What's new

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Just an offtopic question. Have u come across in any forums or anywhere else , any article regarding the Dakshin prahar exercise happened in my city along the dates of Aero India.. I havent found anything on it which is worthy of reading...

Sorry buddy, missed you post yesterday. No didn't heared of it, TVM is mainly army based right? I just was surprised that the PM meet Brahmos officials in that time:

Indian Defense News: Manmohan commends BrahMos team
 
Mr Andrew Gallagher, CEO-MD of BAE Systems India, says India should avoid American and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon to reap both capability and strategic benefits. Excerpts from an interview.
The Typhoon is the ‘youngest’ aircraft in the MMRCA competition. The flip side is that it’s still a work-in-progress…
If you buy an F-16, you know what you are getting — a 1970’s product. If you go for the Typhoon, it’s been in service for six years with the Eurofighter air forces, you are getting the best platform available today, and the opportunity to upgrade it.
What do we gain in politico-strategic terms from buying European?
The Typhoon purchase will promote a couple of things. One, India’s stated ambition to develop an indigenous defence capability, in particular in this area because the Eurofighter consortium, with the full support of the governments of Germany, UK, Italy and Spain, will deliver the technology transfer commitments and the know-how, not just the source code and the paperwork. We won’t find ourselves caught up in a bureaucratic nightmare, which perhaps will happen in the case of another country, in terms of the ability to transfer technology, which will allow India a degree of sovereignty which it would not otherwise have.
With the US, you are still in CISMOA discussions, and other technology cooperation discussions that are yet to be resolved. Moreover, India has already bought the P-8I, the C-130J, it’s buying the C-17, how many more deals do the Americans want? The law of diminishing returns begins to kick in somewhere. For us, India will be buying 126 Typhoons. Money talks. India will be a key partner going forward and it will develop the aircraft according to its own needs.
Eurofighter nations build military capability in the belief that they will go to war only in coalitions, not alone. Is there a conceptual issue here with regard to the Typhoon, because India has to fight its wars alone?
What we will do is to provide India the capability to develop the aircraft to its own requirements. So, if that means that India thinks it is going to go to war on its own with its neighbours or other nations, under our obligations in the deal, we will work with India to develop the aircraft in the way that it needs. And we will also ensure that if there’s any degree of interdependence, India will have access to the support and capability that it needs to ensure its legitimate national security interests, whatever they are.
Is there US technology in the Typhoon, and will it be difficult getting unrestricted access to it?
It’s not impossible on occasion. But, in principle, if India buys the Typhoon, the relationship with India is such that whilst there may be a problem from time to time, any technology transfer which requires US approvals will come through.
I mean, BAE Systems has 45,000 employees in America, we are the fifth biggest supplier to the Pentagon. So, the US absolutely knows where its interest lies, and I have no doubt whatsoever, provided we behave responsibly, the US will step up and do the right thing.

With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-20
 
Eurofighter nations build military capability in the belief that they will go to war only in coalitions, not alone. Is there a conceptual issue here with regard to the Typhoon, because India has to fight its wars alone?
Many things came to my mind after reading this question and before reading the answer. :)

Is there US technology in the Typhoon, and will it be difficult getting unrestricted access to it?
It’s not impossible on occasion. But, in principle, if India buys the Typhoon, the relationship with India is such that whilst there may be a problem from time to time, any technology transfer which requires US approvals will come through.
I mean, BAE Systems has 45,000 employees in America, we are the fifth biggest supplier to the Pentagon. So, the US absolutely knows where its interest lies, and I have no doubt whatsoever, provided we behave responsibly, the US will step up and do the right thing.
This is alarming...

I vote Rafale first, typhoon second. Lets see what happens...
 
The Big Deal nears the finish | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-20

