built Russia's first Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Zhuk-ME, for the MiG-35 fighter, the Russian contender in the IAF tender for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Two planes will go to India next month for flight evaluation trials.

Also in the fray are the U.S. F-16 and F-18, the French Dassault's Rafale, the Swedish Saab Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Transfer of technology is a prime requirement in the MMRCA tender, but as far as the radar is concerned, Russia alone seems prepared to meet the demand in full. "Out of six-seven countries in the world that have the know-how to build radars for combat jets, only two — Russia and the U.S. — domestically produce the full range of radar components," Phazotron's chief designer Yuri Guskov said.

Raytheon, the U.S. company that manufactures radars for the F-18 fighter, has already said it would only transfer "limited" technology "up to the level the U.S. government allows us." This means America's European competitors in the MMRCA tender will also face restrictions on the transfer of technologies sourced from U.S. companies. Russia is the only bidder which does not depend on the U.S. for any aircraft technologies, including the radar.

 

[karan.1970]

The order is going to be split 100 each or maybe more between Rafael and SH. With Rafael comes TOT which helps LCA and MCA, with SH we get best AESA.

My money is on Mig 35 or F 18 with a tilt towards Mig 35