Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Just Yash]

it's not at all off topic...

SU-35 is just SU-30MKI....

so the point remain , why IAF need to buy another twine engine inplace of just adding more MKIs....

YA... WITHOUT CANARD, REDUCED RADAR CROSS SECTION, HIGH POWER ENGINE, MORE POWERFUL RADAR AND BATTER AVIONICS.

 

[kingdurgaking]

No plain logic! The only fighter that needs higher thrust, or don't have at least a new version of the engine is the F18SH, so when IAF refuse a last minute offer of a higher thrust engine, by logic it can only come from Boeing and GE!

so you mean to say Boeing didnt propose EPE in the initial bid? if you go by this? do you have any source to back this?... IAF hasnt named any one's name saying last minute offer... we are just under speculation.. how do you know dassault performed well?? i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also

 

[SpArK]

so you mean to say Boeing didnt propose EPE in the initial bid? if you go by this? do you have any source to back this?... IAF hasnt named any one's name saying last minute offer... we are just under speculation.. how do you know dassault performed well?? i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also

They offered.. we said no offer other than the one trialed.. so its indeed Hornet the MoD was talking about.

 

[angeldemon_007]

it's not at all off topic...

SU-35 is just SU-30MKI....

so the point remain , why IAF need to buy another twine engine inplace of just adding more MKIs....

Its because MKI is a air-superiority fighter and cannot do the job as well like that of dogfight....Its just like US have F15 for the work which Su30mki does for IAF and f16,f18 for the job which mirage, mig29 etc. does....but here in case of MMRCA IAF is looking for a perfect fighter which can do all the jobs in other words multi-role and thats why every company is offering a newer version of fighters as present fighters cannot meet the IAF's requirement....

i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also

According to me, whether or not dassault cheated, rafale is still the best choice.....f18 engine is also not that impressive...but this new engine adds extra thrust....and hence its good....as far as Rafale is concerned French already offered to fit Rafale with our K-10 Kaveri (90kn each)...Not to mention rafale is highly developed and has truly the multi role features and can easily get us technologies...also we won't have to spend more in infrastructure and training as IAF is already operating mirage 2k...
As far as US is concerned, i can't believe you are blaming France instead of US which has been playing foul games in all the competition at-least in the past 5-6 years...beating rafale by all whatever means possible....
F18 international roadmap plan is good but we are not getting that in mmrca, we are getting a promise or might even a signed agreement to be the part of international roadmap, which only means that its upgrade is ensure but lets face it the mid-life upgrade is far in the future (10-15 years later)....so isn't it better that we purchase the most advanced plane right now because by the end of the decade iaf will start operating 5th gen fighters...
Its just like saying that US is offering us f35 but actually US is offering us f16 and if we select it, we will be eligible to purchase f35....

 

[kingdurgaking]

According to me, whether or not dassault cheated, rafale is still the best choice.....f18 engine is also not that impressive...but this new engine adds extra thrust....and hence its good....as far as Rafale is concerned French already offered to fit Rafale with our K-10 Kaveri (90kn each)...Not to mention rafale is highly developed and has truly the multi role features and can easily get us technologies...also we won't have to spend more in infrastructure and training as IAF is already operating mirage 2k...
As far as US is concerned, i can't believe you are blaming France instead of US which has been playing foul games in all the competition at-least in the past 5-6 years...beating rafale by all whatever means possible....
F18 international roadmap plan is good but we are not getting that in mmrca, we are getting a promise or might even a signed agreement to be the part of international roadmap, which only means that its upgrade is ensure but lets face it the mid-life upgrade is far in the future (10-15 years later)....so isn't it better that we purchase the most advanced plane right now because by the end of the decade iaf will start operating 5th gen fighters...
Its just like saying that US is offering us f35 but actually US is offering us f16 and if we select it, we will be eligible to purchase f35....

No one is arguing which is best.. Rafale ,EFT -T3 , F-18 with EPE , F-16 B-70 everything is best.. so nothing is worst.. as per the report EPE is provided in the orginal bid... there is no place of argument that it is Boeing.. but only dassault... read the report properly

No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials,

It clearly says as quoted in bid ... and comparing the performance in trails.. it doesnt says trails should have the same what is quoted in bid..


same applies to Spark response too

 

[kingdurgaking]

it's not at all off topic...

SU-35 is just SU-30MKI....

so the point remain , why IAF need to buy another twine engine inplace of just adding more MKIs....

