Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

ANY purchase is first and foremost weighted against cost benefit ratio.

Nonsense! Any purchase first and foremost weighted against the requirements you have! If you want an Ipad because it's easier to conect with your Iphone, you won't by a Samsung Tablet only because it's cheaper. Similarly, we have operational requirements (set by IAF) and industrial requirements (set by MoD/GoI) , which needs to be fulfilled in the first place. That's why we asked vendors for proposals, based on the requirements we set up and didn't asked just for a price and choose the cheapest. After evaluating all fighters against these requirements, the 2 that suit them the most were shortlisted and only then the cost came into the game and the "offer" that were overall the cheapest was selected!

That's the reality in M-MRCA!

 

[sancho]

TY Sancho, i'm in contact with Scorpion and his explanations help a lot. but SRP14 Step1 is sensed to be P2Ea, and Step2 PE2b. Maybe they switched Meteor integration from P2Eb to P2Ea, or the capability will be tested before but the induction in forces will go with P2Eb

Yes he knows pretty much about the EF, for me all these codes shows what's wrong with the EF, too complicated. Tranches, Blocks, SRPs and even within them splits into A and B...
That's why I only focus on the actual timelines for the upgrades (which alone is though, since the EF program is slow and timelines are alwas slipping) and they are actually consistent, with METEOR integration only expected for 2016.
However, more than Storm Shadow and METEOR my interest is on Brimstone and SPEAR 3 and I guess the end of the year could bring some changes of their time lines.

LCA is still dreams away from becoming a potent realistic weapon.

The problem is not that it's not potent enough, in fact even LCA MK1 will be very potent and a good contribution to IAFs operational lo end. The real problem is the public perception that LCA is something special, only because it's an indigenous development!
But being indigenous doesn't make it more capable than Rafale, nor that it complies to M-MRCA operational requirements (not even basic once like AESA radar, G-limit, TWR, induction by 2015/16...). So no matter how cheap it can be, it doesn't offer what we want.
It will be good for what it was aimed to, basic interception and CAS roles, setting up basic indigenous aero industry, gaining know how and experience in fighter design and developments. But none of this is important for the M-MRCA.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Precisely thats what i had tried to explain. We are trying to compare LCA and make it sound like the very best in everything. We should realise what its aimed for. Its a replacement for our Low end awesome jets like Mig 21. Doing so, we hope that our industry would take into a good shape and help us build more things with know how and experience.

Rafale need is very much there in IAF and TOT will help our industry too. But i also feel that too many journos and paid publications quoting absurd deal figures is running a vendetta against it. When the deal is signed we all would know the price and the package and the add ons. So why we all hate or spew venom against good platform just based on half baked stories.

lets quote an example. We all have grounded Su30 MKI now perhaps the 3rd time since we had 5 crashes in last 5-6 years. So does it mean its a dud aircraft? or take it back a bit more.. was Mig21 was really a flying coffin.. the fact was mig 21 was and is a difficult flying machine and is perhaps the only one whom hardcore pilots say is very agile and capable. but its also an unforgiving type machine where a single error makes it go topsy turvy.. Yet Media and print spun a story which made all people feel its the worst and everytime one flies he is surely gng to die and a mother will lose a son and nation a pilot.

Lastly everyone should also realise that 6 jets were there in MMRCA and finally rafale was L1 beating everybody else. So what can you say? was tests a dud... if we want a bird which meets IAF requirement and we cant produce such machines domestically then we should be in a manner ready to pay the price quoted. We can negotiate bargain and get goodies but lets not live in a dream and say my TATA Nano is as good as Honda City or a Mercedes benz or a BMW or Audi.. (Even though there are better Ferraris, Mclarens and high end cars also there which i have not listed.)

 

[Kloitra]

No, but that 2 LCAs + 1 Su 30 can't replace Rafale in deep strikes with cruise missiles, by the simple fact that LCA is not even close to be as capable as Rafale in performance, weapon carrying capability or range and that even the MKI won't be fit for this role until Brahmos is ready. So the unit cost is totally unimportant for the operational worth of the fighter in IAF, just as it is totally unimportant for the benefits we want for our industry with the M-MRCA. As long as you keep ignoring what actually is important in this competition, you will keep getting the wrong conclusions.

Is Mki as capable as Rafale for SEAD missions?

 

[sancho]

Is Mki as capable as Rafale for SEAD missions?

