Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Bagee]

I think you missed what i was saying. F-22's always fly with those humongous drop tanks when conducting exercises with foreign air forces. This way no foreign airforce knows the real RCS value for the Raptor. Yeah the Typhoon detected it but that was when the RCS went up several magnitudes.
If not the drop tanks I know they use some sort of passive sensor that has the same effect on the RCS.

what about the aesa on board f 22 remember typhoon do not have one

 

[typhoon77]

what about the aesa on board f 22 remember typhoon do not have one

I don't really understand, what you are trying to ask? The typhoon will have an AESA. It will by 2015,the prototype has already been developed.

 

[angeldemon_007]

I think aesa is the requirement for MMRCA deal. AESA is already build for Rafale and its already being tested. EUfighter will also have to provide aesa if they want to win.

 

[angeldemon_007]

I think typhoon will win. They are offering a very good deal plus the diplomatic advantage on selecting typhoon. This deal now revolves around world politics, a couple of billion $ won't matter.
Even rafale F4, now equipped aesa will be a very good choice but french offer is not so attractive. Eurofighter on the other hand are ready to make India as their 5th partner and even ready to transfer some production from Germany to India.
While if see the actual deal, its the Gripen NG. India cannot get any other deal like Saab's. Gripen is even cheaper, and i think NG is also available in 2 engine. But Saab won't win because of no political gain.

Does anybody knows whether IAF have tested Gripen NG ??/ During the trials Saab didn't send the NG version which is actually offered to India.

 

[truthseeker2010]

The problem that I see with EF is the cost over runs that has experienced by European defense procurement not only on EF program but also on others. But yes the decision will be heavily influenced by politics rather than technical perimeters.

 

[angeldemon_007]

The problem that I see with EF is the cost over runs

What exactly is the price offered to India in mmrca deal by eurofighter ?/ I m asking this because there are many price theories going on, on the web. Even on wiki its different. According to wiki its affordable. According to the highest price that i have seen in the various forums, 11-12 billion dollars. Any1 who has the exact prices plz do share along with the source.

But now new prices will be offered. If India plays well, the prices may fall down. But if we look at the world market of fighter planes, the price of the whole deal might get raised by 1-1.5 billion dollar, but hey it does not matter to indian politicians and beaurocrats.

 

[sudhir007]

Detail of missile in MRCA

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/M-MRCA-The_contending_missiles.pdf

 

[Bagee]

I don't really understand, what you are trying to ask? The typhoon will have an AESA. It will by 2015,the prototype has already been developed.

i am saying that when those f 22 where doing there dog fights with typhoon where were those asea radars why ere they not able t detect typhoons earlier than typhoons

 

[SpArK]

PM heading to Berlin, Germany to pitch for Eurofighter​

NEW DELHI: Germany is set to sharpen its pitch for selling Eurofighter Typhoon combat jets to India when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh goes to Berlin next month, a day-long trip that will focus on expanding the strategic relationship between the two would-be non-permanent members of the UN Security Council.

Manmohan Singh is expected to fly to Berlin Dec 11 for a day-long visit after attending India's summit with the 27-nation European Union (EU) in Brussels.

This will be the second visit by Manmohan Singh to Berlin since he became the country's prime minister over six years ago.

Manmohan Singh and Merkel met recently at the G20 summit of major and emerging economies in Seoul. A bilateral visit by Manmohan Singh to Germany has been in the making for some time, but it was only last week it was decided to include a day-long visit to Berlin to the prime minister's itinerary that was earlier confined to a stand-alone visit to Brussels for the India-EU summit.

Manmohan Singh and Merkel, who enjoy a special chemistry, are expected to focus on expanding defence relationship and enlarging the scope of their strategic dialogue on key global issues like UN reforms, the international financial crisis, counter-terrorism, non-proliferation and climate change.

The UN reforms will be a key item on agenda, a senior official, who did not wish to be names, told IANS.

Significantly, the meeting between Manmohan Singh and Merkel will take place barely weeks before India and Germany join the UN Security Council as non-permanent members Jan 1, 2011. "This explains the focus on a dialogue over big-picture global issues," said the official.

Both countries are in favour of unity among G-4 countries (India, Brazil, Japan and Germany) to realise their collective quest for permanent seats on an expanded United Nations Security Council (UNSC), a point that was made forcefully by German ambassador to India Thomas Matussek recently.

Germany, on its part, is set to make a renewed pitch for the Eurofighter project at a time when the contest for a $10.4 billion tender for supplying 126 fighter aircraft to India is intensifying by the day.