Asked about China’s latest wonder, a stealth fighter called the J-20 that the US alleges was built by ‘stealth’ practices, Air Chief P.V. Naik shot back recently, “Is reverse engineering ethical or is it an illegitimate entry through the backdoor?”
It was an unusual outburst of helplessness for a military man who, more than anyone else, knows well that it does not matter how a country obtains its military capability, but only that it possesses it. As Deng Xiaoping once said, “It does not matter whether the cat is white or black so long as it catches mice”.
Air Chief Naik’s frustration was perhaps more at the fact that India is still some way from getting a fully capable Tejas LCA, let alone dream of a fifth-gen fighter. Perhaps the one area in which the Indian military still enjoys a lead over the Chinese military — air combat — is in danger of slipping, unless India acts quickly to refurbish its capability.
China, after all, is pouring billions into acquiring modern air superiority and multi-role fighters such as the Su-27 variants and the Su-30 MKK from Russia, building its own J-10 and JF-17 fighters in the hundreds and, worst of all, arming Pakistan too with them. Pakistan is beefing up its own F-16 fleet with new aircraft and, for the first time, American beyond visual range (BVR) missiles — the benefits of running with the hares and hunting with the hounds in the war on terror.
Meanwhile, suffering from collective obsolescence and a great many MiG aircraft crashes, the IAF’s strength is depleting. In the wake of the 1962 humiliation at China’s hands, it was estimated that the IAF would need to have 64 fighter squadrons. By the 1990s, though, squadron strength had peaked at about 42 and had begun to fall. Today, the IAF is left with anywhere between 29 to 34 squadrons, against a sanctioned 39.5. The IAF desperately wants to touch 45 squadrons by 2020.
The importance of the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) — which, per the armed forces’ Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan will go up all the way up to 260 fighters — cannot be overstated.
It's a big deal — in fact, the biggest defence import deal for India so far, and the biggest contract up for grabs for the world’s military equipment giants. It’s also the most complicated military buy decision that the IAF and the political leadership face. For starters, just the technical and field evaluations had over 600 test points for each aircraft. Yet, if a decision is not made in the next few months, it could be a very big disaster for the IAF’s short to medium-term warfare capability.
To be sure, the MMRCA procurement process has reached an advanced stage. The IAF has given the ministry of defence its report on the technical and field trials of the six aircraft in contention, reportedly without picking a favourite or even a shortlist — Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN, Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F, the Eurofighter (UK-Germany-Italy-Spain) Typhoon, the French Dassault Rafale, the Swedish Gripen IN and the Russian MiG-35 are vying for the contract — leaving that task to the MoD bureaucracy.
An MoD Technical Oversight Committee is currently looking at the ‘offset’proposals — a requirement that the winning contractor source a certain amount of the value of each aircraft that India buys from Indian industry — submitted by the contenders for the deal. Simultaneously, their proposals for transfer of technology, critical for the rapid development of an Indian capability to build advanced fighters, are also being examined.
At the end of this process — expected to end in a week or two — the TOC will ‘down-select’ a few companies to go to the next stage of the bidding process. The price bids of the short-listed companies will then be opened in front of the bidders. The lowest price bidder, designated L1, will be called by a Contract Negotiation Committee to finalise the terms of the deal. Once that’s done, the defence minister, then the finance minister and finally the Cabinet committee on security will have to sign off on the contract.
At the recent Aero India show, ACM Naik said this will be done by September, but MoD officials have told this newspaper it will happen no sooner than the end of the year or early next year, if all goes well. That caveat is important.
Corruption has always been the big bugbear, but the MMRCA process has, so far, been admirably unaffected. The IAF and the MoD have, in fact, gone out of the way to ensure that the process is clean and transparent.
Trouble, however, could come from elsewhere. For one, as the air chief himself said, a losing contender could put a spoke in the wheel — such corporate sniping has forced the MoD to re-tender or even cancel procurements in the past. Or, the finance ministry could well play spoilsport, as it did with the refueling tanker deal recently.
No matter who puts the spoke in the wheel, ultimately it is the country’s security that will be put at risk unless the IAF can begin to induct the aircraft by 2015-2016. Beyond that date, the MMRCA will either have to be scrapped or the aircraft will become a costly, even unnecessary, acquisition.
Nonetheless, it’s not an easy decision to make. For starters, should India buy an aircraft to meet merely IAF's capability requirements or, when it is spending over $10 billion — potentially $25 billion — should its choice be based on obtaining critical technology and strategic benefits? Even if only the IAF's capability requirements were kept in mind, should it go for a ‘combat-proven’ fighter essentially of 1970s/80s design (f-16), but whose development potential is at an end? Or, should it go for the newest, albeit relatively unproven, fighter that has ‘potential’ for improvement for the next 40 years (Typhoon, Rafale)?
Should the IAF insist on a fighter that has a working active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar today (F-16, F/A-18) or should it take the risk of choosing one for which an AESA radar is still under development?
Should the IAF simply go for the cheapest aircraft, while keeping its resources for a future acquisition of a so-called 5th-gen fighter, the F-35? Should it scrap the MMRCA, forget the F-35 and simply buy more of the most capable fighter it already has — the Sukhoi-30 MKI? Or should it buy the most expensive, but also apparently the most capable aircraft in the race — the Typhoon — to hedge against a possible failure of its own future aircraft project?
And what should India’s political leadership look to gain from such a big contract?
In March 2005, America declared its intention to “facilitate India’s defence transformation” by not only selling fighters but also “transformative systems” that would “help India become a major world power in the 21st Century”. Should India take the promise at face value and buy an American fighter, to possibly build an alliance against China?
Or, should India buy the Eurofighter Typhoon, and give the European defence industry a fillip in an attempt to preserve our preferred multi-polar world order? Should we buy the French Rafale because France, like India, likes to keep its independent flag flying and is ready to give us “100 per cent” technology?
In the end, it is very likely that even within the tight two-stage bidding process, India’s bureaucracy and political leadership will find creative ways to ensure that political and strategic considerations and India’s need for technology decide the final choice of aircraft.