They do it differently, the Russian fighters attack radars with anti radiation missiles, while Rafale targets the radar and the SAMs at once with AASM. The detection capabilities of Rafale against ground radars should be better though.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Nonsense! Any purchase first and foremost weighted against the requirements you have! If you want an Ipad because it's easier to conect with your Iphone, you won't by a Samsung Tablet only because it's cheaper. Similarly, we have operational requirements (set by IAF) and industrial requirements (set by MoD/GoI) , which needs to be fulfilled in the first place. That's why we asked vendors for proposals, based on the requirements we set up and didn't asked just for a price and choose the cheapest. After evaluating all fighters against these requirements, the 2 that suit them the most were shortlisted and only then the cost came into the game and the "offer" that were overall the cheapest was selected!

That's the reality in M-MRCA!

LOL. When you grow older you will understand that when the enemy introduces a lower cost of waging war while extracting a higher cost from us, it gives birth to "requirements". "Cost" is the Father of "requirements".

 

[Storm Force]

Can somebody plz confirm what is the likely realistically date when this deal may actuallybe signed finally

 

[Taygibay]

December 13 for 13.13 Billion and India gets a free nuclear plant and Versailles as signing bonuses!



Good day all, Tay.

 

[Trawllu]

No, but that 2 LCAs + 1 Su 30 can't replace Rafale in deep strikes with cruise missiles, by the simple fact that LCA is not even close to be as capable as Rafale in performance, weapon carrying capability or range and that even the MKI won't be fit for this role until Brahmos is ready. So the unit cost is totally unimportant for the operational worth of the fighter in IAF, just as it is totally unimportant for the benefits we want for our industry with the M-MRCA. As long as you keep ignoring what actually is important in this competition, you will keep getting the wrong conclusions.

brahmos will be ready by 2019 the 1st raale wont arive beofre 2018 - how much time it will take IAF to evolve operational doctrines around rafale ?

even on this count Su30 Comes out on top

IF we have 2 LCA it will l;essen need of Su30 on many fronts

so they are free for more deeper strike missions

on PAK front how much Deep strike do you envisage anything more than 1000 Kms and we will be bombing Iran/ Afghanistan

LCA is still dreams away from becoming a potent realistic weapon. We may be gung ho on our own domestic platforms but realistically LCA (Even 2 in nos with different combinations mk1 mk2) + MKI does not make us any better as compared to 1 rafale. The argument of having superior numbers is good no doubt but potency of a platform is not judged by just numbers alone.

An example is the roles that are assigned to such aircrafts. LCA can and will be used to protect India's vital air corridor upto 750-1000 kms from its base of operations. All this without extra Drop tank and arming with max missile and ammunition. Officially MK1 can do 750 kms as per SP1 configuration and i believe MK2 is being tasked to increase it to 1000 Kms. Su30 MKI same stats is upto 3000 kms without mid air refuelling and drop tanks. Its true LCA is dirt cheap. but the missions which can be assigned to LCA (present MK1 and proposed MK2) seems to be limited as their specific role and capabilities are also limited . if we do develop and make it more potent with integration of latest technologies then yes there is a scope of wider mission capabilities in future. But whats the realistic time frame for such a capability to come in. to my own estimate around 2028-2030 for LCA MK2 to be a matured enough platform to do what a gen 4 or 4.5++ could accomplish. This is where the next 15-20 years the gap is suppose to be there. and on top we have to retire our ageing fleet who have already stretched much beyond limits with our upgrades and excellent pilots skills whom we cant afford to lose and are far more valuable. this gap is not possible to filled with FGFA which again is on paper as of now (dont quote PAKFA as India specifications are not met by PAKFA heck we dont even know if india has access to Pakfa so realistically even pakfa is 2025++ for us) and will be assigned a different role and class . FGFA is heavy class and rafale is medium (on weight)

The reality is that Indian programs like LCA had been and is still a slow program. We were not able to foresight the need of a medium range platform in 90s and hence we never had any program domestically for that. As LCA was still in building blocks, the medium weight category was never thought of domestically. Another good example is AMCA . If we were so serious then whats the state of AMCA? whats the time line there?.

We can state whatever we want in pro and con of the deal argument. Unfortunately since we did not foresee, invest enough in our own defense industry and get credible results, we have to depend on platforms which may seem a bit costly as compared to any cheap indigenous or semi ingenious production.

