Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[luckyyy]

Do you have 7 to 10 Billion$? If you don't then your liking the Rafael doesn't help. The Rafale may catch a break in Brazil, if it doesn't then its curtains, lets hope Lula succeeds in shoving the Rafale down a reluctant FAB's(Força Aérea Brasileira) throat.

any idea why EF couldn't even make it to finals in brazil..?

 

[luckyyy]

intrestingly French president coming next dec 4 , i am sure if the upgraded deal wonldn't get signed this time , i means it's not required...

also due to the contrect clouses in the mirage deal , india can't modify them without french ......the same will be apply to Rfale too , even india will get T0T and build the aircraft at home but when comes the alteration /modification/upgrade has to be done by the french....and has to pay heaftly..
on the same line i think F-16/18 & MIG-35 also follows...

also the false claims of franch tech has seen in Matra Durandal..

so did france not hopefull of getting the mmrca deal as apperent in their behaviour...


the rest two EF & Gripen ......

anybody has idea why EF couldn't make it to finals at brazil...

and the SU-35 withdraws..........

 

[jha]

intrestingly French president coming next dec 4 , i am sure if the upgraded deal wonldn't get signed this time , i means it's not required...

also due to the contrect clouses in the mirage deal , india can't modify them without french ......the same will be apply to Rfale too , even india will get T0T and build the aircraft at home but when comes the alteration /modification/upgrade has to be done by the french....and has to pay heaftly..
on the same line i think F-16/18 & MIG-35 also follows...

also the false claims of franch tech has seen in Matra Durandal..

so did france not hopefull of getting the mmrca deal as apperent in their behaviour...


the rest two EF & Gripen ......

anybody has idea why EF couldn't make it to finals at brazil...

and the SU-35 withdraws..........

i am sure if the upgraded deal wonldn't get signed this time , i means it's not required...

This deal WILL be signed..And yes the upfrades ARE required to make these aircrafts deadlier..

also due to the contrect clouses in the mirage deal , india can't modify them without french ......the same will be apply to Rfale too , even india will get T0T and build the aircraft at home but when comes the alteration /modification/upgrade has to be done by the french

There is no such problem with french..We have altered their planes in past and there was no big issue..

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Where did you learn this..?

It super cruises and that too at >Mach 1.1.

ok..so with after burner it can achieve more speed right ?

 

[sancho]

You obviously don't follow the competition!

You couldn't find it because it does not exist, the one report submitted to Defense Minister Nelson Jobim had the Gripen on top, the F/A-18 E/F in second place and the Rafale in last place. Both Defense minister Nelson Jobim and President Lula have publicly expressed their preference for Rafale...

That's the fake report that came up in the press, Gripen came never on top out of the FAB evaluations! The first evaluation even had the F18SH as the best choice, because they took requirements that was set in the initial competition that gave cost-effectiveness priority. But that doesn't fit to the actual requirements of Brazil anymore, that's why they now gave ToT and industrial benefits a higher rating. Especially the ToT requirement puts the SH now way back behind the others, with Rafale as first and Gripen as second. Btw Gripen came second only, because of high risks and less offsets, while it was even leading in terms of ToT!

Força Aérea Brasileira is opposed to the Rafale primarily because the air force will be severely hampered by the significantly higher operating cost of the Rafale...

The preference for Gripen is mainly PR by Saab, that has close relations to Embraer and other Brazilian companies that hopes to get some involvement into Gripen development. That of course is not possible with Rafale, or F18SH, because they are already operational and that can only be build under licence, or in terms of the SH assembled mainly.

Unlilke India, Brazil has no real threat from other nations, so higher numbers of Gripens would fulfill their needs. However, Brazil is an emerging economy and is searching for strategic benefits, be it for defense deals, or political support and that's exactly what Saab/Sweden can't offer. Not to mention that the Gripen is highly dependen on other nations and especially the bad experience with US restrictions in a problem for the gov!
For these requirements, France and the Rafale are obviously the best choice for them and there is a little doubt that any other fighter would win this competition.
France is for Brazil what Russia is for India, a reliable long term strategic partner!

any idea why EF couldn't even make it to finals in brazil..?

Most likely for the same reason it didn't made it in most of the competitions it was fielded, highest costs and A2G capabilities!

also due to the contrect clouses in the mirage deal , india can't modify them without french

Oh boy, we did changes on the Mirage during Kargil even without telling them and as we told them about it, they didn't said anything!

 

[sancho]

This deal WILL be signed..And yes the upfrades ARE required to make these aircrafts deadlier..

Btw, Jha did you heared anything about AASM, or Scalp included in the upgrade package? Both would be a big boost of IAF strike capabilities, but I didn't read anything about it.

ok..so with after burner it can achieve more speed right ?

Yes, but that's what all contenders can. Super Cruise instead is only said for EF, Gripen NG and to some extend the Rafale.

 

[jha]

Btw, Jha did you heared anything about AASM, or Scalp included in the upgrade package? Both would be a big boost of IAF strike capabilities, but I didn't read anything about it.



Yes, but that's what all contenders can. Super Cruise instead is only said for EF, Gripen NG and to some extend the Rafale.

No..No Scalp as much as i have heard..However there is some gossip that Upgrade will make all these on par with French mirage ( capable of launching N-attacks..)..thats why so secrecy in the scope of the deal..

 

[sancho]

No..No Scalp as much as i have heard..However there is some gossip that Upgrade will make all these on par with French mirage ( capable of launching N-attacks..)..thats why so secrecy in the scope of the deal..

Interesting, could that be the reason why MKIs trained protecting high value targets in the Grauda Exercise? There were many pics of them in close formation with French Mirage 2000s.

 

[jha]

Interesting, could that be the reason why MKIs trained protecting high value targets in the Grauda Exercise? There were many pics of them in close formation with French Mirage 2000s.

YEs..that might be the reason..
Infact converting mirages into Mirage-N config. is a masterstroke..Then it will be interesting to have ~90 N-capable aircrafts..Infact it will be beneficial to buy the Qatar and UAE Miarge than stretching the MRCA order to 200.

 

[luckyyy]

we did changes on the Mirage during Kargil even without telling them and as we told them about it, they didn't said anything!

so you think IAF will be doing this again to rafale as well without telling them and they will not say anything.......
as i read from news reports , france did registered their objection on the alteration on mirage during kargil..

but that was not the point , the fect of the matter is , india have to go to them for any modification/upgrade on Rafale and pay the cost they ask...like the mirage upgrade...

 

[dbc]

Yes, but that's what all contenders can. Super Cruise instead is only said for EF, Gripen NG and to some extend the Rafale.

None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration. EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise with light air to air loads. The Rafale has claimed the ability to super cruise but this was never demonstrated.

 

[GORKHALI]

None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration. EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise with light air to air loads. The Rafale has claimed the ability to super cruise but this was never demonstrated.

aaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! ARE YOU SURE ABOUT F/A 18 SUPER HORNY AND F-16 can SUPERCRUISE ???? please do provide some link not any forum members comment

 

[dbc]

You obviously don't follow the competition!



That's the fake report that came up in the press, Gripen came never on top out of the FAB evaluations! The first evaluation even had the F18SH as the best choice, because they took requirements that was set in the initial competition that gave cost-effectiveness priority. But that doesn't fit to the actual requirements of Brazil anymore, that's why they now gave ToT and industrial benefits a higher rating. Especially the ToT requirement puts the SH now way back behind the others, with Rafale as first and Gripen as second. Btw Gripen came second only, because of high risks and less offsets, while it was even leading in terms of ToT!





The preference for Gripen is mainly PR by Saab, that has close relations to Embraer and other Brazilian companies that hopes to get some involvement into Gripen development. That of course is not possible with Rafale, or F18SH, because they are already operational and that can only be build under licence, or in terms of the SH assembled mainly.