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
Company: Boeing

* Proven aircraft with potential for future development. Meets AESA radar requirement.
* India has chosen the GE F-414 engine for Tejas Mk 2. F-18 will mean a common engine for the two aircraft, a maintenance and support advantage.
* Is expected to come in at less than $70 million a unit.
* Excellent, but all-American weapons package.

RAFALE
Company: Dassault

* The darkhorse in the race is now apparently among the top choices.
* Comparable to the Eurofighter in most respects, and better than the F-18 in many.
* French air force has recently cleared the AESA radar to go on the fighter.
* French President Nicolas Sarkozy has apparently promised 100 per cent technology transfer.

Eurofighter Typhoon
Company: Eurofighter GmbH

* Apparently the most capable aircraft in the competition on a number of parameters.
* The ‘youngest’ aircraft in the competition, with potential for future development.
* Does not have a working AESA radar on the aircraft as on today. But one is under development.:argh:
* Biggest attraction: Eurofighter countries demand no agreements; won’t impinge on Indian sovereignty.

F-16IN Super Viper
Company: Lockheed Martin

* Perhaps the most-proven and combat-optimised fighter among the contenders, it has AESA radar, a key IAF requirement.
* Is expected to come at $60 million a unit.
* Has been offered with removable Conformal Fuel Tanks. Among the most manouvreable air-to-air fighters without CFT.
* Excellent, but has an all-American weapons.

No mention of Gripen and MIG-35, is it intentional or accidental?
 
Gripen NG will not be ready in time for the MMRCA. So I won't be surprised if its not shortlisted.
 
The only US weapon that is intended to be integrated in future is JDAM, because the partner countries opted for that weapons, but neither JSOW, nor Maverick will will be, which just once again shows how pointless your speculations are.

Speculation!? Did you miss the large image in my previous post clearly showing both Maverick and JSOW - the second and fourth weapon from the left? That and the below image is taken from page 4 of the EuroFighter brochure under the words "One Aircraft,Any Mission".

You better call the EuroFighter consortia and accuse them of "speculating" too!


http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/misc/WFOEnglishWEB.pdf


weaponfoldout.jpg


- in passive mode (IRST, SPECTRA, data links) it don't emit signals, which makes it harder to detect

:hitwall: for heavens sake unless the Rafale has a very...very...very...veeeeeeery long cable for data linking the aircraft with the missile it just launched it is impossible to data link and transmit mid course guidance without emitting signals. Its like saying you can make and receive phone calls from a cell phone without transmitting.

The rest of your post is more useless Rafale propaganda, the EuroFighter Typhoon can do anything the Rafale can do period (except land on a boat) .
 
Speculation!? Did you miss the large image in my previous post clearly showing both Maverick and JSOW - the second and fourth weapon from the left? That and the below image is taken from page 4 of the EuroFighter brochure under the words "One Aircraft,Any Mission".

Just need to quote the part of my post that you left out:

Btw, it doesn't matter what weapons were on offer, or planned for EF at the begining of the development, only what weapons are, or will be integrated. Those pics and links that you post to distract doesn't mean anything, because 90% of those weapons, or even pods are and will not be available, especially not the US weapons!

Here are the weapons for EF (except of AASM), that were shown during Aero India, again 90% of them not available yet, but look at how many of them are US origin! Where are your JSOW, or Maverick?:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-46.html#post1490547


The rest of your post is more useless Rafale propaganda, the EuroFighter Typhoon can do anything the Rafale can do period (except land on a boat) .

Or you are simply unable to counter facts and the truth, with your speculations, wouldn't be the first time! :disagree:
 
Here are the weapons for EF (except of AASM), that were shown during Aero India, again 90% of them not available yet, but look at how many of them are US origin! Where are your JSOW, or Maverick?:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-46.html#post1490547

So what if it wasn't shown at Aero India? The F-22 wasn't shown at Aero India either - does that mean the Raptor does not exist?
Both Raytheon and EuroFighter brochure show JSOW and Maverick as available weapons for the EuroFighter, stop spreading lies about the EuroFighter. :coffee:

Please don't forget to tell us how Rafale data links without transmitting.
 