SU-35BM is not MKI.. but advanced version.. only SU-35 is clone of MKI.. SU-35BM came from Su-37

 

[sancho]

Off topic.. but good information check this out

That's just Russian media hoping that the Su 35 can be back in the race again, but Brazilian officials denied that already. The tender is postponed till next year, but only the 3 shortlisted fighters are under concideration.

so you mean to say Boeing didnt propose EPE in the initial bid? if you go by this? do you have any source to back this?... IAF hasnt named any one's name saying last minute offer... we are just under speculation.. how do you know dassault performed well?? i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also

I meant that Boeing offered it as an option at the begining, but by the fact that it's not available yet, IAF did not accepted it for the initial Boeing bid in MMRCA.
UAE wants the Rafale to carry higher strike loads, that's why they want more thrust (up to 3 x 2000lb PGMs, or Scalp missiles, more AAMs and possibly CFTs), because the US denies standoff weapons for the F16 B60 and the integration of Scalp / Black Shaheen missiles. That's why they want more thrust for such heavy strike roles, aimed on Iran of course. On the other side, the Rafale with it's normal engine showed impressive dog fighting abilities in the UAE and the hot conditions, against F22s! How should that be possible if it would be underpowered?
Not to mention that is proved the same against EF, Gripen and nearly all teen series fighters. I hoped so much that we get first some reports about Rafale Ms vs Mig 29Ks in dogfights during Varuna exercise, but sadly IN missed the chance.
However, the F3+ is offered with a new engine and we even have the option to integrate Kaveri - Snecma engine if we want and what I highly recommend if Rafale is chosen, because it offers not only more thrust, but more independence with a higher indigenous content. So for Rafale more thrust is a bonus, for F18SH it is crucial to fulfill IAF requirements!

 

[kingdurgaking]

I meant that Boeing offered it as an option at the begining, but by the fact that it's not available yet, IAF did not accepted it for the initial Boeing bid in MMRCA.

I am missing something.. how can IAF reject something offered in the bid...if so Boeing didnt change the bid which IAF cried for.. which means it is some other manufacture... As for logic.. EPE core is tested.. and all the modern technical challenges are tested with EDE.. it is just a matter of assembling.. which GE is confident of delivering with E/F block 2...

so Boeing is not the culprit... so the other who came in to limelight is Dassault .... just kidding... Since we are not clear and we cant go by any logic..
I am confident that Boeing didnt ... so it is the others who did it... But Boeing didnt deliver them in the trails for sure.. which means it cant be rejected..As of report IAF mostly validates it with the bid configuration and compares it with the performance in the trails.. It didnt expect the product off the shelf.. if it is so it would have kissed good bye to 3 of them before the trails.. as they are in paper only...

 

[sancho]

I am missing something.. how can IAF reject something offered in the bid...if so Boeing didnt change the bid which IAF cried for.. which means it is some other manufacture... As for logic.. EPE core is tested.. and all the modern technical challenges are tested with EDE.. it is just a matter of assembling.. which GE is confident of delivering with E/F block 2...

Because it is only an option and not available yet, they just refused to take the options, what's so strange about it?
Not really, they have only demo versions of the engines for ground tests, no version for enhanced flight tests, the same is the case with M88-3, or EJ 230 with 3D TVC, that are on offer as options as well.

and we cant go by any logic.. .

We can, but you deny the logic, that's the problem!

 

[kingdurgaking]

Because it is only an option and not available yet, they just refused to take the options, what's so strange about it?
Not really, they have only demo versions of the engines for ground tests, no version for enhanced flight tests, the same is the case with M88-3, or EJ 230 with 3D TVC, that are on offer as options as well.

so you mean to say it is given only as option not as configuration.. do you have any source to back... because lot of source says it is a configuration.. how can a customer deny a configuration.. though he can drop the option..

We can, but you deny the logic, that's the problem!

there is no logic in me denying .. if you can show me a source... otherwise i can say 1=2 ... just by doing some damn logic.. without a base.... we dont know what has happened in trails ... how it is evaluated.. everything is tight lipped and under wraps.... we are just getting a news every week .. this is leading and that is leading.. thats it and we cant assume all the sources are true.. just take the engine competition..

 

[dbc]

so you mean to say Boeing didnt propose EPE in the initial bid? if you go by this? do you have any source to back this?... IAF hasnt named any one's name saying last minute offer... we are just under speculation.. how do you know dassault performed well?? i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also

That is right we heard from the UAE that the Rafale was under powered, General Alain Silvy confirmed this in an interview. A new more reliable engine M88 4E is expected in 2012, we know the M88 suffers from reliability issues, as a matter of fact the M88 experienced technical issues at AeroIndia 2011 it is more than possible the French engine has not impressed the IAF and the French are now offering a new variant of the M88.