Germany will contend that the Eurofighter offer is unique as it involves technology transfer and is likely to stress that it is ready to forgo the End-User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) that even India's close partners like the US insist on, an informed source disclosed.

Early this week, the German envoy outlined the attractions of the Eurofighter Typhoon at a speech at the Indian Council for World Affairs. "We are here for the long haul...We are even forgoing the End-User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) and offering complete transfer of technology. We would like India to work closely with us in the future development of the aircraft," he had said.

Germany, which is leading the Eurofighter consortium of several leading defence giants in Europe including EADS and BAE Systems , is hoping that India takes a favorable decision on the Eurofighter by the time Merkel comes here in the summer next year, the source disclosed.

The Eurofighter Typhoon will be competing against the US F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper, Sweden's Gripen, France's Rafale and Russia's MiG-35 to win the Indian Air Force's medium multi-role combat ircraft (MMRCA) project, touted as the mother of all defence deals.

Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy have come together to pitch for the Typhoon. British Defence Secretary Liam Fox extolled the Typhoon during his visit to India, saying it performed brilliantly in the field trials conducted by the IAF.


PM heading to Berlin, Germany to pitch for Eurofighter - The Economic Times

 

[kingdurgaking]

PM heading to Berlin, Germany to pitch for Eurofighter​

Germany will contend that the Eurofighter offer is unique as it involves technology transfer and is likely to stress that it is ready to forgo the End-User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) that even India's close partners like the US insist on, an informed source disclosed.

hmmm when is this new propaganda started ... "close partner"... if this is true.. then germany ta ta bye bye for EFT

 

[SpArK]

RAF Dropping to 6 Fast-Jet Units​

A BRITISH ROYAL Air Force Typhoon F2 flies in close formation with a RAF Tornado F3. (Courtesy of U.K. Ministry of Defence)



LONDON - Britain may halve its fast-jet fleet by 2020 or so, according to the commanding officer of the Royal Air Force's No. 1 Group.

"We are heading for five Typhoon squadrons and one JSF [Joint Strike Fighter] squadron," said Air Vice-Marshal Greg Bagwell, who commands the RAF's air combat group. "It will be a six-squadron world; that's what's on the books."


That could mean 107 Typhoons, plus about 40 F-35C JSFs that support a large operational squadron of 20 to 25 crews, Bagwell said.



Typhoon numbers could be clipped even further if Britain and Oman seal a deal to send the Persian Gulf nation about a squadron's worth of aircraft. The planes could be diverted from an existing RAF order; the question is whether they will then later be replaced, he said.

In 1990, the RAF had 33 fast-jet squadrons; in 2003, 17. Today, the number stands at 12: seven Tornado, three Typhoon and two Harrier squadrons, plus the offensive firepower of a growing fleet of Reaper UAVs.

By April, Britain will be down to eight fast-jet squadrons, thanks to the retirement of the Harriers and the shelving of two Tornado units.

The Tornado force has already been eroded by a covert 2009 order from the previous Labour administration to cut the number of crews in each squadron. But that number is expected to return to its previous level next year as squadrons are eliminated and crews shift around.

Those cuts, and others, were ordered by an October decision to ax defense spending over the next four years as part of a wider government plan to reduce public borrowing levels. The cuts bit deep into RAF capabilities; other reductions hit battlefield surveillance, maritime reconnaissance, helicopter transport and other capabilities.

"Six squadrons is the low point for the U.K.'s fast jet fleet," one analyst said. "You can expect that to recover a little as the Ministry of Defence bolsters its force of Joint Strike Fighters beyond the current level mandated in the new strategic defense and security review."

Bagwell was less sanguine. He called the first JSF squadron a "start point" and said more may come, but for the moment, "I expect a single squadron in 2020 and that's it."

Other senior RAF officers have said they aim eventually to operate around 100 F-35Cs, which will split their time operating from land bases and from the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers being built for the Royal Navy.

Bagwell said the fast-jet cuts were challenging but manageable so long as the RAF is not tasked to do much more than its current deployments: Tornados to the NATO effort in Afghanistan, and Typhoons to quick reaction alert (QRA) forces in Britain and the Falkland Islands.

"Am I happy to be down at that number [eight squadrons] next April? No, it worries the hell out of me because it's a small combat air force," he said. "I can just about do Op Herrick [Afghanistan] and the QRAs. Can I do other things? Yes, but it is at risk.

