Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[halloweene]

Dont expect news before end of july. I'll try to get some hearsays at le Bourget.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

July seems to be also the time when PM Modi is in Russia for his visit and meeting.. Hearing Russians had explicitely said they also want some major purchases finalised to showcase they are India's primary partners. In short they want India to purchase Russian arms... Also it seems Putin had been mighty pleased with downsizing of Rafale deal and russian state offices are quick to point it as fallout of Mistral and India swinging its biggest order downsizing in response to Mistral fiasco.. BTW, Russians had thrown in everything for India to choose- New subs , new ships, new long ranged SAMs.. (S300/400), Armata platform, PAKFA program finalisation, Su35, etc etc .. The list is getting longer..

An important point is if the mentality of MOD and Indian PMO establishment is what DM Parrikkar said before about choices available in a shopping mart and affordability.. the chances of Russian arms increases especially the jets as its comparatively lower priced then western counterparts... Not comparing quality parameters atm of course. or the lifetime cost too.

@halloweene
Do you think Dassault can still swing the Indian order and perhaps a much bigger future order if
1. Dassault under French government orders participates in the LCA program sincerely
2. It can offer the M88-12 engine TOT package for the MK2 program and uprate it to meet IAF needs
3. It can also then try to corner the AMCA engine partner

The points 2 and 3 are direct counters to USA and GE program who are ready to assemble engines in their new plant in Pune, India for all such programs but India is wanting the full TOT..

4. Do you think only way forward would be the more participation in Indian programs in light platform (since Mirage is now no more in Dassault to do list)?
5. Any murmurs about the so called local JV with Indian companies for Make In India Initiative?
6. A news report came out few days back about Dassault keen on further 18 follow on orders making it 36+18=54 jets for India.. Is that all Dassault forsee as sale possibility wrt India? Does that mean the strategic evaluator in the board room believes the market for Dassault is very limited with customer India may be bcz of price?
7.Whats the ereal price now being offered for the 36 jets or whatever jets package.. the rumoured price of course negotiated with jet cost +weapons cost+after sales package? recent articles in Indian media seems to suggest a coterie of lobbyists and perhaps news reports are being used to defame Dassault wrt to price point. A certain Ajai Shukla in Business Standard column or our Bharat Karnad had been very vocal but Mr Shukla had ben very active with news reports about price and unfeasible proposition of Rafale and 36 deal by PM Modi.. So why not a bit more clarity to Indian press that these figures are bogus and quoted much higher to burst the baloon they are floating among Indian people and also enhance Dassault image thererby swinging public opinion.. (well honestly Dassault PR team seems too laid back to my much disliking.. a proper word which sounds to me better is LAZY.. lol). Dassault does much less to actually keep up in the propaganda warfare thereby always getting divided opinions or much negative fallouts..

 

[Stephen Cohen]

BTW, Russians had thrown in everything for India to choose- New subs , new ships, new long ranged SAMs.. (S300/400), Armata platform, PAKFA program finalisation, Su35, etc etc .. The list is getting longer..

We can hope for some good news on PAKFA and more Su 30 MKI
ie upgraded ones

Armata will have to wait for at least five years till T 72 are to be replaced

 

[PARIKRAMA]

We can hope for some good news on PAKFA and more Su 30 MKI
ie upgraded ones

Armata will have to wait for at least five years till T 72 are to be replaced

exactly my feelings brother..its too early to think Armata for India but then you never know whats in store really..
A substantial progress in PAKFA and Super30 program is really the need of the hour. Perhaps A new or better powerplant for Su30 MKI which can offer better hours in all front?

 

[halloweene]

July seems to be also the time when PM Modi is in Russia for his visit and meeting.. Hearing Russians had explicitely said they also want some major purchases finalised to showcase they are India's primary partners. In short they want India to purchase Russian arms... Also it seems Putin had been mighty pleased with downsizing of Rafale deal and russian state offices are quick to point it as fallout of Mistral and India swinging its biggest order downsizing in response to Mistral fiasco.. BTW, Russians had thrown in everything for India to choose- New subs , new ships, new long ranged SAMs.. (S300/400), Armata platform, PAKFA program finalisation, Su35, etc etc .. The list is getting longer..

An important point is if the mentality of MOD and Indian PMO establishment is what DM Parrikkar said before about choices available in a shopping mart and affordability.. the chances of Russian arms increases especially the jets as its comparatively lower priced then western counterparts... Not comparing quality parameters atm of course. or the lifetime cost too.