The EPE has been funded by GE and the US government and has been under development and testing for the last 10 years. 17 EPE prototypes have been built by GE, there are more EPE prototypes in existence than Rafale AESA radar it is ridiculous to claim that the EPE is just a 'demo'. If the IAF was willing to evaluate prototype gear from other vendors then why is impossible for them to have evaluated a F/A 18 F with some of the 17 EPE prototypes already built.

http://www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf/Aero_India_Super_Hornet_Briefing.pdf

 

[SpArK]

Sigonella Air Base in Sicily i... air campaign in Libya​

 

[SpArK]

Will Russia’s MiG abandon the Indian race?​

By Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military columnist

Moscow. The Indian tender for 126 MMRCAs (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to replace its ageing MiGs was announced long ago, but only now is the real intrigue unfolding. Competition between two main rivals - the United States’ F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Russia’s MiG-35 has been stiff.

The intrigue heightened after Russia announced its MiG-35 would not be on display at an air show in Bangalore. Many experts took the absence of a “real live” MiG as a sign that Russia was pulling out of the race.

Leading entries compared

The Russian and U.S. fighters each have their own strengths. The Super Hornet’s design maturity is indeed impressive. It has been in serial production for over 10 years and carries an active phased-array radar (APAR), or what is generally known as the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) combat radar, which is also in serial production. The United States is also in a position to start manufacturing the aircraft for an Indian order at short notice.

(Notably however, AESA is THE key requirement for the Indian tender. At present, this technology features only on three aircraft in the world, all of them US, Lockheed Martin’s F 22 Raptor and F 16 Block 60 with UAE, and Boeing’s F/A 18 E/F Super Hornet or its electronic warfare version EA 18G Growler).

The MiG-35’s advantages include India’s experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country, as well as Russia’s readiness to share production technology with India. The MiG-35’s main shortcoming is its APAR: it is still in development and this is set to continue for a year or two. Also, despite its MiG-29 origins, the MiG-35 still needs refining before it can go into serial production.


Fundamentally, the only thing the MiG-35 shares with the previous MiG-29 family is its appearance. Its equipment and facilities have undergone a radical overhaul. The aircraft is now capable of using the very latest air-to-surface munitions, making it a multi-role fighter, unlike the MiG-29, which is considered an air-supremacy fighter.

The cockpit, in line with the current fashion, is equipped with multifunctional liquid-crystal display screens, while the HOTAS (hands on throttle-and-stick) system allows the pilot to manage all the weapons systems without taking their hands off the aircraft and engine controls.


Vectored-thrust engines make the plane much more maneuverable, increasing its chances of winning in close combat and avoiding longrange missile fire.

The fact that a two-seat version - the MiG-35D - is available, with the same kind of avionics as the singleseater, means that groups consisting of one- and two-seater aircraft can be formed, which are capable of carrying out highly complicated missions. In such formations the two-seaters become command planes, coordinating the moves of a flight or squadron.



Boeing meanwhile ...


Unlike Russia, which decided not to put its MiG-35 on display in Bangalore, the United States has stepped up its activity and unveiled the latest version of the F/A-18, or the Silent Hornet, upscaled with stealth technology.

These warplanes are kitted out with conformal fuel tanks, enhanced performance engines, spherical missile laser warning (SM/LW), enclosed weapons pads and next generation cockpits complete with internal infrared search and tracking systems


The aircraft on display at the show is the first to be developed as part of the International Super Hornet Roadmap program, which Boeing announced at the Farnborough air show last year. The fighter is being touted as a new generation in the Super Hornet family, which will feature improved combat survivability, situational awareness and performance for customers.

Boeing’s vice president Vivek Lall said that if India signs a contract with Boeing under the MMRCA tender it will be able to obtain this technology. “We are creating a platform which will be combat worthy for the next 30 or 40 years,” he said.


This announcement is unprecedented for an American company - until now only the United States’ closest allies have been granted full access to this kind of technology. All the others had to make do with what they were sold.


Tender results are expected to be announced this summer. They are particularly important for the MiG: should the MiG-35 fail to get an export order, Sukhoi aircraft will be left in a position of unassailable dominance on Russia’s combat aviation market.


Despite the unquestioned potential of Sukhoi platforms and their proven quality, such a monopoly is unlikely to be helpful.

