Hi Sancho..Thanks for such a big effort and research u made...
...I have not compare both spec by spec.But what will be the perfect for indian MMRCA selection(looking for the money and time constraint also).
Hi softtech, hi haven't made that comparison just as an reply to your post, but as a common comparison between both fighters, because we were discussing about them in serveral threads. I felt an equal comparison in this thread will answer your points and make the discussion easier.
Here are my comments :
1)As u also mentioned in A to G SH is the best and proven and Rafale is the nearest.As u also know IAF looking to use MMRCA for more of strike fighter role.Leaving aside PAK-FA and mki to A to A role.So it should be the most important factor for MMRCA selection.
Mate we are searching for a multi role fighter and not a simple ground attack fighter, that doesn't mean the fighter must be equally good in all roles, but a credible self defense capability should be available don't you think?
Just think about a possible war situation, 2 x SH and 2 MKIs are engaging 4 x PAF F16s in WVR, do you want the SH to back out and let the MKIs attack them even outnumbered? No matter how important A2G capabilities are, imo the fighter must give an advantage against all possible opponents in A2A too. If we want ground attack fighters that needs other fighters to defend them, we could simply go for more licence build Jaguars, upgrade them with new engines and weapons and let other air superiority fighters cover them. That would be cheaper and the easier than buy new MMRCAs.
2) Rafale with its greater TW ratio has greater aero-dynamic performance.It will have advantage in wvr over SH surely.But look ..IAF not facing Rafale or typhoon.Let the mki and pak-fa handle it.
As I showed in the example, it don't have to be a Rafale, or EF, even PAFs F16s can be a thread for the SH in WVR, because it has the same JHMCS/ AIM 9 combo and when the tech/weapon advantage of the SH is gone, its flight performance will make it inferior. My comparison was in regard to the new B52s, but when we keep in mind that the MLUs will get these weapons and techs to, but are lighter than the new once, they should be even better in dog fights against SH.
Regarding BVR and RCS, check my reply to ganimi kawa please, oh and check the graphic about the SH upgrade too! There is nothing about AESA radar upgrade, because the radar is already one of the best and most proven once. As I pointed out, the upgrade is needed in fields where the SH is inferior to latest fighters on offer, like the Eurocanards.
4) Now as u know SH is cheaper with limited(as much IAF wants) TOT.The already costlier Rafale will cost more with source codes. Do we need source code??Do you know why would IAF need source code spending extra money?
IAF not looking for source code to develop its own radar.Neither france will give us anything core codes to replicate.Parallel process going on for this.
First of all I think you are confusing ToT with source codes here, because ToT will help for further developments, but also to build critical parts.
Without that much ToT of MKI, we would still be dependent on spare supply from Russia like we were with the older Migs. Now we can build the complete MKI in India itself and can maintain them much better than the Migs before (12 years of Flanker service in IAF with 2 crashes only and not a single one cause of maintenance problems, which is even a better rekord than PAF has with their F16s). That's why ToT, especially of critical parts is important for us. Btw, who said that ToT and source codes costs extra? Except the US fighters, all are offered with ToT and source codes!
Now this is more important:
5)We need to make it sure all MMRCA should be delivered in time(by 2020) and in the same price.Unfortunately for me France has lost the credibility for handling big orders for both of these terms.Who will take responsibility if we have to pay more for already costlier Rafale ? What about time?Boeing and all US vendors with their work experience of handling huge orders smoothly will be miles ahead(I mean it) of already low credibility france vendors handling limited Rafale production.This is the most crucial.
That's not correct and I already explained it in the comparison why:
And when will this upgrade be available? Possibly around 2015, if anybody orders and funds it, because so far it was only proposed from Boeing, but neither USN, nor the only export customer Australia has ordered, or cleared it. Rafale on the other side, will have AESA radar, a more cost-effective engine and DDM NG by 2012, when the first F3+ for the French forces will be delivered, so Rafale will be available with full techs way earlier than the SH!
So if all MMRCAs should be delivered till 2020, Dassault have up to 8 years time, while Boeing has only 5 and need to develop and integrate the upgrades first.
Finally I think I should point out the field of costs a bit more, because you seems to forget some things here.
For IAF it will look like this:
F18SH costs = fly away costs + system costs (weapons, spares, training...) + upgrade costs to Block 3 level + costs for building complete new logistic and maintenance routes
Rafale costs = higher fly away costs + system costs (weapons, spares, training...)
The higher Rafale costs per fighter, will be reduced to some extend by the facts that we have way more commonality with the present fleet (MICA, Hammer, Scalp for 51 Mirage 2K-5+ 126 fighters at least, instead of just 126 SHs), as well as already available supply routes and they need no further upgrades to offer latest techs. If we can customise the Rafale with Kaveri- Snecma engine and Indian weapons, the costs can be further reduced, not to mention if we can add Indian weapons for more variety and cost-effectiveness. Can you still say that the Rafale deal will be clearly costlier? I can't, but what I can say is, that it offers more advantages for our forces and industry!
... If you clearly see the upgrades going on (Jaguar, Mig 27, Mirage and Mig29 SMT) all are getting there life extended for a decade and half.. And Jaguar and Mig27 are purely ground attack aircraft.. While Mirage can supplement them...