India does not have a choice. It needs Rafale. France does not have a choice. It needs Rafale orders beyond its force requirement to keep its manufacturing lines going and to fund future upgrades. Its a need for both. Whatever the deal cost is, which i am sure that it is still being not divulged in public domain and all journos are just giving brain fart figure, the deal should help us with enough TOT to make our own industry mature. If we succeed that then yes, we could then be self reliant on our homegrown jets in future. Till then we have to shop abroad.

can you name some missions which LCA cant perform ?

can you tell me how much time it takes to integrte new weapons with LCA platform ?
(in kargil we did it overnight - israeli pods, ammo with Mirage 2000 source code all ) we did it in less than 20 days

so you are telling me for our own LCA we cant do it in 2-3 years ?

are you sure ?

 

[Trawllu]

Precisely thats what i had tried to explain. We are trying to compare LCA and make it sound like the very best in everything. We should realise what its aimed for. Its a replacement for our Low end awesome jets like Mig 21. Doing so, we hope that our industry would take into a good shape and help us build more things with know how and experience.

Rafale need is very much there in IAF and TOT will help our industry too. But i also feel that too many journos and paid publications quoting absurd deal figures is running a vendetta against it. When the deal is signed we all would know the price and the package and the add ons. So why we all hate or spew venom against good platform just based on half baked stories.

lets quote an example. We all have grounded Su30 MKI now perhaps the 3rd time since we had 5 crashes in last 5-6 years. So does it mean its a dud aircraft? or take it back a bit more.. was Mig21 was really a flying coffin.. the fact was mig 21 was and is a difficult flying machine and is perhaps the only one whom hardcore pilots say is very agile and capable. but its also an unforgiving type machine where a single error makes it go topsy turvy.. Yet Media and print spun a story which made all people feel its the worst and everytime one flies he is surely gng to die and a mother will lose a son and nation a pilot.

Lastly everyone should also realise that 6 jets were there in MMRCA and finally rafale was L1 beating everybody else. So what can you say? was tests a dud... if we want a bird which meets IAF requirement and we cant produce such machines domestically then we should be in a manner ready to pay the price quoted. We can negotiate bargain and get goodies but lets not live in a dream and say my TATA Nano is as good as Honda City or a Mercedes benz or a BMW or Audi.. (Even though there are better Ferraris, Mclarens and high end cars also there which i have not listed.)

Yes he knows pretty much about the EF, for me all these codes shows what's wrong with the EF, too complicated. Tranches, Blocks, SRPs and even within them splits into A and B...
That's why I only focus on the actual timelines for the upgrades (which alone is though, since the EF program is slow and timelines are alwas slipping) and they are actually consistent, with METEOR integration only expected for 2016.
However, more than Storm Shadow and METEOR my interest is on Brimstone and SPEAR 3 and I guess the end of the year could bring some changes of their time lines.



The problem is not that it's not potent enough, in fact even LCA MK1 will be very potent and a good contribution to IAFs operational lo end. The real problem is the public perception that LCA is something special, only because it's an indigenous development!
But being indigenous doesn't make it more capable than Rafale, nor that it complies to M-MRCA operational requirements (not even basic once like AESA radar, G-limit, TWR, induction by 2015/16...). So no matter how cheap it can be, it doesn't offer what we want.
It will be good for what it was aimed to, basic interception and CAS roles, setting up basic indigenous aero industry, gaining know how and experience in fighter design and developments. But none of this is important for the M-MRCA.

both of you guys are fixated on Rafale and getting it wrong

LCA is not replacement for Rafale

Su30 MKi is replacement for Rafale

now tell me is Rafale superior to Rafale


LCA is to be used to ramp up nos and to lower costs (operational) of IAF and to pick up roles like point defence, air interceptions (which would be done by Rafale if Rafale is acquired)
and to free up SU30MKi

for AIR Dominance / Air Superiority, Deep strike roles

if we go for rafale

We will have 272 Su30MKi + 126 Rafale

if we ditch rafale we can have

272 +126 = 398 Su MKI and
252 LCA s

now tell what is better

on one hand IAF is crying for fflling sqn strenght

the best way to increase the SQN Strenght and capability is to DITCH RAFALE

buy 126 Su30MKi + 252 LCAs

 

[halloweene]

You don't get the point. i don't like to enter those dick size contests, but atm yes, Rafale is a superior plane to MKI. Mostly because of its avionics integration which is a generation ahead. Also because its RCS is orders of magnitude lower. Nuke delivery ready. Follow ground dual mode (numeric maps + radar) etc. All in all a more modern plane.
Super sukhoi will partially fill the gap, keep in mind Rafale is also constantly evolving.

But that is not so important. Will super Sukhoi be a better Air dominance in certain environments (with AWACS etc.)? Surely .

The important part is which missions are they aimed to for india?
Sukhoi is definitely not the right beast for example for deep low penetration strike. But it will be an awesome air to air platform.

Comparing apples and oranges...

 

[sancho]

...Tranche 2, Phase 1 Enhancements (P1E). Requires Tranche 2 aircraft; the RAF ordered 67 of those. implements full Air-to-Surface capability, with Helmet Mounted Sight System (HMSS) upgrades for ground attack use, Improved Direct Voice Input for pilots includes prioritization of ground targets, New radar modes, Full integration of the LITENING-III surveillance and targeting pod, Full smart bomb integration (Paveway laser-guided, and dual-mode laser/GPS Paveway IV or EGBU-16 bombs), Mode 5 Identification Friend or Foe, Improved MIDS (Link 16) and radios, Digital integration of Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles (full IRIS-T integration with HMSS for high off-boresight shots, allows future AIM-9X integration), and Praetorian DASS defensive suite upgrades. All of these enhancements will come factory-installed in Tranche 3 aircraft.

BAE is part-way through P1E upgrades, but they’re considered to be tested and qualified. Eurofighter partner nations will be eligible to begin installing P1E enhancement packages starting in 2015, and all of these improvements come standard in Tranche 3 aircraft.

Phase 2 Enhancements (P2E). Tranche 3 aircraft have begun delivery, and the RAF has ordered 40, but they will need added upgrades alongside the Tranche 2s. At present, the confirmed P2E enhancements are all weapons, because the Captor-E AESA radar contract remains unsigned.

P2Ea expects to add MBDA’s Storm Shadow stealthy medium-range cruise missile by the end of 2015, thanks to Middle Eastern financing. Italian tests have reportedly occurred with MBDA’s Marte Mk.2/S light anti-ship missile, but the timeline for integration has been vague.

For P2Eb, MBDA’s Meteor long range air-to-air missile won’t be integrated until 2017, and that upgrade stage would presumably include the Captor-E AESA radar as well. If Italy pushes ahead with Marte Mk.2/S integration but can’t make P2Ea, it would also happen here. Ongoing Praetorian DASS enhancements must be expected as well, along with incremental electronics improvements.

Phase 3 Enhancements (P3E). P3E is still in the study phase, but the UK is expected to issue a 2015 contract to integrate MBDA’s Brimstone radar/laser light strike missile. It’s being talked about as a P3E effort, for fielding by 2018, but its usefulness against the most frequent targets of British air campaigns could see it added sooner as an Urgent Operational Requirement.

The ability of Tranche 3 Typhoons to accommodate dorsal conformal fuel tanks may be very attractive to partner nations like Britain, who are buying a much more limited set of Tranche 3 fighters than expected.

Beyond that, the big questions for P2E and beyond involve weapons. Storm Shadow’s integration already includes flights and tests with Taurus’ KEPD 350 stealthy medium-range cruise missile, and KEPD 350 customers like Germany and Spain could decide to add it, if they ever find the funds. Since their Tornados and F/A-18 Hornets can’t serve forever, at some point they must add it or lose that aerial capability. Full-range anti-ship missiles and anti-radar missiles are also notable weaknesses in the Eurofighter’s arsenal, especially from Britain’s perspective, and new weapons like MBDA UK’s SPEAR 3 medium-range strike missile will be entering the picture.

UK’s Eurofighters Fly To Availability-Based Contracting

 

[halloweene]

Marte is scheduled for P3E. But Brimstone 2 slipped to P2Eb afaik. Thanx for help. Did you read the first part of the article in our blog?
If you did could you borowse it and say if it deserves the heavy work to make an english version?

You'll be interested in that news anw... (about FCAS)

le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Drone de combat FCAS : signatures de contrats le 5 novembre

 

[sancho]

Marte is scheduled for P3E. But Brimstone 2 slipped to P2Eb afaik. Thanx for help. Did you read the first part of the article in our blog?
If you did could you borowse it and say if it deserves the heavy work to make an english version?

You'll be interested in that news anw... (about FCAS)

le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Drone de combat FCAS : signatures de contrats le 5 novembre

Will definitely read it later. I think Matre is dependent on which anti ship missile will be integrated or? Harpoon and Brimstone varients and maybe even NSM might be options too (the latter especially for UK and ITA since it should be integrated into F35). Otherwise the maritim attack role seems to be more interesting for export customers like Saudi Arabia or possibly Qatar as reported.

 

[halloweene]

Definitely. Marte missile is what is commonly heard from the horse mouth, but no clue. Air to Sea iimplementation is a big radar software challenge.