..:: India Strategic ::.. Air Force: Will Russia’s MiG abandon the Indian race?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Will Russia’s MiG abandon the Indian race?​

By Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military columnist

Moscow. The Indian tender for 126 MMRCAs (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to replace its ageing MiGs was announced long ago, but only now is the real intrigue unfolding. Competition between two main rivals - the United States’ F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Russia’s MiG-35 has been stiff.

The intrigue heightened after Russia announced its MiG-35 would not be on display at an air show in Bangalore. Many experts took the absence of a “real live” MiG as a sign that Russia was pulling out of the race.

Leading entries compared

The Russian and U.S. fighters each have their own strengths. The Super Hornet’s design maturity is indeed impressive. It has been in serial production for over 10 years and carries an active phased-array radar (APAR), or what is generally known as the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) combat radar, which is also in serial production. The United States is also in a position to start manufacturing the aircraft for an Indian order at short notice.

(Notably however, AESA is THE key requirement for the Indian tender. At present, this technology features only on three aircraft in the world, all of them US, Lockheed Martin’s F 22 Raptor and F 16 Block 60 with UAE, and Boeing’s F/A 18 E/F Super Hornet or its electronic warfare version EA 18G Growler).

The MiG-35’s advantages include India’s experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country, as well as Russia’s readiness to share production technology with India. The MiG-35’s main shortcoming is its APAR: it is still in development and this is set to continue for a year or two. Also, despite its MiG-29 origins, the MiG-35 still needs refining before it can go into serial production.


Fundamentally, the only thing the MiG-35 shares with the previous MiG-29 family is its appearance. Its equipment and facilities have undergone a radical overhaul. The aircraft is now capable of using the very latest air-to-surface munitions, making it a multi-role fighter, unlike the MiG-29, which is considered an air-supremacy fighter.

The cockpit, in line with the current fashion, is equipped with multifunctional liquid-crystal display screens, while the HOTAS (hands on throttle-and-stick) system allows the pilot to manage all the weapons systems without taking their hands off the aircraft and engine controls.


Vectored-thrust engines make the plane much more maneuverable, increasing its chances of winning in close combat and avoiding longrange missile fire.

The fact that a two-seat version - the MiG-35D - is available, with the same kind of avionics as the singleseater, means that groups consisting of one- and two-seater aircraft can be formed, which are capable of carrying out highly complicated missions. In such formations the two-seaters become command planes, coordinating the moves of a flight or squadron.



Boeing meanwhile ...


Unlike Russia, which decided not to put its MiG-35 on display in Bangalore, the United States has stepped up its activity and unveiled the latest version of the F/A-18, or the Silent Hornet, upscaled with stealth technology.

These warplanes are kitted out with conformal fuel tanks, enhanced performance engines, spherical missile laser warning (SM/LW), enclosed weapons pads and next generation cockpits complete with internal infrared search and tracking systems


The aircraft on display at the show is the first to be developed as part of the International Super Hornet Roadmap program, which Boeing announced at the Farnborough air show last year. The fighter is being touted as a new generation in the Super Hornet family, which will feature improved combat survivability, situational awareness and performance for customers.

Boeing’s vice president Vivek Lall said that if India signs a contract with Boeing under the MMRCA tender it will be able to obtain this technology. “We are creating a platform which will be combat worthy for the next 30 or 40 years,” he said.


This announcement is unprecedented for an American company - until now only the United States’ closest allies have been granted full access to this kind of technology. All the others had to make do with what they were sold.


Tender results are expected to be announced this summer. They are particularly important for the MiG: should the MiG-35 fail to get an export order, Sukhoi aircraft will be left in a position of unassailable dominance on Russia’s combat aviation market.


Despite the unquestioned potential of Sukhoi platforms and their proven quality, such a monopoly is unlikely to be helpful.

..:: India Strategic ::.. Air Force: Will Russia’s MiG abandon the Indian race?

Due to the apparent Russian origin of this article it seems to over play the Mig 35's chances and capabilities. The fact is the Mig 35 was/is always the dark horse and outside player. The writer seems to see the MMRCA as a two horse race (maybe looking through the world still through the cold war view- Russia VS USA) but in fact the EFT and Rafele have much better chances than the Mig. It seems that instead of questioning whether the Mig 35 will pull out, the article is trying to rejuvenate its chances!

 

[luckyyy]

Fundamentally, the only thing the MiG-35 shares with the previous MiG-29 family is its appearance. Its equipment and facilities have undergone a radical overhaul.

that's the main point !!

The MiG-35’s advantages include India’s experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country,
also lets not over look the automation proccess of menufecturing US planes , which going to cost a hell to HAL to bought all those automatic machines from US..