Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Oldman1]

Rafale has two small engines, only 18,000 lb thrust each. F-35 has one big engine 40,000 lb thrust. Size wise, F-35 is on par with Rafale.

I'm aware of that. Difference is that because the Rafale has two engines, it has two engines to maintained instead of one.

 

[ultron]

I'm aware of that. Difference is that because the Rafale has two engines, it has two engines to maintained instead of one.

Two small engines or one big engine, should be roughly the same maintenance.

 

[Agent_47]

I'm aware of that. Difference is that because the Rafale has two engines, it has two engines to maintained instead of one.

No of engine does not cut for F35.
Compare MTOW and max engine output.

 

[Oldman1]

No of engine does not cut for F35.
Compare MTOW and max engine output.

What about it?

Rafale

• Loaded weight: 15,000 kilograms (33,000 lb) ()
• Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kilograms (54,000 lb) (B/C/D) ()
• Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
  • Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
• Fuel capacity: 4,700 kg (10,360 lb) internal

F-35

• Max. takeoff weight: 70,000 lb[N 7] (31,800 kg)
• Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 28,000 lbf[623][N 8] (125 kN)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 43,000 lbf[623][624] (191 kN)
• Internal fuel capacity: 18,498 lb (8,382 kg)[620][N 9]

 

[Agent_47]

What about it?

Rafale

• Loaded weight: 15,000 kilograms (33,000 lb) ()
• Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kilograms (54,000 lb) (B/C/D) ()
• Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
  • Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
• Fuel capacity: 4,700 kg (10,360 lb) internal

F-35

• Max. takeoff weight: 70,000 lb[N 7] (31,800 kg)
• Powerplant: 1 × Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 28,000 lbf[623][N 8] (125 kN)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 43,000 lbf[623][624] (191 kN)
• Internal fuel capacity: 18,498 lb (8,382 kg)[620][N 9]

The point is F35 is heavier and single engine output is ~20% higher than rafale. That makes it more costly. Also as F35 is a generation ahead electro optics and stealth optimizations makes it even harder to maintain and acquire .

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Rafale deal update from Business today

It will be a dash to the finishing line if the contract for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force has to be signed during the upcoming visit of French President Francois Hollande in the last week of January. A team of French officials is in India working even a day before Christmas to give final touches to the technical and contractual details of the Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA).

The officials are expected to wrap up technical and contractual ingredients of the purchase within a week. Once these issues are put behind, the negotiators would concentrate on the commercial aspects, highly placed sources told MAIL TODAY.

The commercial negotiations on the final price of the deal are expected to go on for another three weeks, if not more, before the final proposal is placed before the ministries of defence and finance. Whether the contract would be signed during the visit of the French president, who will be the chief guest at the Republic Day parade, is still an open-ended question, though it seems that the two events are not linked. India's mammoth defence requirements and the swift manoeuvrability shown by the government towards accepting new proposals have led to considerable posturing from various powers.

The talks are in advanced stage and the government is satisfied with the way deliberations are going ahead. However, there is no commitment if the deal would be through next month. If it happens, it will be a big statement for India-France strategic ties. With the purchase, the government hopes to tide over the shortage of fighter jets in the Indian Air Force (IAF).

If Rafale deal is moving forward, there is little progress on the proposal to jointly develop a fifth generation fighter with Russia. The stalemate over the whole project continues as the government is now not keen on joint development because of the delays.

Had the original plan to acquire fifth generation fighter jets remained on track, the IAF would have started getting the aircraft from 2017. Since the Prospective Multi-Role Fighter (PMF) - as the proposed fighter is known - is same as Russia's PAK-FA which is already flying, India is keen to junk the joint development programme.

It had sought access to PAK-FA so that it could get the The commercial negotiations on the final price of the Rafale deal are expected to go on for another three weeks, if not more, before the final proposal is placed before the ministries of defence and finance.

Russians have still not taken any call on the proposal. Not much movement is expected on the project during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's ongoing visit to Russia.

Despite exploring other options for acquisition of military hardware, India has placed enough in the Russian baskets. It will go for the purchase of the Russian cutting edge S 400 air defence system expected to be worth Rs 40,000 crore. India is also keen to have on lease another nuclear submarine.

The officials said that many countries are offering equipment to India and are keen to take advantage of the "Make in India" scheme. New Delhi is weighing it options before taking a call. One of the areas that is being actively pursued is fulfilling the requirement of large number of drones.

