Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[bhagat]

Self deleted…

 

[sancho]

you think those NDTV people know more about planes then you or me...

Can't speak for you, but I think a guy that has flown with a dozen fighters knows more about them as I do. Apart from that, there is also the Saab official that is explaining the Gripen NG, so there should be no doubt about that anymore.

as far as indian policy makers are concern they also do the same...they also study and know very well the potential power of PAF in any conflict...the point I am trying to tell is that they could easily afford to send this money for R&D and put pressure for LCA tejjas...now If i take word from any Indian member that it is 4+ gen fighter then why do u need MRCA...tejjas is late MRCA is late...this MRCA is becoming pride issue for all countries and can make indian possition very bad at the end...

Because MMRCA is not aimed on PAF, but on PLAAF!
Indian policy makers made their studies of PAF and the outcome was that they upgrade the Mirage 2000s, as well as Mig 29s, place all Mig 29s together towards Pakistans borders and replace older Mig 21s with LCA MK2s. Only a few MKI, or MMRCA squads will be placed towards Pakistan, which should tell you how they see the difference.

MMRCA has very less to do with the initial aim of replacing Mig 21, but now has the goal to add more capable fighters and get as much side advantages (ToT, industrial and political) as possible. So it's about detrance against China and improving ourself and the foreign relations.

Here comes Super Hornet with its new Goodies...

Very interesting, nice find Jha!

The mockup will be displayed ant the AERO INDIA...although the growth plan is not tied directly to Boeings F18E/F offer for Indias MMRCA requirement.

Boeing is also carful to seperate its international growth road map, from the navy's upgrade path for the F18 E/F, which it calles the flight plan.
Upgrades on offer for international customers are not in the navy's budget, but are synergistic with the flight plan, says Kory Mathews, F18 E/F programm vice president.
The international growth road map is a menu of options available individually, or in combination to increase the capability...

...The EPE is in Indias proposal to meet Indias requirement for transonic acceleration in the air interception role, because the wing is designed for low carrier langing speed...

...There is a lot of interest says Mathews, who holds out the potential to co-develop some elements with international partners.

To sum it up, on the one side we have options that international customers can have in addition to the normal F18SH capabilities, in case they don't fit to their requirements. These options are not in the budget of the USNs upgrade plan, which means they must be developed separately, but on the other hand can included into the USN fighters later too, if an international customer orders them first.

In regard to MMRCA it is important to understand that these upgrades are not on all on offer for India so far, obviously because they need time to be developed and ready, which shouldn't meet the timelines. The GE414 EPE engine on the other hand is proposed for India in the MMRCA to meet the requirements in the interception role, which is a very important point!
Once because it confirms chhindits.blogspot, that there is a clear requirement of IAF in this role (they said TWR above 1 and at least 9G capable) and secondly that Boeing is not offering the engine as an additional option, but out of neccesity, which confirms the Times of India report as well, that said:

IAF is sceptical about engine, but may reconsider

The reconsideration should be about the difference that the EPE would make. So if F18SH block 2, then only with the EPE engine, which means further costs and time for the development has to be added and could be offered as a co-development.

 

[sancho]

For RAFALE Lovers..

More here:

Rafale News: Rafale weapon load

that shows the multiple role of a fighter jet. IMO it is the strongest contender.. even better than EF...

When it comes to weapon loads, the Rafale is clearly a strong contender because of the high payload, number of weapon stations and integrated weapons, but we always have to diffe between which of these configs are real, which are only possible on paper.
Most of these weapon loadouts shows the best possible situation, but in any real mission, a fighter always carries 1, or 2 fuel tanks, which occupies heavy weaponstations. Also the higher the load, the less the flight performance of the fighter, which means you will never see a single fighter with 4 cruise missiles in a strike mission.
Another important point that many people forget is the fact that not all weapons that are possible, are on offer. The US for example, often denies cruise missiles for export customers, that's why countries gets European fighters, in addition (UAE - Mirage 2000 / Rafale, alongside F16 B60, Saudi Arabia - Tornado / EF, alongside F15s, Greece - Mirage 2000 along side F16 B52) and we recently heared about the problems that could come up with Swedens foreign policy and weapon sales, during conflicts.

 

[ceejay]

AESA for the RAFALE

Rafale Thread

the last i heard, IAF was dissatisfied with AESA radar in Rafale

 

[SpArK]

the last i heard, IAF was dissatisfied with AESA radar in Rafale

sancho will help u with that one..


Right sancho?

 

[sancho]

the last i heard, IAF was dissatisfied with AESA radar in Rafale

Any sources? So far only UAE said that, but they said that about the EWS, the engines and the weapon configs as well and still wants the Rafale, because that's their normal behavior. Nothing of the shelf, everything must be better, money doesn't matter!

 

[angeldemon_007]

the last i heard, IAF was dissatisfied with AESA radar in Rafale

I am also trying to find about that aesa but could not find enough. But yeah whatever i have learnt, its not that attractive.

So if F18SH block 2, then only with the EPE engine, which means further costs and time for the development has to be added and could be offered as a co-development.

Is this such a deciding factor ??/ American firms have not good impression till yet. These companies are too big and too strong and they are able to fool us in offset on every deal.

I don't think we would get enough in TOT even we are exempt from any kind of sanctions.

Boeing is also carful to seperate its international growth road map, from the navy's upgrade path for the F18 E/F, which it calles the flight plan.

Thats a good news.

But i think Typhoon deal is better, they are offering us thrust vector capability also. Apart from this there is also EF Typhoon 2020. We could ask to be part of that, it is offered to Turkey.

 

[sancho]

I don't think we would get enough in TOT even we are exempt from any kind of sanctions.

I don't think we will get much ToT even for the normal engine, but to fund the development of an foreign engine doesn't make sense for India for sure. That makes the F18SH less likely, at least on operational capabilities, but as I always say it is the political choice in the competition.

Thats a good news.

Actually it's not, because that means, these options are not funded, which increases the costs, it's like the 3D TVC of EF, or the HMS on Rafale.

Apart from this there is also EF Typhoon 2020. We could ask to be part of that, it is offered to Turkey.

Just PR on Turkish media, there is nothing like a Typhoon 2020 and recent news said they want to join the KFX 5. gen fighter development, which rules EF out anyway.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Actually it's not, because that means, these options are not funded, which increases the costs, it's like the 3D TVC of EF, or the HMS on Rafale.

Yeah you are right about the increased cost. But 3D TVC of EF is included in the proposal, we don't have to pay extra for that.

 

[luckyyy]

.................

 

[luckyyy]

Any sources? So far only UAE said that, but they said that about the EWS, the engines and the weapon configs as well and still wants the Rafale, because that's their normal behavior. Nothing of the shelf, everything must be better, money doesn't matter!

only UAE said that...?

the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction,
Electronic Aviation - Dassault Rafale - Problems

do anybody thinks that IAF requirments are less then of UAE & Singapore..

now ,does only UAE ans singapore said that...?.

members of the National Assembly's Finance and Defence Commissions, and there have been reports of disagreements between Dassault and DGA about cost increases and obsolescence. According to Defence Analysis (p.17, Vol 8.No.12 December 2005) Dassault have called the RBE2 radar 'fatally flawed' alleging that its range was "inadequate" and averring that the Rafale therefore relied on AWACS support to overcome this. The DGA also described the Rafale's OSF ("Optronique Secteur Frontal") as "obsolescent"
Dassault Rafale at AllExperts

Rafale AESA radar is capable of terrain following, avoidance, threat avoidance, raid assesment, high resolution mapping,search track etc. The best range is around 100 kms
Dassault Rafale
The MMRCA tender calls for a minimum detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles).
www.kuku.sawf.org/News/60169.aspx
Dassault Rafale Fails to Meet Indian Air Force MRCA Minimum Performance Requirements | India Defence

French aviation writer JM Guhl quoted "a list price given at some $66.5 million for the basic "naked" aircraft and almost $145 million with its complete set of sensors and weapons."
http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/d/da/dassault_rafale.htm

 

[ceejay]

also the cost didn't fit in the mmrca bill..

French aviation writer JM Guhl quoted "a list price given at some $66.5 million for the basic "naked" aircraft and almost $145 million with its complete set of sensors and weapons."
Dassault Rafale at AllExperts

so we can get the basic airframe from France for 66.5 million, and get them upgraded with Israeli avionics. Will save a lot of money and we can get a better aircraft.

 

[Mani2020]

The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad

By Carol Matlack
The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion—a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs—while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.

Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."

The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.

Matlack is a Paris correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek.

Source:The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants - BusinessWeek

 

[rockstarIN]

It was a huge blunder to withdraw from Euro fighter programme in 1985 by France. Now the economy is shrinking, they have to partner with either Russia or India for the future. They are giving signals by deciding to sell war ships to Russia. MMRA will decide whether India wants to go with France or not for the future.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Now the economy is shrinking, they have to partner with either Russia or India for the future. They are giving signals by deciding to sell war ships to Russia.

This is not a signal of any kind. Just selling a 2 billion$ product and you think it signals something. I think the french deals with Brazil and India will signal lot more than this.