"Actually, I am more worried about what other people think I can do tomorrow," he said. "The whole thing about procurement and posture is as much about long-term future deterrence and keeping the enemy on the back foot as it is about physically fighting. The deterrence and coercive effect of air power has somehow got lost in the noise."

TYPHOON QUESTIONS

Bagwell said the RAF would likely ax its 55 Tranche 1 Typhoons by mid-decade because it would cost too much to bring them up to the required multirole standards offered by Tranche 2 and Tranche 3. That would mean the RAF Typhoon fleet would top out at 107 machines.

But the Typhoon fleet could shrink even further, Bagwell said.

The "great unknown in the plans is the awful lot of potential export customers," he said.


The proposed deal with Oman is in the final stages of negotiation; discussions are now underway about where those dozen or so aircraft might come from. The RAF's Typhoon force could fall further if the planes are diverted from the Air Force's order and are not replaced.

Difficulties in Britain's 72-plane sale to Saudi Arabia are creating more uncertainty. The first 24 are being diverted from the RAF's Tranche 2 order, and the service is to get more Tranche 3 aircraft instead. The other 48 are to be assembled in Saudi Arabia as part of an effort to build up local industry.

But industry sources said the plan has run into difficulties that raise questions about how Britain will fill the Saudi order.

Bagwell said options could include taking additional aircraft from the RAF production run and replacing them later.

"Should we get the buybacks out of Saudi Arabia and Oman as planned, we will be back to the number of Typhoons I need," he said. "At the moment, if I don't get the [Omani] buyback and this is under discussion ... it could take me down to 95 aircraft."

He said any changes to RAF deliveries would affect the service's ability to train crews.

A spokesman for BAE Systems, which is helping to build the aircraft, said he couldn't comment on Saudi issues.

Bagwell also revealed:

■ The 2011 planning round could change the timing of the upgrade of Typhoon jets to a full multirole aircraft. Dubbed the Future Capabilities Program 2, it will allow the jets to carry Storm Shadow, Brimstone and other weapons.

■ The decision to switch the planned purchase of short-takeoff, vertical-landing F-35Bs to the conventional carrier C version will give the Air Force a true deep-penetration capability.

■ The Sentinel R1 surveillance capability, to be axed by the government after the Afghanistan war, could be replaced through programs like the Scavenger UAV and new active electronically scanned array radars on Typhoon and JSF.

■ The 2011 planning round may speed up creation of the final two Typhoon squadrons, now slated for 2015, by as much as a year.

Bagwell told reporters that the date on which the RAF hits six squadrons would depend in part on Ministry of Defence decisions about the drawdown of the Tornado strike aircraft as Typhoons arrive.

"We still need to hold on to a portion of the Tornado force, and it will be a very important decision for the next defense review [expected in 2015] as to how the crossover is achieved between Typhoon and Tornado," he said. "My gut instinct is that we will need at least two or three Tornado squadrons at the 2017 point, keeping the squadron numbers at the six to eight figure."

The Tornado fleet is currently scheduled to retire in 2021. The government recently announced a reduction in the number of Tornados required to sustain ongoing operations, known as force elements, from 40 to 18 by 2015.

Elizabeth Quintana, head of air power and technology at the Royal United Services Institute, said she didn't think air power suffered worse in the cuts than many other sectors.

"The benefit is that unlike the Army [spared the worst of the cuts due to the war in Afghanistan], the Air Force now knows what its configuration is going to look like in the 2017-2020 timeframe," she said. "Where aircraft numbers are going in the future and what impact unmanned combat air vehicles might have is too early to say. F-35 and Typhoon give you more capable platforms but with fewer numbers."

She noted that synthetic training will reduce the number of aircraft kept off the front lines.


RAF Dropping to 6 Fast-Jet Units - Defense News

 

[sancho]

..is it too difficult for you to understand? Allow me to dumb it down for you. The only reason Dassault have used US origin components in the "targeting systems, radar components and safety systems" as per US Defense Technology Security Administration is because it couldn't source those components locally or regionally (within Europe).

That's what you claim, but the Eurocanards use US components, for the same reasons why export customers prefer US weapons, because they can be produced cheaper and in higher numbers. The difference is, that Gripen uses critical US parts like the engine (instead of EJ 200 that was offered too), while EF and Rafale uses only minor parts from the US.

Although it does not appear that the tech data provided
with the French bid violated ITAR regs, PM/DDTC and DTSA
should continue to monitor French marketing to ensure
Dassault does not skirt ITAR restrictions.

Didn't you read this part of the cable? Because it shows, although Dassault is officially offering clearly more ToT to Brazil than the US, they did not violate any US restrictions and that is the crucial point! They developed the main techs on their own and cann offer all critical ToT, without any chance of the US to pressure like they did in the Gripen often.

...As a matter of fact, several key Rafale components are sourced from Britain, Switzerland, Italy,Germany,Spain and the United States.

Now if Germany refuses to export the parts needed by Rafale's M88 engine to Brazil the aircraft will remain in the hangar until France is able to invest billions in developing single crystal blades of the exact specifications required by its M88 engine to replace the 'components' previously manufactured by TITAL. Considering this how is Dassault marketing the Rafale as an 'Independent Choice" - isn't it fraudulent as claimed by the leaked memo?

It's getting better and better, now you claim that Germany, the closest political partner of France, would sanction them?

The European countries are working more and more together, to get rid of exactly these dependence and restrictions of the US, so no matter what you claim, they will not pose sanctions on each other.

 

[sancho]

i have read that the RBE-2 radar of the rafale has a detection range of only 100 km .

france has not bothered to have a long range for the rafale's radar because it has AWACS which will give it the position of the target by data-link .

but india can hardly afford to have an aircraft with such a low range of radar . even the pakisatani f-16 block 52s have a radar with range of 300 km .

how come the indians are even considering this aircraft if its radar's range is so low ??

Please check your sources once more, because you are claiming many wrong facts here. RBE 2 is available as a PESA radar and now in the RBE 2 AA AESA radar also, the range is expected (no official specs available) clearly above PAFs F16s, but below F16 B60.
The 300Km range that you mentioned is not for fighter size targets, otherwise it would be even superior to MKIs Bars.
You possibly confused the detection of ships, or big aircrafts here.
Btw, Pakistan has even more AWACS than we have, so by your logic they shouldn't bother about their fighter radars too right? Dassault optted for a smaller radar size than actually could be possible, in favour of other detection sensors of the FSO. They focused on passive detection, than on active, because active radars can be detected way earlier.

RAF Dropping to 6 Fast-Jet Units​

...

So it gets more and more risky to join that consortium, because even the initial partners are trying to back out of the development. Also interesting, a decision on Brimstone, or Storm Shadow (which means basically on Tranche 3 at all), if at all by somewhere in 2011 only. What once more tells us, that the capabilities of EF will depend on our decision to buy/fund it, or not.

Btw, after Greece and Ireland, it is expected that Portugal and Spain must be bailed out, because their dept is increasing too much and it is rumoured that Italy could follow. So after UK that axed their budgets, the next 2 EF partners might follow.

 

[sancho]

I found this interesting article on the Rafale international website of the Brazilian competiton, which confirms what I said earlier about the techs and foreign components in Rafale once again:

(Google translated)

Rafale International clarifies information about the French proposal in the FX-2

Brasilia, November 12, 2009 - The French Rafale International consortium, formed by the Dassault Aviation, Snecma and Thales, conference held on the afternoon of Thursday to clarify the public information that does not correspond to reality and what has been disclosed in recent weeks on the French proposal in the FX-2, the selection process of the Brazilian Government for the purchase of new fighter aircraft of the FAB...

...On the origin of components and technologies: All technologies are 100% Rafale French Rafale International consortium and does not need permission from any country to sell them.

It must be noted that components are not the same as technologies. For components, there are over 100 000 in one game. Yes there are parts of other countries in the Rafale, as well as the other two competitors, in the case of the Rafale, they were selected for economic reasons and everyone can be replaced....


...On technology transfer, the Rafale International consortium strengthens the proposal that the Rafale provides unrestricted transfer of technology and already approved, including the critical, Brazil. The industrial cooperation program of the French proposal is well founded, with agreements signed with 39 companies for 68 projects and partnerships with the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro and the ITA.

Following French law, the authorization for the transfer of technology was granted by the executive before the French Rafale enter the contest and no longer depends on any new permit, unlike the U.S. where there is a need for approval by the U.S. legislature. The authorization of the U.S. Congress that has been disclosed is a pre-authorization, which will still be reviewed and may be vetoes, on the occasion of periodic reviews, as did the sale of F-16 missiles to Chile. No known restrictions on how the U.S. can affect the transfer of technology from the Gripen.

It is noteworthy that this particular project, due to the strategic partnership between Brazil and France, offering the Rafale incorporates a transfer of critical technology in an unprecedented scale.

The first six aircraft will be built in France with Brazilian participation, to ensure the learning industry and fast delivery of the first fighters to FAB. The remaining 30 fighters will be assembled in Brazil, with production of parts being transferred gradually to the Brazilian industry, reaching 50% in the thirty-sixth aircraft and certainly increase if Brazil expand the program...

:. RAFALE .:


Once again:

- all techs are French, which means developed by French companies and what allows them to sell them without any foreign approval

- foreign components are procured for economic reasons and can be replaced

- ToT includes critical techs and don't need further approvals

- 50% of the Rafales parts will be build in Brazil itself, when the order of 36 fighters will be finished and could (now consider an order of at least 126 and how much we might build in India itself, especially when we could integrate Kaveri - Snecma engine!)

 

[sancho]

First official reports about Cruzex V

Crossposting from the MP forum:

Rafale 's first in Brazil

Air actualités , Dec 2010

For the first time the Rafale crossed the equator!" says the General Dominique de Longvilliers Dominique, head of the French detachment. During Cruzex V, the Rafale participated in its first exercice in Brazil. Upon their arrival in Natal, the crew of Saint-Dizier had been given special attention, especially from the media. Lieutenant-Colonel Sebastien Michel gave dozens of interviews. "This media expectation is perfectly understandable", says the head of 1/91" Gascogne". Cruzex allowed the Rafale to demonstrate the range of its capabilities. With 100% missions acomplished ,refuelling done , ground targets destroyed and no aircraft lost, its record was impressive.The versatility and performances of the omnirole aircraft commanded admiration from everyone. "I've been able to notice that while I was flying on the backseat of one of our F-16s", told the General MacNamara, chief of the Chilean detachment. "We have been beaten during a simulated air combat, while this is the strongpoint of our aircraft. It was impressive." Less under the spotlight, the Mirage 2000-5 pilots have also demonstrated their expertise in air defense. "We did only escort missions and sweeps, explains Lieutenant-Colonel Vincent Coste , Commander of the 1/2 "Cigognes. We fought against enemy planes to clear the sky and allow the bombers to carry out their attacks (depth strikes , air-ground firing ...)".
Mirage and Rafale: the mission is successful for the french crews.

The same Chilean General was interviewed by an Brazilian reporter too (google translated):

Posting in the Chilean Air CRUZEX V
Word of the Commander
Brigadier General Caesar Air Mac-Namara Manríquez

Journalist Roberto Caiafa
Special Envoy CRUZEX

The Brigadier General Caesar Air Mac-Namara Manríquez must assume his new duties in 2011 as Sub Chief of Joint Staff of the FACH, and be promoted to the rank of General Aviation. The decision has been approved by the President, Mr. Sebastian Pinera Echenique. This introduction aims to introduce readers to the Internet who is this brilliant young Chilean official aviator in one of his last statements before operating assume this new mission...

...How do you see the Chilean participation in CRUZEX and what the most positive things that can enumerate its Air Force to participate in this fifth edition of the multinational training?

Participation in Chilean CRUZEX responds to an excellent relationship between Brazil and Chile, both politically and among the two peoples. On the operational side, this year presents us with two elements, one of them is to demonstrate our capabilities, as do five and a half hours flight from Iquique to Christmas (with two Revos - refueling), a long journey made by our fighters and transports perfect form, the other, enjoy each moment we have here in Brazil to operate in conjunction with the Brazilian Air Force and other air forces participating. The exchange that takes place in aspects such as differences in the operations of each aircraft, the interaction between the officers and many other details and transfers of knowledge, everything is very valid.

F-16C / D Block 50 represents one of the top line of fighter aviation, in speaking of South America How do you evaluate your aircraft and its pilots face a 4th generation aircraft like the Rafale?

V CUZEX this might have experience with the Mirage 2000-5 jet fighters (NE: type version that Peru intends to upgrade its Mirage) and the brand new Rafale. And we could prove in practice that we have a very good capacity. Our training and our weapons systems are at a level of technological development and operational protection.

It is true that the Rafale is superior in some respects compared to the F-16 Block 50, but the good response we received may be summarized as "with good training and good equipment can produce a yield very significant from an aircraft call 4th generation"

So the same Chilean (neutral) official confirms in 2 different interviews, that the Rafale (present version without AESA, or Meteor and for sure without showing full capabilities of SPECTRA) was superior to F16 B50 (PAFs F16s will be upgraded to the same level) in air combats during the exercise.