The MMRCA Pecking Order Poll

Go to the site and vote


By shiv aroor


In the next three weeks, the Indian medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition will move into a decisive phase -- price negotiations.

ything that's been reported over the last 10 days.

Vote below:LINK

Could This Be The MMRCA Ranking? :)


By Shiv Aroor

1111.JPG


These are the poll results of yet another super-unempirical, unscientific poll that I put up here a few days ago.

Among the six options was one that reflected in precise terms a ranking that was conveyed to select journalists at Aero India by Indian Air Force officers, who of course asked not be named.

They claimed that this one ranking was the one that concluded the field evaluation trial report submitted to the MoD. With the surfeit of hearsay we've had so far, I've decided not to explicitly put out that ranking until it's official or can be attributed to someone in the IAF/government.


Obviously, the options above may not be real at all until we know something for sure. That said, the poll I conducted had no real intention. All I really wanted to do is put that unofficial ranking out there, without putting it out there. Obviously, if I tell you guys how well/badly you polled, that would be giving it away. Either way, it won't be long before we know something substantial. So let's wait.
 
With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act:haha::haha:

Mr Andrew Gallagher, CEO-MD of BAE Systems India, says India should avoid American and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon to reap both capability and strategic benefits. Excerpts from an interview.

The Typhoon is the ‘youngest’ aircraft in the MMRCA competition. The flip side is that it’s still a work-in-progress…

If you buy an F-16, you know what you are getting — a 1970’s product. :agree: If you go for the Typhoon, it’s been in service for six years with the Eurofighter air forces, you are getting the best platform available today, and the opportunity to upgrade it.

What do we gain in politico-strategic terms from buying European?

The Typhoon purchase will promote a couple of things. One, India’s stated ambition to develop an indigenous defence capability, in particular in this area because the Eurofighter consortium, with the full support of the governments of Germany, UK, Italy and Spain, will deliver the technology transfer commitments and the know-how, not just the source code and the paperwork.

We won’t find ourselves caught up in a bureaucratic nightmare, which perhaps will happen in the case of another country, in terms of the ability to transfer technology, which will allow India a degree of sovereignty which it would not otherwise have.


With the US, you are still in CISMOA discussions, and other technology cooperation discussions that are yet to be resolved. Moreover, India has already bought the P-8I, the C-130J, it’s buying the C-17, how many more deals do the Americans want? The law of diminishing returns begins to kick in somewhere. For us, India will be buying 126 Typhoons. Money talks. India will be a key partner going forward and it will develop the aircraft according to its own needs.


Eurofighter nations build military capability in the belief that they will go to war only in coalitions, not alone. Is there a conceptual issue here with regard to the Typhoon, because India has to fight its wars alone?

What we will do is to provide India the capability to develop the aircraft to its own requirements. So, if that means that India thinks it is going to go to war on its own with its neighbours or other nations, under our obligations in the deal, we will work with India to develop the aircraft in the way that it needs. And we will also ensure that if there’s any degree of interdependence, India will have access to the support and capability that it needs to ensure its legitimate national security interests, whatever they are.

Is there US technology in the Typhoon, and will it be difficult getting unrestricted access to it?

It’s not impossible on occasion. But, in principle, if India buys the Typhoon, the relationship with India is such that whilst there may be a problem from time to time, any technology transfer which requires US approvals will come through.

I mean, BAE Systems has 45,000 employees in America, we are the fifth biggest supplier to the Pentagon. So, the US absolutely knows where its interest lies, and I have no doubt whatsoever, provided we behave responsibly, the US will step up and do the right thing.

With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-20
 
In passive mode, IRST, MICA seekers, SPECTRA, DDM, and data link what is emiting?

Data link of course , why did i mention F22 IFDL ,link22 in first place .

I don't think France has any intra flight data link apart from MIDS/Link16.
And one thing for sure MIDS is neither Passive/silent and nor it works in LPI mode .

Rafale updating a MICA via data link can easily be intercepted by the loop-hole in datalink . Until and unless France has developed some space tech to communicate and update missile without emitting .

I remember i had same discussion about SIGNIT , ELNIT , EMCON , CRYPTOANALYSIS in Exercise Garuda thread with Anathema viz MKI Vs F18
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom