Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[dbc]

Why do you have to made up arguments for the US fighters? Has the Super Hornet, or the F18 Hornet showed SC capabilities?
The F16 can't SC either, even LM says:



The truth about that "supercruising" F-16 for India (The Woracle)


So it is far away from the sustained SC with real A2A loads that EF and Gripen demonstrated and even more far away from what the company itself acknowledges as SC.
So bottom line only the Eurocanards has proven SC, or claim to do so at least with A2A loads. Dassault for example says:



http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...teur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf

Although it is an official Dassault Aviation source and according to reports from the Swiss evaluation it demonstrated this capability their too, but even I remain sceptical till I see a figure at what speed it can do it.
As I told you before, it would be only an addition to the advantages it already offers!




Not really, I was only talking about the 2 official reports FAB made for the technical evaluations, you instead were talking about the made up report of the media.

Go back and read my post I said "None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration". Four or two air to air missiles is not a meaningful battle configuration. Any meaningful battle configuration requires all weapons stations to be occupied.

You quote a blog to prove that the F-16 can't super cruise, the author of the blog actually confirms what I said, two wingtip missile is a light air -to - air configuration. By USAF definition of supercruise the F-16 does not qualify, neither does the the F-15,Rafale or the F/A-18 E/F.

The F-18 was the first US fighter capable of supersonic speeds without the use of afterburners.

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@aero/documents/content/ct_196796.pdf

Yes the Hornet can briefly sustain supersonic speeds without AB with a centerline drop tank and air to air missiles but by USAF definition "... the ability to cruise at speeds of one and a half times the speed of sound or greater without the use of afterburner for extended periods in combat configuration."

None of the MMRCA jets including the Rafale and Hornet can supercruise.

According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction, according to Defence Analysis.

Electronic Aviation - Dassault Rafale - Problems

 

[the rafter]

According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction, according to Defence Analysis.

This article is like 4 yrs old? Does the current rafale still have all of these major issues?

 

[luckyyy]

This deal WILL be signed..And yes the upfrades ARE required to make these aircrafts deadlier..

There is no such problem with french..We have altered their planes in past and there was no big issue..

According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction, according to Defence Analysis. .

The Taiwan defence ministry will consider a proposal to scrap the air force's Mirage 200 jets from service or seal and store part of the fleet, according to Minister of National Defense Kao Hua-chu.

The air force's budget for 2010 shows that the operation and maintenance cost of the Mirage 2000 is earmarked at about $24,840 a flight hour.

In comparison, it costs about $4,937 a flight hour to fly the nation's F-16 fighters and $7,715 a flight hour for the country's self-developed indigenous defence fighters.

The air force ordered 60 Mirage jets in 1992, the first squadron of which came into service in December 1997. Currently, 57 of the planes are still in service.

Taiwan Looks to Scrap Mirage 2000 Jets - Air Force Technology

 

[the rafter]

The Taiwan defence ministry will consider a proposal to scrap the air force's Mirage 200 jets from service or seal and store part of the fleet, according to Minister of National Defense Kao Hua-chu

Again, this is an old article!
Here's the last development that took place:

France compensates Taiwan for Mirage 2000 engine trouble

France has compensated Taiwan for engine damage to its Mirage 2000s, and the fighter jets have since been returned to their normal training operations, Air Force officials said.
Ger Hsi-hsiung (葛熙&#29066, chief of staff of the Air Force, made the remarks at a legislative meeting last week in response to a question from Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) Legislator Lin Yu-fang (林郁&#26041, who first brought the issue to light last October, saying that the Air Force had considered suspension of operations of its Mirage fleet because of engine damage.
The Air Force regulates that each Mirage pilot fly 15 hours monthly, but because of the damaged fighters, Mirage pilots were only able to maintain eight hours of training operations from September to December last year.
Ger told the legislative meeting that the Air Force had later reached a deal with France in which the latter had agreed to supply the aircraft’s Snecma M53-P2 turbofan engines and that the fighter squadron, since January, has returned to its regular monthly 15 hours of training operations.
Lin said France sent personnel to Taiwan late last year to repair the engines. It also provided advanced scope testing equipment for fighter aircraft, trained Taiwan’s personnel free of charge, and delivered parts and supplies for the Mirages ahead of schedule. The military said the compensation was worth about 10 million euros (US$13.5 million).
Taiwan ordered 48 single-seat Mirage 2000-5EI interceptors and 12 Mirage twin-seat 2000-5DI trainers in 1992.
The first squadron became operational in 1997.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2010/03/22/2003468632

 

[luckyyy]

Again, this is an old article!
Here's the last development that took place:

just a year old article....
the aircrafts are just 12 years old....

they are compansating by money to repair them free not improving the aircrafts....the next time aircraft fly will still going to cost $25000 per hour...

IAF mirage are even older...don't know how much they be costing to operate...

on mmrca , the IAF knows better , but there was a news that Rafale failed in technicle eveluation , but then under govt pressure it still fly in field evaluation...

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

So none of the jets can supercruise with all stations occupied but..
1.can't they (typhoon, gripen, fa 18 )still maintain better speed than f16 and rafale with out after burner.
2. Typhoon and gripen will regain the ability to supercruise once they use the missiles and reduce the load to desired level.. Right or wrong ?

 

[the rafter]

just a year old article....
the aircrafts are just 12 years old....
they are compansating by money to repair them free not improving the aircrafts....the next time aircraft fly will still going to cost $25000 per hour...
IAF mirage are even older...don't know how much they be costing to operate...
on mmrca , the IAF knows better , but there was a news that Rafale failed in technicle eveluation , but then under govt pressure it still fly in field evaluation...

I don't think India has any issues with its Mirage fleet. Mirage was successfully used during Kargil war. India even asked to buy more Mirages but France denied (offered Rafale instead) and thats how MMRCA was floated.

 

[dbc]

This article is like 4 yrs old? Does the current rafale still have all of these major issues?

It can't be said with any certainty that these problems have been fixed. It is certain that the Rafale acquisition represents a higher risk for the IAF due to the known unknowns. We know the F1/F2 have issues and capability GAPs - are these addressed with F3? Basic capability like target designation is only recently possible with the introduction of Damocles. Even the JF-17 Thunder a 15m$ plane has a target designation pod in the first block.

The problematic OSF's IR-channel has been deleted from the newer OSF-IT, in this particular case the French choose to eliminate rather than fix. Much needed capability like HMD's is not even funded.

These and other issues that have been discussed to death on this very thread may have been resolved but unless the IAF acquires and operates the aircraft there is no way to know for sure that everything works as advertised.

Is the IAF prepared to risk the possible acquisition of an expensive hangar queen? Especially knowing that with each passing day its fleet of Mig-27's, Mig-21's and other strike platforms become more dangerous and expensive to operate. I think not, and it is for this reason that I believe the Indians will likely prefer a proven platform.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

DBC..many of the VVS pilots. IAF pilots and the USAF pilots I spoke to are still skeptical about super-cruise as they dont like to fly at the trans-sonic and low supersonic speeds. Can you clarify that for me?

 

[dbc]

DBC..many of the VVS pilots. IAF pilots and the USAF pilots I spoke to are still skeptical about super-cruise as they dont like to fly at the trans-sonic and low supersonic speeds. Can you clarify that for me?

They haven't flown the Raptor, external stores or dirty wing make sustained upper transonic or supersonic flight fuel inefficient. They reason non Raptor pilots avoid this regime is because it reduces the amount of time they get to spend in the air. Internal weapons bay go a long way in reducing drag and improving fuel efficiency. In addition, most engines are time bound in full AB(afterburner). In other words, full afterburner is disabled after a few minutes of continuous operation to prevent engine damage, AB on the Raptor and F/A-18 E/F is only limited by the amount of fuel left.

 

[sancho]

EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise...

This is what you said in the last post and this is what you say now:

By USAF definition of supercruise the F-16 does not qualify, neither does the the F-15,Rafale or the F/A-18 E/F...

Once again you got caught red handed for making things up!

Also, the EF is said to SC with 4 AMRAAM and 2 Asraams at speeds up to Mach 1.5 and a normal A2A payload is a centerline fuel tank and 6 AAMs. I doubt that the 1000l centerline fuel tank of EF will produce that much drag, that it falls under Mach 1.2 and if Dassault claims are true and Rafale can SC at at least Mach 1.2, it offers the same advantage in CAP.

However, what we clearly see is the potential of modern designs like the Eurocanards, especially if we look into the future. Older designs like Mig, F16, or even the SH that simply had other design aims, don't offer such future potential.

Even the JF-17 Thunder a 15m$ plane has a target designation pod in the first block.

And the next thing you made up! JF 17 is still using dumb bombs and has no targeting pod integrated so far. Not to mention that it is totally normal for fighters to first integrate full A2A capabilities and add A2G later. EF did it, Gripen did it, Rafale did it, even your US fighters.

 

[dbc]

This is what you said in the last post and this is what you say now:



Once again you got caught red handed for making things up!

Also, the EF is said to SC with 4 AMRAAM and 2 Asraams at speeds up to Mach 1.5 and a normal A2A payload is a centerline fuel tank and 6 AAMs. I doubt that the 1000l centerline fuel tank of EF will produce that much drag, that it falls under Mach 1.2 and if Dassault claims are true and Rafale can SC at at least Mach 1.2, it offers the same advantage in CAP.

However, what we clearly see is the potential of modern designs like the Eurocanards, especially if we look into the future. Older designs like Mig, F16, or even the SH that simply had other design aims, don't offer such future potential.




And the next thing you made up! JF 17 is still using dumb bombs and has no targeting pod integrated so far. Not to mention that it is totally normal for fighters to first integrate full A2A capabilities and add A2G later. EF did it, Gripen did it, Rafale did it, even your US fighters.

Not the first time you've resorted to deception, here is my quote in its entirety. You've quoted me out of context to confuse and deceive the readers.

None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration. EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise with light air to air loads. The Rafale has claimed the ability to super cruise but this was never demonstrated.

And the next thing you made up! JF 17 is still using dumb bombs and has no targeting pod integrated so far. Not to mention that it is totally normal for fighters to first integrate full A2A capabilities and add A2G later. EF did it, Gripen did it, Rafale did it, even your US fighters.

Next, I'm no expert on JF-17 I've neither followed its development nor taken any interest in the aircraft. But according to wiki, JF-17 production run began in June 2009 and in it first international appearance in Farnborough 2010 the WMD-7 laser designation pod was prominently displayed along with the JF-17. Contrast that with
the Rafale a program that began in the 80's and touted as OMNI role fighter only demonstrated designator pod integration 23 years later in 2008. It may be normal for fighters like Eurofighter Typhoon primary built for air superiority to have limited ground strike capability but for an OMNI role fighter it is a must have.

However, what we clearly see is the potential of modern designs like the Eurocanards, especially if we look into the future. Older designs like Mig, F16, or even the SH that simply had other design aims, don't offer such future potential.

Here is future potential for the F/A-18 E/F the Boeing SuperHornet international road map with enclosed weapons pod to lower radar signature that can carry up to 2 AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles and 2 JDAM 500 pound smart bombs, full spherical laser and missile warning systems, a new cockpit based on large touch-screen technology, improved F414 engines (EDE/EPE), and conformal fuel tanks mounted up top to boost range.

Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, the Indian Air Force will have the option of adding evolutionary technologies to the platform within this decade on an incremental basis starting 2015. Funded by the US Navy and developed by Boeing, the roadmap on offer allows for the planned insertion of maturing technologies over time. Boeing says this would give the IAF flexibility over the years if they want to insert/ integrate the following new technologies:

* Enhanced Performance Engines
* Next-generation cockpit
* Spherical missile laser warning
* Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)
* Conformal fuel tanks (see aircraft in slide)
* Enclosed weapons pod (see aircraft in slide)
* Designed-in stealth
* Future survivability technology that will "make the Block II Super Hornet harder to detect, harder to hit, and harder to kill"

According to a note that Boeing sent over, "While India is getting Block II of the Super Hornet, the International Super Hornet roadmap gives India the choice of considerable growth potential. India will be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could potentially enhance future Indian Super Hornets. The design and growth of the Super Hornet has been done keeping a 40 year life span during which the aircraft remains combat proven."

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"


Contrast that with the Rafale, the French had to sell military real estate and wireless bandwidth to finance the last batch of 11 Rafale's. They don't have the money to improve the engine, radar or HMD - great future potential!!!


More bad news for the Rafale, fortunately the pilot is safe...

A French Rafale aircraft crashed into the sea for unknown reasons Sunday off the coast of Pakistan. The pilot, who ejected, was unhurt, said the Defense Ministry in Paris.

"The F3 Rafale fighter plane crashed into the sea not far from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle in the area of operations of the naval group located more than 100 km of the coast of Pakistan," the ministry said in a statement. The pilot, rescued by a helicopter, is unharmed and has been supported by the medical team from the aircraft carrier.

An investigation is underway to determine the circumstances of the accident. Since November 25, and for a period of one month, units onboard the Charles de Gaulle participate in air support missions in Afghanistan.

Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Pakistan : un Rafale s'abîme en mer

 

[FSLN]

Here is future potential for the F/A-18 E/F the Boeing SuperHornet international road map with enclosed weapons pod to lower radar signature that can carry up to 2 AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles and 2 JDAM 500 pound smart bombs, full spherical laser and missile warning systems, a new cockpit based on large touch-screen technology, improved F414 engines (EDE/EPE), and conformal fuel tanks mounted up top to boost range.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"

As I said before, the SuperHornet its an evolving platform and can't be compared to outdated F-16 or 4th gen designs..

 

[MST]

Indian MMRCA contract by March 2011: IAF Chief

The Indian contract to buy 126 MMRCA fighter aircraft is expected to be signed by March 2011, the Indian Air Force Chief of Staff, P.V. Naik has been quoted as saying.


In an interview to Vayu Aerospace, a media partner of defenseworld.net, the air force chief said that the likely timeframe for completing various activities before the contract is signed is about 6-8 months, “So, we expect the contract to be signed by March 2011. From thereon, the induction should begin by mid 2014 onwards".

The RFP for the M-MRCA was issued in August 2007 to six global vendors. These vendors responded with their proposals and the TEC was completed in June 2009. By this time, the IAF was already ready to undertake Field Evaluations and these were conducted from July 2009 to May 2010, the Air Chief said.

Thereafter the IAF has completed the analysis of results and compiled an exhaustive report well in time. The Staff Evaluation report was submitted on 30 July 2010.

"In my opinion, considering the number of vendors involved and the complex nature of evaluations, there has not been any inordinate delay. We have been able to achieve our objectives well within the stipulated time frame", he added.

 

[sancho]

Not the first time you've resorted to deception, here is my quote in its entirety. You've quoted me out of context to confuse and deceive the readers.

Not really, you said that the F16 and F18SH demonstrated SC and that's plain wrong, because they didn't proved it in any real config unlike at least EF and Gripen NG, but now you admit that they can't.

Next, I'm no expert on JF-17 I've neither followed its development nor taken any interest in the aircraft. But according to wiki, JF-17 production run began in June 2009 and in it first international appearance in Farnborough 2010 the WMD-7 laser designation pod was prominently displayed along with the JF-17.

So if you don't know it, why did you mentioned it at all? You just used it to have any argument against the Rafale and the Euro canards and that's what I meant.
Only because a mock up was displayed at an air show, it doesn't meant it is integrated, or operational.

Here is future potential for the F/A-18 E/F the Boeing SuperHornet international road map...

As I already showed you in my comparison of Rafale and SH, that's nothing special! The block 3 upgrade will bring the SH only on a comparable tech and capability level that the Rafale already has, or will get by 2012!

- low RCS
- modern cockpit design
- high T/W ratio
- more range
- spherical MAWS

Boeing only using newer techs that are available now, like the touchscreen displays that's all. And to make it clear, this weapon pod is just a RCS reduction feature and not even close to F15SE, or even a real stealth fighter internal weapon bays! The pod is still an external payload and will be carried on an external pylon, more over the SR AIM 9s will still be carried on the wing tip stations.
Btw, Dassault has already good the funds for the next upgrade and besides a more capable SPECTRA and AESA radar, they are developing new RCS reduction features too. Weapon pods and stealth shapings, as well as RAM treatings for the weapons are reported since years, but I hope for real changes on the airframe itself.