Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Crossposting from IDF, credits to Picdelamirand-oil


Interview with "Vedomosti" President and CEO of Dassault Aviation...


...- Last year you won an exclusive tender in India Procurement fighter Rafale. However, the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence is still not signed. Does your company have time to sign him before the presidential elections in India, scheduled for July 2014 ?

- ( Laughs. ) And that Russian is so well versed in what is happening in India?


- This theme is very interested in Russian aviapromyshlenniki .

- Prepares a huge contract . Rafale sale to India - it is for us something very important . Negotiations began last year, they continue, all is going well . It is always difficult to predict the date of the end of negotiations and the signing of the contract. But we are seeing more activity on the part of our team and the Indian authorities . On such a huge deal to a lot of the time. Everything is complicated by the fact that the Rafale will be manufactured in India - requires a detailed agreement with the Indian aviapromyshlennikami . I am confident that this contract will be signed. And what will happen next year in connection with the Indian elections , I do not presume to comment .


- What is the total amount of the contract ?

- That's confidential information , you must ask this from the Indian government .


- As far as the estimate of $ 20 billion ? (From the interview in French I hear only "a milliard" due to bad prononciation (see the video))

- No, it's much more.


- Tell us about the cooperation with the Russian company KRTV . Will come with her ​​Indian Rafale aircraft weapons ?

- I can not comment on it. Rafale equipment is entirely dependent on the contract with the Government of India , it must address these. This is the first . And second, if the Indian authorities decide to equip their aircraft by Russian rockets and if the French authorities will give this good , I do not see any problem in having to work with the Russian manufacturers and integrate their product...


...- Could you confirm the information Saab that the Rafale flight hour costs 16 000 euros ?

- That's not true . One hour flight Rafale costs about 13,000 euros. But the question is , how much is flight hour Saab aircraft in the same class !


- They claim that their flight hour Gripen fighter is $ 4,000.

- I should note that $ 13,000 per flight hour Rafale - a figure provided by the French Air Force , which themselves use the Rafale, fighting on it and know all the operating conditions of the aircraft . And is not that Dassault Aviation itself alone called such data . I'm not sure that the figure provided by Saab regarding Gripen, is correct. This commercial information for marketing purposes. While it is clear that the Gripen flying hour to be cheaper than the Rafale, - it's a completely different aircraft . It 's like comparing a little car with a big BMW. In single-engine Gripen , an American , I Rafale - the two French . This is a different category of aircraft, all comparisons are flawed .


- Why are your negotiations with India before entering into a contract for the supply of Rafale took a few years?

- The contract is huge and affects the interests of a large group of industrialists , since we are talking about an assembly in India. In India, we have a company with which we are working on this contract. To settle all takes time . But, in my opinion, for India, it is even very fast! ( Laughs. ) I know India and I can say that for a contract of this importance our discussion moved soon enough...

ÂÅÄÎÌÎÑÒÈ - Èíòåðâüþ - Ýðèê Òðàïïüå, ïðåçèäåíò è ãåíäèðåêòîð Dassault Aviation - Âèäåî

 

[Taygibay]

Everyone should keep calm, especially Indians! The Rafale is coming to the IAF!

What was lost in translation apparently is TOT?
I mean, apart from Dassault qualms over HAL's abilities which neither the slower than expected SU_30 production ramp-up
nor the LCA dispelled, the rest of TOT is darn complicated business?
How many times have we heard complaints about the end of such deals being a single desi screwdrivers plant?
If you assess the present state of industry in India honestly, you know that it is not holding all its promises, right?

Now let us suppose that France/Dassault want to uphold their end of the deal honestly ( instead of the slander often heard )
in which case, the details of the organization and contract are indeed where the devil lays? Who does what? When is company X
better suited than a HAL subsidiary both financially, on an industrial standpoint or timeframe-wise? At what real rhythm can the
technology transfer be expected to succeed, not just hoped for on a blue moon or wishing well/prayer, etc?
It better take some time and deliver results or two things will ensue? First, the IAF will get its planes later than expected and ...
possibly not up to par quality wise but more importantly, second the TOT will yield limited results? And considering that if the deal
is now over 20 billion $ then we are talking about 10$ billion investments in Indian aero-mil tech industry? Doesn't securing a proper
contract seem worthwhile to insure that the money and knowledge get in V hands in the end?

And also, let us keep in mind that Indian Rafales will come with adaptations from the French standard which have to be solved too!

In an ideal world, brackets would be given, i.e. what some here wrote about, 18 to 50 ready-made jets possibility depending on circumstances
or more SKD or a variable timeframe to procure a given kit or more latitude to give work to private sector firms if HAL cannot deliver, etc?
Sadly, though that would be fine by the GoI or Rafale International, you can bet most actors in such contracts ( especially HAL ) are fighting
such sliding rules adaptative solutions with all they've got to secure the loot apart from performance mishaps instead? No perfect world there!

My bet is the good news are just around the corner. After all, as most of us have mentioned at some point or another, both sides have too much
to either lose or gain not to succeed? And relief sighs will be heard from Palavas-les-Flots to Nainital ( well for mili stuff maybe more Dehradun )!

Fingers crossed and spirits up, good day all, Tay.

 

[sancho]

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):

Dassault boss wants to sign before elections in India

Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation make every effort to sign the Rafale contract in India before next spring.
[...] "With our Indian partners, whether the Ministry of Defence or industrial, we do the necessary to finalize the contract before the elections," said Eric Trappier on BFM/TV. "Then it will be up to the Indian government to decide whether to sign it before the elections or not to make an election issue and sign it later," he said.
[...]
France also hopes to sell Rafale to Qatar , faster than in other countries that have expressed interest in this multi-role aircraft such as Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates and Brazil.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...-Rafale-News&p=6908949&viewfull=1#post6908949

http://www.challenges.fr/entreprise...er-le-rafale-avant-les-elections-en-inde.html

 

[IND151]

Russia open to arming Indian Rafale | idrw.org

 

[he-man]

this deal is a disaster for india.............i don't care what ppl say but its unaffordable for us considering the huge costs of above 20 billion as the above interview mentions.

especially for a 4.5 gen fighter this cost is insane.
1)puny and small aesa radar due to small nose

2)rejected everywhere due to cost

3)cannot fly long without drop tanks(yes it matters)

4)no ability to supercruise(yes it can at mach 1.2 but thats not very good is it)

cost=above 100 million per unit!!!

are we insane to buy this

answer=yes we are,,,,,just like we paid 40 million per plane for mirage 2000 upgrade

possibility---------we have taken kickbacks from rafale

 

[Storm Force]

For wat is a STOP GAP MMRCA until PAK FA comes its a hidious amount of cost.

We should spend the time and money on more mirage2000-5 ,,, LCA TEJAS MK2 & future work on FGFA

 

[Taygibay]

It seems both of the above posters don't dabble in reality all that much?

Rafale was not rejected everywhere on account of cost. That is an oversimplification that hints to a lack of knowledge in military procurements. In many instances, it came out of evaluations first and was not picked ( which is different from rejected BTW ) for political reasons i.e. nations infeudated to the US or getting funds for military purchases directly from them. In one, it was picked but the process later faltered i.e. Brazil. In at least one, it was chosen only to see the stupidity of the French government negotiation team lose it all by trying to link the deal to other contracts i.e. Morocco. And so on?
On technical points also, kid's stuff is the norm. Yes the Rafale nose is smaller due to design but it does not make the capacities of the RBE2 AESA "puny" as a result ( est. 220km for 1 to 3 SqM RCS )? The same goes for the supercruise! Or, said otherwise, since the IAF selected it after a rigorous evaluation recognized globally as one of the 2 acceptable birds in a great field of competitors, if your arguments are that it is not good enough, He-man, shouldn't you be venting your rage on an Indian forum or writing directly to your armed forces and MoD to chastise their stupidity? Hum?

I can see many reasons for some Indians to be unhappy with the present situation.
Delays in the procurement MRCA to MMRCA to dragging on contract negos? All of which are India's fault?
Cost which is a shared blame affair but still below many other choices including Typhoon or Dassault would not have emerged as L1?
As for TEJAS and FGFA, both are now suffering set-backs and/or delays and don't bring any promise of timed deliveries over MMRCA at present?