Unlilke India, Brazil has no real threat from other nations, so higher numbers of Gripens would fulfill their needs. However, Brazil is an emerging economy and is searching for strategic benefits, be it for defense deals, or political support and that's exactly what Saab/Sweden can't offer. Not to mention that the Gripen is highly dependen on other nations and especially the bad experience with US restrictions in a problem for the gov!
For these requirements, France and the Rafale are obviously the best choice for them and there is a little doubt that any other fighter would win this competition.
France is for Brazil what Russia is for India, a reliable long term strategic partner!

Sancho you're saying there are three reports that had each of the three finalist in the lead? Like I said before start your posts with "Once upon a time....."

FAB wants the Gripen everyone in Brazil knows this...

 

[sancho]

YEs..that might be the reason..
Infact converting mirages into Mirage-N config. is a masterstroke..Then it will be interesting to have ~90 N-capable aircrafts..Infact it will be beneficial to buy the Qatar and UAE Miarge than stretching the MRCA order to 200.

I doubt that we will go for them, because they don't come at small prices and even if, I'd prefer to take the UAE M2K instead of an upgrade of the older once. Even French pilots say that those M2Ks are the most advanced versions, but the UAE knows that too of course.

so you think IAF will be doing this again to rafale as well without telling them and they will not say anything..

...india have to go to them for any modification/upgrade on Rafale and pay the cost they ask...like the mirage upgrade...

For sure! If it is neccesary for the security of India in such a war situation like Kargil and they are able to do it, they HAVE TO DO IT (!!!), no matter which vendor will protest. Those issues can be cleared later, but India comes first!

And no, Dassault won't have an issue with that, because they (and France gov) didn't had some back then, when we were not much more than a simple customer and for sure won't have it if we would buy nearly as much Rafales as they are.
Btw, they were the first to offer full ToT of the radar and source codes, which already give us the freedom to modify the fighter, not to mention that they offered Kaveri-Snecma engine integration. What more should they offer to show that we have ultimate freedom?
The upgrade could be costly, can't argue with that, but we always have to go for any upgrade to the vendors. That's the way we do it with the Russian fighters (Su 30 MKI, or Mig 29) and how it is planed with Mirage too, but only with some of the fighter, the rest will be upgraded in India at HAL. It would be interesting how that would be if we go for the SH? Isn't PAF sending their F16s B15 to Turkey to be upgraded?

 

[sancho]

None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration. EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise with light air to air loads. The Rafale has claimed the ability to super cruise but this was never demonstrated.

Why do you have to made up arguments for the US fighters? Has the Super Hornet, or the F18 Hornet showed SC capabilities?
The F16 can't SC either, even LM says:

a clean F-16, with only wingtip missiles, can reach Mach 1.1 without reheat. But the company says supercruise is defined as the ability to fly faster than Mach 1.5, in combat configuration.

The truth about that "supercruising" F-16 for India (The Woracle)


So it is far away from the sustained SC with real A2A loads that EF and Gripen demonstrated and even more far away from what the company itself acknowledges as SC.
So bottom line only the Eurocanards has proven SC, or claim to do so at least with A2A loads. Dassault for example says:

«The Rafale is ideal for the job, stresses one of the two duty pilots.
It can climb to 40,000 feet in under two minutes and accelerate
very rapidly to supersonic speed. More significantly, it can supercruise
in dry power, even with four missiles and a belly drop
tank. Endurance is excellent too, and we can stay airborne up
to two hours with one tank.»

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...teur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf

Although it is an official Dassault Aviation source and according to reports from the Swiss evaluation it demonstrated this capability their too, but even I remain sceptical till I see a figure at what speed it can do it.
As I told you before, it would be only an addition to the advantages it already offers!

Sancho you're saying there are three reports that had each of the three finalist in the lead? Like I said before start your posts with "Once upon a time....."

FAB wants the Gripen everyone in Brazil knows this...

Not really, I was only talking about the 2 official reports FAB made for the technical evaluations, you instead were talking about the made up report of the media.