Sources said that all the options are on table including exploring foreign sources like Israel and the US. There are issues in dealing with the US as it wants compliance to Missile Technology Control Regime and ways are being found to sort out the issue

Rafale deal in final lap ahead of French President Francois Hollande's India visit

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Confirmed: Rafale deal will be signed on 25th Jan when Prez Hollande arrives in India

India, France may sign deal for 36 Rafale jets on January 25 when French President Francois Hollande arrives for Republic day

• 
  

@Abingdonboy @FrenchPilot @SR-91 @anant_s @dadeechi

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Two small engines or one big engine, should be roughly the same maintenance.

The F-35 has problems with the engine requiring a lot of maintenance.

F-35 engine problems - Business Insider

 

[anant_s]

If Rafale deal is moving forward, there is little progress on the proposal to jointly develop a fifth generation fighter with Russia. The stalemate over the whole project continues as the government is now not keen on joint development because of the delays.

I think, its the right move.
Focusing on one platform at a ttime is right thing to do. Let us concentrate on Rafale and when in 5 years from now when Rafale is inducted and integrated properly with (as i believe) domestic production of Rafale underway, we can focus on PAK FA derivative.
By that time, things would be far clear on that front and T 50 itself would have matured.

 

[anant_s]

A project of such complexity as co-developing a fifth generation fighter jet shall have a lead time of at least 10 years from initiation to full operational capability. If we want it tomorrow, we have to start today. The hold-up today is prompted in part by delays in closing the contract all these years and now you want to add to the delays?

i'm not contesting the timeframe, the issue is Russia's commitment to FGFA. there are significant differences between PAK FA and FGFA and unless IAF is confident that the final product meets its requirements, i don't see ant merit in committing billions of USD to the program.
Please note that as on today there is nothing like FGFA and even PAK FA is far from mature design.
I agree to your point that this can be rectified only by investing time, money and research but i get a feeling, Russia at this point is interested to develop PAK FA to suit its requirements rather tham bothering much about FGFA.

 

[anant_s]

How is Russia's commitment to FGFA the 'real issue'? Do explain.

Read recent news.
Russia is asking India to buy PAK FA while remaining silent on FGFA.
When India committed to program, it was for FGFA not PAK FA.
What does that tell?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-rafale-deal-in-january/videoshow/50334211.cm s
Link for the video http:// cdnbakmi.kaltura.com/p/303932/sp/30393200/serveFlavor/flavorId/0_32b78khz/name/0_32b78khz.mp4
(remove the first blank)
You guys gonna love this video

I quote the reporter saying
Indian DM MP is hopeful that India will negotiate the price upto

25% less than from 105 Mn Euros to 75 Mn Euros each for

supply of full consignment of fighters to the IAF .

You got the flyaway price here sureshot and that will be in the range of $ 82 Mn for each jet

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Indo-French Draft Contract On Rafale Purchase Ready

Indo-French Draft Contract On Rafale Purchase Ready
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, December 28, 2015 @ 08:18 AM

Dassault Rafale fighter during Aero India airshow 2015

A draft contract between India and France for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jet is ready, according to local media reports.

According to the draft contract, the first fighter jet must be supplied in the first three years after the deal has been finalized, local media reported Sunday.

India is hopeful of negotiating a price cut of up to 25 per cent in the purchase costing about US $82 million each instead of US $115 million. Indian Air Force will receive all the 36 fighters in seven years after signing the deal.

India and France are likely to sign the deal for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft on the eve of French President François Hollande’s visit to India for the Republic Day celebrations.

The Indian MoD had earlier this month said that France had agreed to reinvest 50 per cent of the contract on the Rafale fighter in India.

A top Industry source, meanwhile, said that a 50 per cent offset on the contract is an overestimation. The 50 per cent figure was applicable when the contract was being negotiated for 126 aircraft. Now that the final figure is only for 36 aircrafts, the offset figure will naturally be less.

Dassault is in talks with various Indian corporates about being possible offsets partner at this stage. The offsets partner, out of the main contract, will only be decided upon after the final inter-governmental deal is concluded.

 

[rockstarIN]

So first Rafe will come before end of 2018!

 

[#hydra#]

Negotiation for just 36 pieces itself draged to this many years,frenchies gonna screw us badlywhen it comes to its possible future upgrades.