Which brings us to the most neglected point in the whole affair : ToT. GoI chose to try to "kill 2 birds with one stone" here, not MiG/SAAB/Dassault, Boeing, etc!
Had procurement been deemed an uber priority, the plant at Mérignac would be churning out IAF Rafales as we speak? By adding the ToT requirement to an urgent acquisition process, GoI created the nightmare!
The counterpart of this is that it plays on price which virtually everyone forgets. If the monetary envelope of the deal is really at say 25B $ or Euros, 12.5 of those are coming back to India in capability development or plants? So that the real cost is half of what is bandied on fora?

Major facepalm to have forgotten that, huh? And if you think that this will not benefit the local industry, please remember how successful and on time and in budget either LCA or Kaveri are?
Major facepalm once again to have forgotten that, huh?

Come on guys! Think before you post and rant? YES, fully agreed, this is taking too long and costs a lot!
The rest of what you contend though is as the Bard said : So much ado about nothing!

Good day all, Tay.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It seems both of the above posters don't dabble in reality all that much?

This is true unfortunalty for all us members who actually try and stick to a sane line of reasoning on PDF!

 

[SR-91]

this deal is a disaster for india.............i don't care what ppl say but its unaffordable for us considering the huge costs of above 20 billion as the above interview mentions.

especially for a 4.5 gen fighter this cost is insane.
1)puny and small aesa radar due to small nose

2)rejected everywhere due to cost

3)cannot fly long without drop tanks(yes it matters)

4)no ability to supercruise(yes it can at mach 1.2 but thats not very good is it)

cost=above 100 million per unit!!!

are we insane to buy this

answer=yes we are,,,,,just like we paid 40 million per plane for mirage 2000 upgrade

possibility---------we have taken kickbacks from rafale

Bro, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!

French tech is one of the best.

 

[Dash]

this deal is a disaster for india.............i don't care what ppl say but its unaffordable for us considering the huge costs of above 20 billion as the above interview mentions.

especially for a 4.5 gen fighter this cost is insane.
1)puny and small aesa radar due to small nose

2)rejected everywhere due to cost

3)cannot fly long without drop tanks(yes it matters)

4)no ability to supercruise(yes it can at mach 1.2 but thats not very good is it)

cost=above 100 million per unit!!!

are we insane to buy this

answer=yes we are,,,,,just like we paid 40 million per plane for mirage 2000 upgrade

possibility---------we have taken kickbacks from rafale

Do we have any dislike button?...buddy, why by Arbus a300 MRTT when you have IL76?...

 

[he-man]

Do we have any dislike button?...buddy, why by Arbus a300 MRTT when you have IL76?...

il-76 is pretty old but russian is going for il-76 mbdmk2 something,,,pls check
but yes considering our defence budget we should stick to relatively cheaper stuff,no doubt

 

[Dash]

il-76 is pretty old but russian is going for il-76 mbdmk2 something,,,pls check
but yes considering our defence budget we should stick to relatively cheaper stuff,no doubt

Cheaper stuff may not be the right way to go. Remember whatever is cheaper is not cheaper in long run....+ we are not biying planes for IAF only, we are also buying for our industry and that doesn't come cheap..

Take the example of Boeing setting up a high altitude flight testing facility for offset terms for P8I deal, do you think we could have achived this Illushin? or Sukhoi?

 

[Abingdonboy]

il-76 is pretty old but russian is going for il-76 mbdmk2 something,,,pls check
but yes considering our defence budget we should stick to relatively cheaper stuff,no doubt

India is beyond this stage buddy. Cheap is not always cheerful. Look into life cycle costs. I've literally repeated this to you countless times now- over their life spans Russian equipment is FAR more costly to maintain than Western equipment.


Look at the tanker deal, when life cycle costs were factored in the A330 MRTT won BOTH TIMES.

 

[he-man]

India is beyond this stage buddy. Cheap is not always cheerful. Look into life cycle costs. I've literally repeated this to you countless times now- over their life spans Russian equipment is FAR more costly to maintain than Western equipment.


Look at the tanker deal, when life cycle costs were factored in the A330 MRTT won BOTH TIMES.

as i said il-76 is old and not worthy
i am only saying we must do jv and bring down the costs further

 

[sancho]

Latest Rafale F3+ with AESA, DDM NG, FSO-IT, GaN AESA jammers...