@halloweene
Do you think Dassault can still swing the Indian order and perhaps a much bigger future order if
1. Dassault under French government orders participates in the LCA program sincerely
2. It can offer the M88-12 engine TOT package for the MK2 program and uprate it to meet IAF needs
3. It can also then try to corner the AMCA engine partner

The points 2 and 3 are direct counters to USA and GE program who are ready to assemble engines in their new plant in Pune, India for all such programs but India is wanting the full TOT..

4. Do you think only way forward would be the more participation in Indian programs in light platform (since Mirage is now no more in Dassault to do list)?
5. Any murmurs about the so called local JV with Indian companies for Make In India Initiative?
6. A news report came out few days back about Dassault keen on further 18 follow on orders making it 36+18=54 jets for India.. Is that all Dassault forsee as sale possibility wrt India? Does that mean the strategic evaluator in the board room believes the market for Dassault is very limited with customer India may be bcz of price?
7.Whats the ereal price now being offered for the 36 jets or whatever jets package.. the rumoured price of course negotiated with jet cost +weapons cost+after sales package? recent articles in Indian media seems to suggest a coterie of lobbyists and perhaps news reports are being used to defame Dassault wrt to price point. A certain Ajai Shukla in Business Standard column or our Bharat Karnad had been very vocal but Mr Shukla had ben very active with news reports about price and unfeasible proposition of Rafale and 36 deal by PM Modi.. So why not a bit more clarity to Indian press that these figures are bogus and quoted much higher to burst the baloon they are floating among Indian people and also enhance Dassault image thererby swinging public opinion.. (well honestly Dassault PR team seems too laid back to my much disliking.. a proper word which sounds to me better is LAZY.. lol). Dassault does much less to actually keep up in the propaganda warfare thereby always getting divided opinions or much negative fallouts..

I'll do my best to get answers. As you guess it will be difficult, DA is quite a secrecive company and usually consider that communication is client's privilege. What i can say is Safran (maker of M-88) has scheduled a joint venture with an indian company (probably Bharat Forge). About cost, it is difficult. For example, the first Rafales for India would probably be horrendous. Because you need to set up maintenance, simulators, etc. etc.

Ajai Shukla was denied a requested backseat flight on Rafale and since is hating DA. I wouldn't say he is dishonest, just i suppose he is hearing wrong sources and them only.

 

[anant_s]

What i can say is Safran (maker of M-88) has scheduled a joint venture with an indian company (probably Bharat Forge).

Can u please elaborate, if i get it right, this is for domestic manufacture/assembly of M 88 engines for Rafales touted for India or is there more to the agreement?

 

[IND151]

Sweden’s Gripen back on IAF’s radar for light combat planes | idrw.org

 

[halloweene]

Can u please elaborate, if i get it right, this is for domestic manufacture/assembly of M 88 engines for Rafales touted for India or is there more to the agreement?

I can't elaborate more, simply because i don't know more. But afaik your guess is correct.

 

[IND151]

Diverging statements on India's Rafale buy

How many Rafales will the IAF buy?

Trappier

“[The number] is under negotiation. The Indian Air Force needs many more than 36 planes. There is an immediate need for 36… They have an urgent operational requirement which does not allow time needed to set up the license [for production in India], so they asked for 36 quickly.”

Parrikar

On April 13 to Doordarshan: “It may be worked out that we will buy another 90 Rafales… The ‘Make in India’ part will be decided only after government-to-government talks”.

Later in the same interview: “We must remember that Rafale is a top-end, multi-role fighter… but it is quite expensive. When you talk of 126 aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore”.

At Aaj Tak Conclave on May 21: “By buying 36 Rafale fighters at a price less than the earlier tender for 126 aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”.



How long for delivery?

Trappier

“[The] production time — three years. That is quicker than building under license and completing the negotiations. The problem is not the three years. Buying 36 built in France will be faster than setting up complex production under license…”

“I hope [the 36-Rafale contract with] India will be signed by the end of the year. The decision to go to a sale on a government-to-government basis will help speed things up.”

Parrikar

On April 11 in Goa: Rafales will be delivered to the IAF within two years.

Joint statement after Modi-Hollande meeting on April 10

The delivery of 36 Rafales “would be in [a] time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of the IAF”.



Production schedule

Trappier

“Today we are [building one Rafale] per month and we will stay at 11 [per year] for the next two or three years as the contracts signed with Egypt and Qatar can stand as substitutes for the French services. The big change comes when the third contract is signed, assuming the contract will be significant. For example, if we win the 36 for India, I will need to increase production. That depends on the Indian contract being signed.

“There will be zero delivery for the French [Air Force] from next year. There will effectively be a suspension — not a cancellation — with deliveries back again from 2020 after four years.”


How much will the Rafale cost?

Trappier

“I remember in [South] Korea the Rafale cost less than the F-15… The euro has fallen against the dollar, so the price of French planes has fallen against American planes… Today there is a mobilization of the French defense and foreign ministries, perhaps there was less in the past. There is a president's commitment toward export that goes back years, and the result is there. It's France that wins.”

Joint statement after Modi-Hollande meeting on April 10

Modi and Hollande “agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway…”

Parrikar

On May 26, to India Today TV: Rafale will cost less than what Dassault had quoted in its commercial bid in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender. Dassault would also offer offsets worth 50 per cent of the contract cost.
Broadsword: Dassault chief speaks on Rafale sale to India, contradicts Parrikar on several aspects

 

[sathya]

Still all the niggles ...

 

[Hindustani78]

Rafale jet sale to India could be concluded in 2-3 months: French Defence Minister - The Economic Times
By Reuters | 16 Jun, 2015, 08.44PM IST

LE BOURGET, FRANCE: India's purchase of 36 French Rafale military fighter jets could be concluded within two or three months, Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said on Tuesday.

The deal, unveiled in India in April, came after manufacturer Dassault Aviation won its first export order for the jets in February from Egypt. Since then, Qatar has also placed an order and talks are under way with Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.

"I'll be going to India very soon to see how things are coming along, but I have no concerns it will happen," Le Drian said at the Paris Airshow.

 

[Hindustani78]

Rafale deal: French defence minister to visit India again | Zee News
Last Updated: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 13:18
New Delhi: French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will visit India soon as the two countries work towards finalising the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Defence sources said French Defence Minister is likely to arrive in India soon to carry forward the talks on the Rafale jets. They did not put a timeline to his visit.

Drian vistied India last month also.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had last month said that talks would be completed in "2-3 months".

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced his decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets during a visit to France in April, a deal worth an estimated USD 8 billion.

The government has set up a committee headed by Air Marshal SB P Sinha who is undertaking the government-to-government negotiations with France for procurement of Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

India has decided to buy only 36 Rafale fighter jets scrapping the earlier plan to acquire 126 of the French aircraft on grounds of huge cost.

Parrikar had termed as "economically unviable" the previous UPA government's USD 20 billion deal for purchase of the 126 Rafale fighter planes more than three years after France's Dassault Aviation was declared the lowest bidder.

He has said the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.

PTI

Rafale deal: French defence minister to visit India again | Zee News
Last Updated: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 13:18
New Delhi: French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will visit India soon as the two countries work towards finalising the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Defence sources said French Defence Minister is likely to arrive in India soon to carry forward the talks on the Rafale jets. They did not put a timeline to his visit.

Drian vistied India last month also.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had last month said that talks would be completed in "2-3 months".

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced his decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets during a visit to France in April, a deal worth an estimated USD 8 billion.

The government has set up a committee headed by Air Marshal SB P Sinha who is undertaking the government-to-government negotiations with France for procurement of Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

India has decided to buy only 36 Rafale fighter jets scrapping the earlier plan to acquire 126 of the French aircraft on grounds of huge cost.

Parrikar had termed as "economically unviable" the previous UPA government's USD 20 billion deal for purchase of the 126 Rafale fighter planes more than three years after France's Dassault Aviation was declared the lowest bidder.

He has said the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.

PTI

 

[Hindustani78]

25-06-2015
T Suvarna Raju, HAL chairman

About the Rafales yes, there were discussions earlier (of HAL's prominent role in the deal), but for the best interests of the nation, the government decided to directly acquire 36 aircraft in the initial setting.

Don't you think private companies are stealing a march on HAL? Also, does HAL hope to get a pie out of the Dassault deal, when it is signed?

Acquisitions and direct procurements have always been there. The government acquired 50 odd Mirage 2000s in the 1980s. And then we maintained them. That's where HAL steps in.

Possibly, Rafales will also need maintenance and HAL wouldn't be out of place to provide maintenance support to the aircraft. Some percentage of it will be with the frontline. The Air Force will do that. But there is an industrial support required and that's where we come in.

 

[aftab_s81]

Sweden’s Gripen back on IAF’s radar for light combat planes

Isn't this role meant for Tejas? Why Gripen then?

 

[kurup]

Isn't this role meant for Tejas? Why Gripen then?

Yes and there will be no Gripen in IAF .... just a stupid reporting .